Power meter - am I wasting my money?

dork_knight

neeb wrote:

IdentityEnhancer wrote:

Hi, I am new here and in the process of buying Powertap G3 wheelset. The best price I have found is 853Euro on German Wiggle web http://www.wigglesport.de/powertap-g3-laufradsatz-aus-aluminium-legierung-drahtreifen/
Anyway, sending the same item within the EU to Slovakia (where I am from) makes the price increase to 913Euro on Wiggle :shock:
I assume this is their pricing strategy. Is anybody aware of any better price pls? Thanks for help

One option would be to buy a G3 hub and get it built into a wheel locally - there are some great deals on ebay at the moment from US sellers (even once you add on the import taxes).

You could try here and ask about shipping;
http://www.cyclepowermeters.com/powerta ... 2170-p.asp

As neeb says, you could get this built locally on a rim of your choice.

dennisn

Charlie Potatoes wrote:

dennisn wrote:

Charlie Potatoes wrote:

dennisn wrote:

It is a very common misconception in cycling that you can buy better performance.

This is a misconception in itself.
A myth perpetuated on sites like this by people who are unable or unwilling to grasp the benefits of training aids.
Or maybe those who are unable or unwilling to finance them.
IMO of course

I would challenge you to ask TDF riders if it was "training aids" that got them there. Or pro golfers if it was all those gadjets that helped them win the Masters. I think you know it wasn't. :?

AID
noun
1.
help, typically of a practical nature.
"he saw the pilot slumped in his cockpit and went to his aid"
synonyms: assistance, support; More
antonyms: hindrance
financial or material help given to a country or area in need.
"700,000 tons of food aid"
synonyms: donations, funding, contributions, subsidies, benefits, welfare, gifts, grants, relief, charity, financial assistance, subvention, alms, offerings, handouts, largesse; More
a source of help or assistance.
plural noun: aids
"exercise is an important aid to recovery after heart attacks"
2.
historical
a grant of subsidy or tax to a king or queen.
verb
verb: aid; 3rd person present: aids; past tense: aided; past participle: aided; gerund or present participle: aiding
1.
help or support (someone or something) in the achievement of something.
"women were aided in childbirth by midwives"
synonyms: help, assist, abet, come to the aid of, give assistance to, lend a hand

C'mon, you're avoiding the question. Did anyone ever win the Masters or the TDF because of gadjets? :?

charlie_potatoes

dennisn wrote:

C'mon, you're avoiding the question. Did anyone ever win the Masters or the TDF because of gadjets? :?

I refer you to my previous reply

neeb

lyn1 wrote:

neeb wrote:

dennisn wrote:

Hold on now. I seem to recall saying it was "my opinion" that power meters are of no use.
I say let's get together in 10 or 15 years and see where all these things, that were supposed to help you get faster, stronger, tougher, have ended up.

I'll happily bet you a pair of hand-made tubulars (or whatever the equivalent is in 2024) that more people are using power meters in ten years time than are doing so today..

Probably, but only so long as the pro teams suggest there is continuing value in it and it has not been upgraded by an alternative "tool". They are currently "in vogue".

But it's telling you something absolutely fundamental about what you are doing on the bike, i.e. how much energy you are putting into pushing the pedals around. Irrespective of fashion many people are always going to want to have that information available. No alternative tool is going to be able to replace that information, because there isn't anything more fundamental to replace it with. Anything that might replace a power meter is bound to also incorporate it.

imposter2.0

It's easier just to put Dennis on 'ignore' tbh. I've done it before and I've just done it again. Much like wasps do, he will go away eventually if nobody responds.

dennisn

Imposter wrote:

It's easier just to put Dennis on 'ignore' tbh. I've done it before and I've just done it again. Much like wasps do, he will go away eventually if nobody responds.

That's an interesting insight into how you are not able to deal with people who don't share your view. You seem to take things way too personally. Sad.

charlie_potatoes

He cannot hear you Dennis

dennisn

Charlie Potatoes wrote:

He cannot hear you Dennis

Or so he says. :?

meanredspider

Lots of "gadjets" [sic] or gadgets are banned in pro sport because they are too much help. As I understand it, and I'm no golfist, various putters have been banned and I doubt you're likely to be allowed to use range-finding devices either. But I see these as different in some ways to the use of a power meter as a training aid.

Dennisn - do you not accept the principle that understanding the amount of power you are developing is useful as a training resource on the bike? If not, there's no middle ground and your position is probably in a small minority of road cyclists. We can debate all day HOW MUCH use it is - but that's so subjective as to be a pointless discussion - especially where you position is so deeply entrenched and prejudiced.

dennisn

meanredspider wrote:

"...understanding the amount of power you are developing is useful..."

