Power meter - am I wasting my money?
Comments
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Markwb79 wrote:Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:dennisn wrote:Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
As for the argument about bike skills/race nouse etc, that's all a red herring. Of course they are important factors but you talk as if having a power meter suddenly means one can't or won't also work on such things. Ironically, the information used wisely can help you realise what your primary development priorities should be, including those related to skills, nouse, execution and so on.
I am not one to disagree with a professional coach to often, maybe its the details.
But I am more inclined to think that bike skills / race nous and things like confidence are very very important to get to the next level.
I have two friends that have bonkers amounts of power (they weigh the same and have the same FTP). But one of them just has a gift for riding in a peloton and being in the right place at the right time.
I am convinced one will make it to some sort of professional level on the road. The other will hopefully end up a pursuit type rider on the track. - Although he would prefer the road.
Can't see where you're disagreeing with him ....0 -
Neither can I.Slowbike wrote:Markwb79 wrote:Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:dennisn wrote:Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
As for the argument about bike skills/race nouse etc, that's all a red herring. Of course they are important factors but you talk as if having a power meter suddenly means one can't or won't also work on such things. Ironically, the information used wisely can help you realise what your primary development priorities should be, including those related to skills, nouse, execution and so on.
I am not one to disagree with a professional coach to often, maybe its the details.
But I am more inclined to think that bike skills / race nous and things like confidence are very very important to get to the next level.
I have two friends that have bonkers amounts of power (they weigh the same and have the same FTP). But one of them just has a gift for riding in a peloton and being in the right place at the right time.
I am convinced one will make it to some sort of professional level on the road. The other will hopefully end up a pursuit type rider on the track. - Although he would prefer the road.
Can't see where you're disagreeing with him ....
I acknowledge their importance, and simply pointed out that having a power meter doesn't imply you don't work on those things. Indeed for the riders mentioned, knowledge of their power capabilities and outputs during races provides additional valuable insight to aid in shaping their development and racing priorities.0 -
Markwb79 wrote:Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:dennisn wrote:Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
As for the argument about bike skills/race nouse etc, that's all a red herring. Of course they are important factors but you talk as if having a power meter suddenly means one can't or won't also work on such things. Ironically, the information used wisely can help you realise what your primary development priorities should be, including those related to skills, nouse, execution and so on.
I am not one to disagree with a professional coach to often, maybe its the details.
But I am more inclined to think that bike skills / race nous and things like confidence are very very important to get to the next level.
I have two friends that have bonkers amounts of power (they weigh the same and have the same FTP). But one of them just has a gift for riding in a peloton and being in the right place at the right time.
I am convinced one will make it to some sort of professional level on the road. The other will hopefully end up a pursuit type rider on the track. - Although he would prefer the road.
You say they have bonkers amount of power but what type of power? Are they better than average on short sharp sprints, or is their 5-10 minute power above average or are they demo 60 minute TTers?
Using the data from a power meter you can determine your strengths and weaknesses. Which will enable you to plug your weaknesses and build upon your strengths.
Using knowledge of your power profile will enable you to develop bike skills and race nous and take you to the next level rather than staying where you are and not improving in a structured way.
I find it fascinating that people refuse to see the benefit in such tools. Its like any tool though, some people make better use of them than others.0 -
Perhaps some people are seeing as THE answer rather than another answer ...BrandonA wrote:I find it fascinating that people refuse to see the benefit in such tools.
it's like that old selling speach - "this software will increase your sales by 20% " .... no, it won't ... but it may HELP you do so ...0 -
BrandonA wrote:Markwb79 wrote:Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:dennisn wrote:Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
As for the argument about bike skills/race nouse etc, that's all a red herring. Of course they are important factors but you talk as if having a power meter suddenly means one can't or won't also work on such things. Ironically, the information used wisely can help you realise what your primary development priorities should be, including those related to skills, nouse, execution and so on.
I am not one to disagree with a professional coach to often, maybe its the details.
But I am more inclined to think that bike skills / race nous and things like confidence are very very important to get to the next level.
I have two friends that have bonkers amounts of power (they weigh the same and have the same FTP). But one of them just has a gift for riding in a peloton and being in the right place at the right time.
I am convinced one will make it to some sort of professional level on the road. The other will hopefully end up a pursuit type rider on the track. - Although he would prefer the road.
You say they have bonkers amount of power but what type of power? Are they better than average on short sharp sprints, or is their 5-10 minute power above average or are they demo 60 minute TTers?
