Improving pedal stroke
Comments
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"Your confusion has been evident for a long time, but it's mostly of your own doing since you make up what people say, instead of reading what they actually write."
The confusion is of your doing. It has been like trying to get blood out of a stone to get you to put up your views on this subject. Prior to this thread I can't remember you actually doing this.
"Since you have no experience of how I might coach or what I might want a client to focus attention on, then your desire to speculate shines through once more."
?? I was simply replying to your previous response "My programs have "pedalling drills" (not that I call them that) where it makes sense."
>> So you do have your clients do pedalling drills, you just can't bring yourself to call them that.
"Again, you make up stuff about me, my knowledge, experience and methodologies."
?? You said "Of course pedalling improves the more your ride and race and get fitter. I've never said otherwise."
So you think it gets better but seem to assume it does so automatically, as if by magic. Strange, even stranger if you do as you say have some of your clients do pedal drills.
"Most would have a better time if they had a better fitting bike, rode more beforehand, gained experience in riding well with others and how to safely and effectively use their equipment, and became much fitter. Those priorities far outweigh thinking about how they pedal."
Now you are speculating. While you are an OK coach I don't believe you have actually ridden in or seen anywhere near as many riders in sportives as I have. Many share fundamental flaws in technique which, clearly, all their training has not prepared them for.
Also you imply that it's an either/or between doing as you suggest and working on pedalling. It's not, you can, indeed should, do both.
"But then since you have such pedalling chart info on all these pros and amateur cyclists, perhaps you'd care to share them so we can view these two populations."
See Wattbike polar analysis charts. In the not too distant future I expect similar results will be produced from the new generation of power meters.
"Um, what? Sorry you've lost me here. Your Zulu / Pygmy metaphor makes absolutely no sense. Who said anything about DNA or being defeatist?"
Sorry to lose you. The point is that,given pros pedal a bike better than amateurs, there will be 2 reasons why this is so
- They are born that way
- They have learned to get better
In fact truth is it will be a mix of the 2. So unless you believe pedalling is 100% genetic, which even you don't, it makes sense to try learning to improve.
"Wattbike..Here, let me lay this to rest...."
No, what I am saying is you should take some time to understand:
1. what is actually being measured (because it's apparent you don't understand it)
2. whether such measurements represent meaningful, useful intelligence and in what way it is meaningful, useful intelligence e.g. whether there are any correlations of interest (which are often nice to know but not always helpful), and then more importantly, if there any are causations of note
3. what, if any, training intervention makes sense based on the causations that have been established"
Thanks for the condescension. Here let me lay this to rest. You have an opinion from little practical experience, based on what you admit, is a non typical case.
I on the the other hand have experience of using a Wattbike regularly for many years.
It's you who doesn't understand what is being measured.
- Yes the data is not 100% perfect. The design effectively means that noise is generated. So I have seen that if you only pedal with one leg you get some "data" for the other
- While not perfect this is quite normal for any measurement device. You are extremely naive if you think otherwise
- What is important is that when real signals are generated they rise at a sufficiently high level above the noise to produce a consistent reliable discernible pattern.
-> This is the case for a Wattbike. Changes, conscious or unconscious, result in instantaneous changes in the display that reflect exactly what has happened.
->The history of data is consistent and over time reflects clear trends that correlate with other measures (in this case, for example elite riders produce, as would be predicted, quite different patterns than unskilled).
- If your analysis was correct all that would be produced would be unusable noise that would correlate with nothing.
At the risk of confusing you I suggest you do some research on how other measurement devices work. Previously you said "Because of the way it measures forces (i.e. downstream of the cranks), you need to be VERY careful in how you interpret such data as it can be quite misleading wrt what's actually going on."
This downstream factor is perfectly normal. In and of itself it does not mean that a device cannot measure something. The important criteria are that it produces discernible signals that correlate with what is being measured and are consistent over time. To give a famous example. The LHC is incapable of measuring the presence or otherwise of Higgs bosons directly. What it can do is create conditions where they should exist and then measure the effects of their presence on other particles which are extremely downstream. By your criteria the LHC would never have been built.
To give another example closer this topic. I guess you would say the same regarding the use of HR for training. In this I agree with you, clearly if you can use a power meter to directly measure your work that is better. But it does not therefore follow that using HR is completely pointless.
In my experience a Wattbike measures the "real" situation regards pedal dynamics far more rapidly, consistently and accurately than does HR measure workload. So it's not perfect but way better than nothing.
All this being said, I don't expect to change your mind on this subject. I have some respect for you based on previous times when we were on the same side of arguments wrt to power based training.
However I remain totally confused about your opinion on this subject. I used to think that you thought pedalling was entirely inherited. Your views made sense then if you believe this then clearly spending time trying to improve it would be wasted.
But now I understand to be saying that pedalling can improve, that you even include "pedalling" drills in some of your own training plans but say when others, including the likes of Bradley Wiggins and Hunter Allen say do likewise they are wrong.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
Imposter wrote:bahzob wrote:If it is works for Bradley Wiggins it seems like blinkered hubris of the highest order to state it can't work for them.