Sure is. If I'm off the back after a couple of laps I'm obviously not "developing" enough power.
If I'm still with the boys at the end I'm "developing" enough to stay with them.
If I pull away for the win then I'm pretty sure I "developed" enough power to win.
How do you judge it? :?

FatTed

careful wrote:

I have ordered a Stages power meter, but I am starting to think I may be wasting my cash. I am not a serious athlete but I like to try to improve my fitness, and I quite enjoy fiddling with numbers and gadgets. Having read Hunter Allen's book and numerous threads on here, I am still unsure whether perceived exertion, heart rate or power zones are the bottom line when deciding how much effort I should put in. I am not really interested in the Stages v other power meter debate, but I would love to hear from riders who have tried power meters and found them to have/not have practical benefits to their performance without too much in depth analysis. Would a less serious rider like myself be better off just sticking with my heart rate meter and PE.

In answer to the Question, I don't think you are wasting your money if it will make your riding more enjoyable, if you like looking at the numbers comparing them to your perceived exertion, HR or whatever. I really like mine, don't really care if its a waste of money, its my money to spend as I wish. Probably better than Crack Cocaine.

Alex_Simmons/RST

dennisn wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

"...understanding the amount of power you are developing is useful..."

Sure is. If I'm off the back after a couple of laps I'm obviously not "developing" enough power.
If I'm still with the boys at the end I'm "developing" enough to stay with them.
If I pull away for the win then I'm pretty sure I "developed" enough power to win.
How do you judge it? :?

It's entirely possible that the reasons for either scenario are related to power, and/or the various ways in which power is applied during the race, and/or other things such as skills, strategy and tactics.

Having knowledge of your power output and some reasonable understanding of basic exercise physiology can help you better understand which of these various factors is more or less influential, and hence where a rider's development priorities are/should be, or help one learn and apply strategy and tactics that are more suitable for their physiology.

meanredspider

dennisn wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

"...understanding the amount of power you are developing is useful..."

Sure is. If I'm off the back after a couple of laps I'm obviously not "developing" enough power.
If I'm still with the boys at the end I'm "developing" enough to stay with them.
If I pull away for the win then I'm pretty sure I "developed" enough power to win.
How do you judge it? :?

That sounds like an approach where you only know if you have enough "gas" in your car if you make it to your destination. If you break down part way then you didn't have enough. But those fuel gauges are really just video games for drivers and don't help you corner or overtake, do they? :roll: Next time you just hope that there's a bit more gas in the tank...

Why bother with size labels on clothes? Just buy some trousers and they're too big then you know you need some smaller ones. No idea what size I had or which other trousers are bigger or smaller so I'll just grab another pair and hope that they fit.

Whereas, if I compete and deliver, say 220W and come mid-field, I know that delivering 220W isn't going to cut the mustard. I can train to deliver better power and then assess myself against the field at my new benchmark. At the beginning of next season, I have a benchmark to work against. Out sprinted to the line? What did I produce and for how long? What do I need to produce to beat the other guy?

Seat of the pants is just that. You wouldn't set out on a 400 mile drive with no idea what's in the tank. Why is this any different?

dennisn

meanredspider wrote:

dennisn wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

"...understanding the amount of power you are developing is useful..."

Sure is. If I'm off the back after a couple of laps I'm obviously not "developing" enough power.
If I'm still with the boys at the end I'm "developing" enough to stay with them.
If I pull away for the win then I'm pretty sure I "developed" enough power to win.
How do you judge it? :?

That sounds like an approach where you only know if you have enough "gas" in your car if you make it to your destination. If you break down part way then you didn't have enough. But those fuel gauges are really just video games for drivers and don't help you corner or overtake, do they? :roll: Next time you just hope that there's a bit more gas in the tank...

Why bother with size labels on clothes? Just buy some trousers and they're too big then you know you need some smaller ones. No idea what size I had or which other trousers are bigger or smaller so I'll just grab another pair and hope that they fit.

Whereas, if I compete and deliver, say 220W and come mid-field, I know that delivering 220W isn't going to cut the mustard. I can train to deliver better power and then assess myself against the field at my new benchmark. At the beginning of next season, I have a benchmark to work against. Out sprinted to the line? What did I produce and for how long? What do I need to produce to beat the other guy?

Seat of the pants is just that. You wouldn't set out on a 400 mile drive with no idea what's in the tank. Why is this any different?

I didn't realize that a power meter would tell you how much gas you have left in your body. Or how much longer you were going to last at the effort you're putting out. I am sure however that your brain is going to give you more than a few hints that you're going to be running out of steam in the very near future. How does a power meter do that? Does a power meter tell you that you finished "mid-field"? Heck, a power meter doesn't even know you were racing. Or climbing. Or even if it was you on the bike. A power meter doesn't KNOW anything. Your brain is a whole lot better at telling you things about cycling and how to race / ride than any piece of equipment you can buy. Have a little faith in yourself and your abilities to find the answers.

imposter2.0

meanredspider wrote:

dennisn wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

"...understanding the amount of power you are developing is useful..."