Using the data from a power meter you can determine your strengths and weaknesses. Which will enable you to plug your weaknesses and build upon your strengths.
Using knowledge of your power profile will enable you to develop bike skills and race nous and take you to the next level rather than staying where you are and not improving in a structured way.
I find it fascinating that people refuse to see the benefit in such tools. Its like any tool though, some people make better use of them than others.
They have very similar power profiles. They are on the same pursuit team.
I am a total believer in power meters, I believe they have helped me no end in my performance.
My point was that power isnt a issue with either of these two guys, but there is more to it that just the power.Scott Addict 2011
Giant TCR 20120 -
I doubt Alex is saying racecraft doesn't count for much, it clearly does. Every lab test under the sun apparently said Cav shouldn't even be able to get round a TDF, let alone win stages in it!
What is a bonkers amount of power anyway, Mark?Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com0 -
okgo wrote:I doubt Alex is saying racecraft doesn't count for much, it clearly does. Every lab test under the sun apparently said Cav shouldn't even be able to get round a TDF, let alone win stages in it!
What is a bonkers amount of power anyway, Mark?
~400watts FTPScott Addict 2011
Giant TCR 20120 -
BrandonA wrote:Using the data from a power meter you can determine your strengths and weaknesses. Which will enable you to plug your weaknesses and build upon your strengths.
Couldn't agree less. You don't plug your weaknesses in a sport. You work on them. Your strengths will take care of themselves. You're going about it backwards. :roll:0 -
Well; I finally got the meter and thought some comments might be helpful to anyone who might also be unsure. First, thanks for all the comments, both for and against.
On the + side: The Stages was an absolute breeze to set up - up and running within 5 minutes! Initial feeling is that the main benefit will be more rapid and stable info than my heart monitor gives me. I am already finding it helpful for pacing myself especially on hills and on short intervals.
On the negative side: I have also taken up the trial free offer of Training Peaks software. Great fun and very useful I'm sure. I am thinking of just doing one ride each year and spending the remaining 364 days analysing it and producing tables and graphs. Seriously though - one downside is that it could become too much information - need to be clear about my objectives.
Overall view so far: I think it is helpful for less serious riders like me; I dont expect it to bring huge performance improvements on its own, but it may motivate me to ride/train more efficiently and it adds a bit more interest to my rides. I am fortunate that I can pay for it without too much sacrifice. Nice to have; not need to have.0 -
Thanks for the update mate, come back in a months time and tell us more:)0
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You could also use Golden Cheetah for analysis.0
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I much prefer Golden Cheetah over TP/WKO+. Try it before you spend any money.0
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dennisn wrote:BrandonA wrote:Using the data from a power meter you can determine your strengths and weaknesses. Which will enable you to plug your weaknesses and build upon your strengths.
Couldn't agree less. You don't plug your weaknesses in a sport. You work on them. Your strengths will take care of themselves. You're going about it backwards. :roll:
I don't see what you are disagreeing with? Is it because I used the word "plug" and you use the word "build"? Surely you can see that you are picking a semantics and not the meaning of the post. I think instead of me going about it backwards you are only seeing half the point. You have to improve your weaknesses but not at the expense of your strengths.
Have you read the book "Training and Racing with a Power Meter - 2nd Edition"? My statement was based around this area.
I ask as in chapter four entitled "Determining Your Strengths and Weaknesses" you build a power profile which lets you determine as the title suggests your strengths and weaknesses based on actual data rather than guesstimates.
What is the point of the power profile? The author of the book states "If however, valid standards were available for power across different durations that represented different physiological characteristics or abilities rather than simply racing categories, then it would be possible, we reasoned, to be able to see how a cyclist was doing in one area compared with how he or she was doing in other areas, rahter than how he or she was doing in comparison with others. This is where the true power of the Power Profiling comes in. When you know your strengths and weaknesses, you can develop a program to improve in the weak areas, and that is when you will see real progress. And it may even be possible to identify events where you could be expected to achieve the greatest success, thereby build on your strengths."0 -
BrandonA wrote:dennisn wrote:BrandonA wrote:Using the data from a power meter you can determine your strengths and weaknesses. Which will enable you to plug your weaknesses and build upon your strengths.