This is everything that is wrong with your argument - right here. Alex has science on his side, whereas you have second-hand anecdote. So it's hugely patronising and highly ironic for you to refer to Alex's view of science as 'touchingly-naive'...
LOL. Love your view that "science" consists of men in white coats doing experiments in labs even when the protocols they follow are a joke.
The important thing about science is producing theories consistent with phenomena observed in the real world and can be tested by well conducted experiments.
My theory re pedalling is that it is just like any other skill, part genetic, part learned.
Like any other skill the part that is learned can be improved by focussed drills and observing/emulating those who are proficient in it.
Even Alex seems to believe this though he is somewhat confused/hazy on the details
What's your theory exactly?Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
bahzob wrote:What's your theory exactly?
My theory is that you are barking up the wrong tree, looking for an improvement which won't deliver very much.0 -
Can anyone elucidate why this section of the forum is so litigious?
I have seen people having a go at each other about synthetic lubricants for diesel engines and I don't think here we are far off
Keep your post simple, get to the point, no need to embellish it with some extra hidden insultleft the forum March 20230 -
Ugo - this is one of those topics unfortunately. There are several others just like it.0
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Passions run high here; to pedal in circles or not - that is the question…..0
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Yes, but put it in perspective... you are talking about about pedal stroke technique... in the grand scheme of things is something completely irrelevant to 7 + billion folks on this planet... it's really silly to get overheated about such a stupid topic...left the forum March 20230
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ugo.santalucia wrote:Yes, but put it in perspective... you are talking about about pedal stroke technique... in the grand scheme of things is something completely irrelevant to 7 + billion folks on this planet... it's really silly to get overheated about such a stupid topic...
It is a stupid topic, I agree. I doubt if everyone will share that view though...0 -
Imposter wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Yes, but put it in perspective... you are talking about about pedal stroke technique... in the grand scheme of things is something completely irrelevant to 7 + billion folks on this planet... it's really silly to get overheated about such a stupid topic...
It is a stupid topic, I agree. I doubt if everyone will share that view though...
Well, you do, so that's one...
It's not a stupid topic, but it's a stupid topic to get heated about... world famine, climate change, oil dependancy, Russia's foreign policy and the loss of manufacturing jobs (or any meaningful job) in the west are topics worth having a good go at each other though...
left the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:It's not a stupid topic, but it's a stupid topic to get heated about... world famine, climate change, oil dependancy, Russia's foreign policy and the loss of manufacturing jobs (or any meaningful job) in the west are topics worth having a good go at each other though...
But not in the training forum though.. 0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:Can anyone elucidate why this section of the forum is so litigious?
I have seen people having a go at each other about synthetic lubricants for diesel engines and I don't think here we are far off
Keep your post simple, get to the point, no need to embellish it with some extra hidden insult
You think things get heated on here. Over on Harley Davidson Forums people have fought duels over who's Fat Boy sounds better.0 -
"Squeal like a pig fat boy!" That kind of thing? Kinky these Harley owners.Davey Harleson wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:Can anyone elucidate why this section of the forum is so litigious?
I have seen people having a go at each other about synthetic lubricants for diesel engines and I don't think here we are far off
Keep your post simple, get to the point, no need to embellish it with some extra hidden insult
You think things get heated on here. Over on Harley Davidson Forums people have fought duels over who's Fat Boy sounds better.0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:It's not a stupid topic, but it's a stupid topic to get heated about... world famine, climate change, oil dependancy, Russia's foreign policy and the loss of manufacturing jobs (or any meaningful job) in the west are topics worth having a good go at each other though...
well, lets get heated up about whether its a mod s job to decide what people can argue about or not?
Bahzob and Alex are having a barney, Alex is the professional here and can easily choose to stop replying...topic will die, because few really care.
this is just like the Trev PM thing and Ric, all over again.0 -
When we're all done here we can move onto 'Light weight wheels - worth it or not?"0
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Durr, obviously the answer to that question is "Not, if you've got lots of leg strength."bernithebiker wrote:When we're all done here we can move onto 'Light weight wheels - worth it or not?"0 -
briantrumpet wrote:
Durr, obviously the answer to that question is "Not, if you've got lots of leg strength."bernithebiker wrote:When we're all done here we can move onto 'Light weight wheels - worth it or not?"
I reckon if you can pedal circles with light wheels with really strong legs, you're laughing.
Discuss.0 -
No, if you're laughing your breathing technique will be all over the shop. Fundamental error.bernithebiker wrote:I reckon if you can pedal circles with light wheels with really strong legs, you're laughing.0 -
While it's highly amusing following a scientist debating with a fool, unfortunately before long the scientist starts sounding like the fool and the debate gets ridiculous....More problems but still living....0
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amaferanga wrote:While it's highly amusing following a scientist debating with a fool, unfortunately before long the scientist starts sounding like the fool and the debate gets ridiculous....
But I never claimed to be a scientist!briantrumpet wrote:
No, if you're laughing your breathing technique will be all over the shop. Fundamental error.bernithebiker wrote:I reckon if you can pedal circles with light wheels with really strong legs, you're laughing.