Sure is. If I'm off the back after a couple of laps I'm obviously not "developing" enough power.
If I'm still with the boys at the end I'm "developing" enough to stay with them.
If I pull away for the win then I'm pretty sure I "developed" enough power to win.
How do you judge it? :?

That sounds like an approach where you only know if you have enough "gas" in your car if you make it to your destination. If you break down part way then you didn't have enough. But those fuel gauges are really just video games for drivers and don't help you corner or overtake, do they? :roll: Next time you just hope that there's a bit more gas in the tank...

Why bother with size labels on clothes? Just buy some trousers and they're too big then you know you need some smaller ones. No idea what size I had or which other trousers are bigger or smaller so I'll just grab another pair and hope that they fit.

Whereas, if I compete and deliver, say 220W and come mid-field, I know that delivering 220W isn't going to cut the mustard. I can train to deliver better power and then assess myself against the field at my new benchmark. At the beginning of next season, I have a benchmark to work against. Out sprinted to the line? What did I produce and for how long? What do I need to produce to beat the other guy?

Seat of the pants is just that. You wouldn't set out on a 400 mile drive with no idea what's in the tank. Why is this any different?

Very well put - but unfortunately, you are trying to reason with someone whose only interest is in adopting a contrary position.

charlie_potatoes

Imposter wrote:

Very well put - but unfortunately, you are trying to reason with someone whose only interest is in adopting a contrary position.

+1

At least he has got you and I in agreement so it's not all bad

neeb

dennisn wrote:

Your brain is a whole lot better at telling you things about cycling and how to race / ride than any piece of equipment you can buy. Have a little faith in yourself and your abilities to find the answers.

Yes, but your brain is better at telling you things the more useful information it has available... You could probably ride and race perfectly well with one eye closed or without knowing anything about the course. If that's what everyone did and we were trying to convince you to ride with both eyes open for enhanced stereoscopic vision and to check the race details to see where all of the corners and hills were, would you go on about how this was all superfluous nonsense and "not riding"?

dennisn

Imposter wrote:

Very well put - but unfortunately, you are trying to reason with someone whose only interest is in adopting a contrary position.

Ummmmm. FORUM

hypster

Dennis,

I have been following this thread with great interest and hoping to learn something about training using a power meter. Basically all your posts have not contributed anything meaningful to the discussion and to just keep justifying your posts by saying this is a forum is frankly the pathetic action of a spoiled child. MeanRedSpider has now backed you in to a corner and basically shot your whole argument down and left you without a leg to stand on.

We get that you don't agree that a power meter is a worthwhile piece of kit so for the love of God, STFU!!!!

dennisn

meanredspider wrote:

... if I compete and deliver, say 220W and come mid-field, I know that delivering 220W isn't going to cut the mustard. I can train to deliver better power and then assess myself against the field at my new benchmark. At the beginning of next season, I have a benchmark to work against. Out sprinted to the line? What did I produce and for how long? What do I need to produce to beat the other guy?

Seat of the pants is just that. You wouldn't set out on a 400 mile drive with no idea what's in the tank. Why is this any different?

Are you saying that when you race you count on your power meter to tell you if you're going to win, place,, or show? How does it know?
During a race don't you get some sort of sense as to how you're doing? How much longer you can hold out at the pace you're running? If you really seem to have a whole lot or pretty much nothing left in your legs? How can you predict how you'll do in a race by a number on your meter? The variables are far to great. Your brain will access the race, your condition, your position in the fray, your odds of finishing ahead of the local strong boys, what you have "left" in the tank, when you need to "sit in" for a lap or three, how big of gears you can push and for how long, whether you should or even can bridge up, etc. I could go on and on but you'll notice one thing. Your power meter isn't going to tell you any of this. It's your "seat of the pants" stuff. Your brain will let you know pretty much all the time whether or not you're "gaining on 'em or in danger of getting blown out the back". No power meter will tell you that.

I will agree that seeing pants size on a tag is very helpful but my brain will tell me if a 32 waist(in that style) is a good fit. Not the tag. Plus all 32's are not the same. At least that's been my experience.

dennisn

hypster wrote:

Dennis,

I have been following this thread with great interest and hoping to learn something about training using a power meter. Basically all your posts have not contributed anything meaningful to the discussion and to just keep justifying your posts by saying this is a forum is frankly the pathetic action of a spoiled child. MeanRedSpider has now backed you in to a corner and basically shot your whole argument down and left you without a leg to stand on.

We get that you don't agree that a power meter is a worthwhile piece of kit so for the love of God, STFU!!!!