Couldn't agree less. You don't plug your weaknesses in a sport. You work on them. Your strengths will take care of themselves. You're going about it backwards. :roll:
I don't see what you are disagreeing with? Is it because I used the word "plug" and you use the word "build"?
OK. I took it to mean that you are simply putting a patch on your weaknesses instead of improving them. I will say that to improve in any sport you need to concentrate on weak areas, not strengths. Strengths will take care of themselves. Make your weaknesses become your strengths and then work again to make your weaknesses your strengths.0 -
Got a power meter?
Want to find out what your strengths and weaknesses are? (Quite easily)
During your recovery week, as mentioned below, read chapter 4 of the book "Training and Racing with a Power Meter - 2nd Edition" , then at the end do the tests as described and 'plug' the numbers in to here..
http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/(X(1)S(qfl3lz4cuu0eg013njqtciyt))/FP.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1
Power meter - did I waste my money?
No. I could not have achieved the levels of fitness that I have without it. (Nobody is going to convince me otherwise, so don't bother replying). My weakness; sustaining and repeating VO2Max intervals. Especially on the turbo for some reason.
Yes. The 2nd hand PT I have has packed up and will no doubt cost a small fortune to fix. On the other tab on my browser is a 'BUY' button for a Stages PM.. Aaaaargghhhhhhhh..........Live to ski
Ski to live0 -
Barbarossa wrote:I much prefer Golden Cheetah over TP/WKO+. Try it before you spend any money.
Use Golden Cheetah and also keep my Training Peaks account to match. As and when I get the freebie codes from TP to upgrade for a week, their PMC correlates to GC's PMC very accurately...0 -
JGSI wrote:Barbarossa wrote:I much prefer Golden Cheetah over TP/WKO+. Try it before you spend any money.
Use Golden Cheetah and also keep my Training Peaks account to match. As and when I get the freebie codes from TP to upgrade for a week, their PMC correlates to GC's PMC very accurately...
Sounds like 15 year olds sitting in a basement playing video games and becoming slugs, instead of cyclists riding and racing.0 -
dennisn wrote:JGSI wrote:Barbarossa wrote:I much prefer Golden Cheetah over TP/WKO+. Try it before you spend any money.
Use Golden Cheetah and also keep my Training Peaks account to match. As and when I get the freebie codes from TP to upgrade for a week, their PMC correlates to GC's PMC very accurately...
Sounds like 15 year olds sitting in a basement playing video games and becoming slugs, instead of cyclists riding and racing.
Whereas you sound like a real authority on training and performance issues.0 -
Imposter wrote:dennisn wrote:JGSI wrote:Barbarossa wrote:I much prefer Golden Cheetah over TP/WKO+. Try it before you spend any money.
Use Golden Cheetah and also keep my Training Peaks account to match. As and when I get the freebie codes from TP to upgrade for a week, their PMC correlates to GC's PMC very accurately...
Sounds like 15 year olds sitting in a basement playing video games and becoming slugs, instead of cyclists riding and racing.
Whereas you sound like a real authority on training and performance issues.
C'mon now. Tell me that it doesn't sound like a couple of teenagers playing video games. :?
To me this is not actually doing cycling, it's playing at cycling.
I have a nephew who once told me that the video game he was playing was a very realistic war game. I asked him if any of his friends had actually had their legs blown off or their brains leaking out the backs of their heads. He looked at me like I was crazy and went on playing his "realistic" war game. He's older now but does have some strong thumbs, I would guess. :roll:0 -
Idiot, stop the trolling Dennis.. some of us use our training data pretty damn seriously.
I am not fckin about riding and training hard on my bike for the fun of it sometimes.. a race or a TT bloody well hurts.. but it is what I enjoy doing as best as I can... even as a knckrd and oft beat up vet.0 -
Last time I checked the power meter wasn't pushing the pedals for me..dennisn wrote:C'mon now. Tell me that it doesn't sound like a couple of teenagers playing video games. :?
To me this is not actually doing cycling, it's playing at cycling.
You must see the glaring logical fallacy in your argument surely, or are you genuinely trolling? It's the same one Henri Desgrange made when he was talking about gears. Except his point actually made marginally more sense:Isn t it better to
triumph by the strength of your muscles than
by the artifice of a derailleur? We are getting
soft.
.0 -
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JGSI wrote:.. some of us use our training data pretty damn seriously.