Always safer to be the fool.0 -
briantrumpet wrote:
No, if you're laughing your breathing technique will be all over the shop. Fundamental error.bernithebiker wrote:I reckon if you can pedal circles with light wheels with really strong legs, you're laughing.
Brilliant!
You should know, you play the trumpet!0 -
To be clear, I'm not overheated although perhaps some might see it that way, mostly when I point out falsehoods about what I have said (which I think is reasonable). Aside from that, this isn't much more than a bit of light comic relief as far as I'm concerned. I'd imagine that if we were in a pub we'd be having a laugh about it.ugo.santalucia wrote:Yes, but put it in perspective... you are talking about about pedal stroke technique... in the grand scheme of things is something completely irrelevant to 7 + billion folks on this planet... it's really silly to get overheated about such a stupid topic...
I agree it's a pretty low level topic. It's a still pond at times, and someone else will likely toss another stone in.0 -
It didn't sound like anyone was posting with their mod hat on.mamba80 wrote:ugo.santalucia wrote:It's not a stupid topic, but it's a stupid topic to get heated about... world famine, climate change, oil dependancy, Russia's foreign policy and the loss of manufacturing jobs (or any meaningful job) in the west are topics worth having a good go at each other though...
well, lets get heated up about whether its a mod s job to decide what people can argue about or not?
Bahzob and Alex are having a barney, Alex is the professional here and can easily choose to stop replying...topic will die, because few really care.
this is just like the Trev PM thing and Ric, all over again.0 -
Mamba 80,
It's called "light active moderating"... we don't normally do it... it normally comes before a storm. It is a moderated forum.
We have a lot of reports from this side of the forum, which is getting rather litigious and most incidents, warnings, bans and general waste of time could be preventable with a bit of "self moderating" also called common sense... if you don't want to follow the advice, try your luck and see how it ends...left the forum March 20230 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:if you don't want to follow the advice, try your luck and see how it ends...
What chapter in the Moderator's Handbook covers threatening posters ?
Good job in stopping the 'litigious' posts though. Or any other posts for that matter . . . . . .
Regards,
Gordon0 -
Does this class as a threatening poster?legendary27 wrote:What chapter in the Moderator's Handbook covers threatening posters ?
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ugo.santalucia wrote:Mamba 80,
It's called "light active moderating"... we don't normally do it... it normally comes before a storm. It is a moderated forum.
We have a lot of reports from this side of the forum, which is getting rather litigious and most incidents, warnings, bans and general waste of time could be preventable with a bit of "self moderating" also called common sense... if you don't want to follow the advice, try your luck and see how it ends...
its not a discussion that particularly bothers me, it wasn't getting out of hand, you just didn't agree with the subject ie you said it was a stupid debate and matters such as world peace and food famines are much more worthy - so how come that becomes your job to decide? surely that is for the forum?
Its a relatively light hearted forum, its a bike forum and opinions may be heated, however you cant predict the future or know what some poster might or not, write -so how can you come in with L,A,M ?
But I will bear in mind your threat for anything that I do feel strongly about.0 -
mamba80 wrote:its not a discussion that particularly bothers me, it wasn't getting out of hand, you just didn't agree with the subject ie you said it was a stupid debate and matters such as world peace and food famines are much more worthy - so how come that becomes your job to decide? surely that is for the forum?
Its a relatively light hearted forum, its a bike forum and opinions may be heated, however you cant predict the future or know what some poster might or not, write -so how can you come in with L,A,M ?
But I will bear in mind your threat for anything that I do feel strongly about.
You are reading this the wrong way, I am not threatening you.
There is a behind the scenes... with constant bitching and reports... I even get PMs asking me to act on this or other particular thread. I have to do something about it and my something comes in the form of a warning: we/you should all stop being so argumentative in this section of the forum, because otherwise we will have to remove some individuals. It's not a threat, it's a warning... it's how things work. If you guys prefer silence followed by a ban, then stop fuxxing writing me PMs about it... :?left the forum March 20230 -
I continue to be baffled why folks get so upset at the fairly innocuous suggestion that while you are doing a workout it is just common sense to also pay some attention to how you are turning the pedals and try experimenting with different techniques. There is absolutely no downside to doing this. Even Alex now seems to think you can get better by riding a bike so why not try to accelerate the process.
Whatever, as I have said before time will tell. It's becoming more common for power meters to capture information on how you are pedalling and I predict it will only be a matter of time before products like WKO include this information and it becomes the norm to use this to improve.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
There's no "even now" about it. I have always maintained that riding a bike is necessary to improve how we ride a bike.bahzob wrote:Even Alex now seems to think you can get better by riding a bike
Please stop claiming or inferring things I didn't say or have never said. It's kinda tiresome.0 -
ugo.santalucia wrote:Mamba 80,
It's called "light active moderating"... we don't normally do it... it normally comes before a storm. It is a moderated forum.
We have a lot of reports from this side of the forum, which is getting rather litigious and most incidents, warnings, bans and general waste of time could be preventable with a bit of "self moderating" also called common sense... if you don't want to follow the advice, try your luck and see how it ends...
Common sense isn't very common.0