So what have you learned about training with a power meter? Please impart whatever great kernels of knowledge you've gotten from all the people chiming in about the wonders of power meters.

As for me I seem to be the lone dissenter here, among a trove of power meter "fans". Don't you ever question the status quo? I sure do and power meters come up way short of all the hype(to me).

ugo.santalucia

Dennis, this is technically trolling, give it a cut, the boys want to play with power, let them play and stop being argumentative

dennisn

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Dennis, this is technically trolling, give it a cut, the boys want to play with power, let them play and stop being argumentative

OK, no problem. You're the mod. 8)
If you could please PM me and explain the difference between trolling and technically trolling. :? :oops:

hypster

When training with a PM does anyone use a heart rate monitor as well or is that redundant now because the PM is a better training tool?

neeb

hypster wrote:

When training with a PM does anyone use a heart rate monitor as well or is that redundant now because the PM is a better training tool?

Most people also use a heart monitor. One of the useful things about power data is that it tells you more about your heart rate data, and visa versa.

Say I do the same ride as I did two days ago at the same power level, but my heart rate today is 5 or 10 beats higher - that might suggest I'm fighting off a bug or just need to rest. I wouldn't know that if I didn't have the power data because for all I know I might have been going harder.

If I'm doing interval sessions (say 2x20) and my HR is consistently lower now than it was a month ago for exactly the same power, I'm probably fitter (and should probably be doing the intervals at a higher level).

Alex_Simmons/RST

dennisn wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

... if I compete and deliver, say 220W and come mid-field, I know that delivering 220W isn't going to cut the mustard. I can train to deliver better power and then assess myself against the field at my new benchmark. At the beginning of next season, I have a benchmark to work against. Out sprinted to the line? What did I produce and for how long? What do I need to produce to beat the other guy?

Seat of the pants is just that. You wouldn't set out on a 400 mile drive with no idea what's in the tank. Why is this any different?

Are you saying that when you race you count on your power meter to tell you if you're going to win, place,, or show? How does it know?
During a race don't you get some sort of sense as to how you're doing? How much longer you can hold out at the pace you're running? If you really seem to have a whole lot or pretty much nothing left in your legs? How can you predict how you'll do in a race by a number on your meter? The variables are far to great. Your brain will access the race, your condition, your position in the fray, your odds of finishing ahead of the local strong boys, what you have "left" in the tank, when you need to "sit in" for a lap or three, how big of gears you can push and for how long, whether you should or even can bridge up, etc. I could go on and on but you'll notice one thing. Your power meter isn't going to tell you any of this. It's your "seat of the pants" stuff. Your brain will let you know pretty much all the time whether or not you're "gaining on 'em or in danger of getting blown out the back". No power meter will tell you that.

I will agree that seeing pants size on a tag is very helpful but my brain will tell me if a 32 waist(in that style) is a good fit. Not the tag. Plus all 32's are not the same. At least that's been my experience.

You are caught up in an extremely limited paradigm of how one can usefully use power data. Seeing power readings on a display during a race are probably the least useful aspect of the data, although not totally useless. There are many other far more useful and practical ways in which the data can be used to hasten the development and performance improvement process, but you are unable or unwilling to recognise these exist, even if you fail to understand them.

Training and racing with power is far far more than the instant display of power numbers and what one might do with such real time information. Having said that, there are some sophisticated applications of such real time data that can have immediate performance benefit, just not in the manner of your limited paradigm.

lochindaal

A good summary here that covesr most of the points raised
http://www.joefrielsblog.com/2014/04/ba ... eters.html

moscowflyer

Just ordered the Stages Ultegra which will be with me tomorrow (as long as their stock levels are showing correctly). Cheapest option for me and as a general commuter/sportive rider who does the odd race and TT, it's probably overkill but I like the extra numbers I'll have to play with. It's all good fun, right?

colinsmith123

Which one to replace my knackered PT?

I have a 7900 DA and the rings are in good nick. The 105 on my winter bike is past it's Use-By date; rings worn out and bearing surface pitted.

I am leaning towards the Stages asethetically, but will still need to buy another 105 chainset for the winter bike.
Quarq looks good and is now available without rings so options there.
I cannot figure out which Power2Max to put in to the equation. Give me a push

All to go on a Cervelo R3SL if that matters.

The money is burning a hole in my pocket and if I'm not careful, will turn in to a sofa.

supermurph09

MoscowFlyer wrote:

Just ordered the Stages Ultegra which will be with me tomorrow (as long as their stock levels are showing correctly). Cheapest option for me and as a general commuter/sportive rider who does the odd race and TT, it's probably overkill but I like the extra numbers I'll have to play with. It's all good fun, right?

Where did you order from? What crank length did you get?