I'm sure that you do. My point is that it's NOT training. It's playing at training. Which is fine if that's your thing, but like video war games there really is no reality(i.e. blown off legs) in the wars that are fought. It's all just a little screen in front of you.0 -
Once you accept that a bike is a technological aid, I'm not sure how you can artificially draw a line. Road biking is notoriously conservative which is funny given its history.
And, of course, training with a PM isn't "playing" at training. You can't kid yourself how well you did when the bald facts are there in front of youROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0 -
dennisn wrote:JGSI wrote:.. some of us use our training data pretty damn seriously.
I'm sure that you do. My point is that it's NOT training. It's playing at training. Which is fine if that's your thing, but like video war games there really is no reality(i.e. blown off legs) in the wars that are fought. It's all just a little screen in front of you.
Maybe you should restrict yourself to posting on topics you know something about? Alternatively, just give it a rest and let people read about and discuss these issues without being interrupted by your constant irrelevances and misconceptions on issues which appear to be way beyond your capacity for understanding.0 -
Imposter wrote:dennisn wrote:JGSI wrote:.. some of us use our training data pretty damn seriously.
I'm sure that you do. My point is that it's NOT training. It's playing at training. Which is fine if that's your thing, but like video war games there really is no reality(i.e. blown off legs) in the wars that are fought. It's all just a little screen in front of you.
Maybe you should restrict yourself to posting on topics you know something about? Alternatively, just give it a rest and let people read about and discuss these issues without being interrupted by your constant irrelevances and misconceptions on issues which appear to be way beyond your capacity for understanding.
Sorry, but I feel that I do contribute to this forum by delivering an alternative view, whether popular or not. It would seem that useless some agrees with your views, well, they are just wrong. And that's OK with me but you fail to extend that courtesy to anyone unless they believe in you. A forum would be a pretty boring place if we all agreed, and not really a forum at all. My whole point in all this is, play all the video war games(so to speak) that you want but don't believe that those games have any relation to taking a bullet in the chest or crashing badly in a crit. If you get my meaning.0 -
dennisn wrote:If you get my meaning.
This is just it though Dennis.
I get the fact that you are 'old school' and I respect that.
I don't get the rest of what you are saying at all though. :?"You really think you can burn off sugar with exercise?" downhill paul0 -
dennisn wrote:Sorry, but I feel that I do contribute to this forum by delivering an alternative view,
It's certainly 'alternative' - unfortunately, it's also completely and utterly irrelevant. Like I said, stick to what you know.0 -
But, in this particular instance, you seem to come across as though you don't even know what a power meter is! There are loads of analogies but let's use motorsport because you often talk about racing: I don't need oil pressure, oil temp, water temp etc in order to outbrake someone into a hairpin. I don't need to know my lap times, G-meter data, or GPS performance data, to take a defensive line into the next corner. BUT all these things help me - the temps/pressures to reassure me that the car isn't about to fail and the other data to help me understand which lines and braking points give me the fastest laps. In your world, all of this would seem to be somehow akin to a video game. That's nonsense. Same is true of the power meter. I rode today on a very flat and very windy century ride here in N Holland. Heading into the wind I was struggling to maintain much above 20kmh and heading back the same power saw me averaging over 40kmh. Firstly, power helped me gauge my effort. It also helped me push that bit harder. It also measured what I achieved (my best 20minute effort improved by 15W). I've ridden a lot but this data now gives me a really good insight into what I'm doing in some very variable conditions and it also shows me the progress I'm making. None of this is video game stuff. I still rode the century - I still feel tired but I also KNOW how much effort I put in - really difficult to judge in these conditions.ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH0
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Imposter wrote:dennisn wrote:Sorry, but I feel that I do contribute to this forum by delivering an alternative view,
It's certainly 'alternative' - unfortunately, it's also completely and utterly irrelevant. Like I said, stick to what you know.
To you it's "....completely and....". To me it may or may not turn out to be the truth but at least I question the idea that it's a "must have" tool. You don't bother to question that idea, you simply bought into it because, most likely, you saw some pros with them on their bikes or a pretty picture of one somewhere or believed the hype. Don't get so upset when someone challenges your views. It's not a pesonal attack, like if I snuck up behind you and smacked ya wilh a ball bat. I love to challenge the status quo. I'm also too old to not call a spade a spade if, in my view, it is indeed a spade. Hell, as far as you know I may even believe in power meters and am simply questioning the strength of others beliefs.
Also what do you think I know that I should stick to? If anything?0
