Improving pedal stroke
hazzy87
Posts: 26
I feel that i tend to stamp on the pedal. Is there any tips on getting myself out of this poor stroke and becoming more efficient?
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Just use one leg at a time for a few km.hazzy87 wrote:I feel that i tend to stamp on the pedal. Is there any tips on getting myself out of this poor stroke and becoming more efficient?0 -
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All the above is just advice .. you can do whatever the f*ck you wana do!
Bike Radar Strava Club
The Northern Ireland Thread0 -
The best training device at the moment remains the Wattbike, since it gives a real time feedback on your pedal stroke in a graphic format that makes it easy to see what you are doing and correct it.
Just google "wattbike pedalling" for more info. If you contact the folks at Wattbike they should be able to advise where you can find the nearest machine.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
PS One technique you should not try is pedalling with one leg. Its pretty useless and can actually make things worse as it encourages trying to "pull up" the pedal.
One good and simple training tip is just make a conscious effort to train at different cadences, e.g. do 5 minutes at low rpm, then 5 minutes at very high rpm. Or vary cadence with time, so start low cadence and ramp up towards the end of the interval.
Doing this should engage all the muscles that can help provide power and develop the timing/co-ordination to do this most efficiently. It will also falling into the rut that 90% of amateurs who just pedal at their most comfortable cadence which is usually too low, especially when the going gets tough.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
PPS Another good way to develop pedalling is do turbo/roller work while watching a pro race.
Simply aim to replicate their cadence and smoothness of style, especially when doing threshold+ efforts. If you find this difficult then chances are you could improve, one reason that pros are better is because they pedal better.
Best are long climbs or TTs where you get the chance to see pros in their red zone putting out power we could only dream of but doing it apparently with little effort, which is a typical mark of someone who is skilled at something.
Last years Ventoux was good example https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K0ucvPWpCGM&list=PLVU8cPY68YrmoJQlaZBIGJl7KwMETyFNx
Interesting thing in this is how Quintana's previously imperious style breaks down when he pops right at the end. (around 1hour 56mins) Good example of how pedalling badly probably means you are riding badly.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
Thanks for the advice bahzob. A lot more helpfull then the others.0
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..more helpful in the sense that he's made more effort to help. Whether the advice is good is another matter. Do a forum search. This has been discussed on here ad nauseam.0
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hazzy87 wrote:Thanks for the advice bahzob. A lot more helpfull then the others.
Np. As you have probably gathered for reasons I can't understand this subject seems to work some folks up. They seem to be of the opinion that pedalling is a unique human skill, everyone is born with the innate ability to do it perfectly and can't possibly do it any better.
The fact they bear as much resemblance to a pro rider in terms of style, especially when at the limit, as a 28 handicap golfer does to Ernie Els doesn't seem to concern them.
Moreover there is absolutely no downside to having an open mind. Training can be hard work and its handy to have other things than power targets to focus on while doing it.
I've been posting here long enough to remember the "power" wars. Hard to believe now but there used to be a time that cynics like those above made pretty much the same comments about anyone who suggested that using a power meter was in any way better than HR or good old fashioned RPE.
So don't be dissuaded. Whatever, all I can say is that working on improving technique using a Wattbike has improved all aspects of my riding and hopefully will do the same for you too.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
I know a couple of pro riders personally - to the best of my knowledge, there is nothing different about their 'pedalling style' now than there was when they were both coming up through the youth/junior/ODP ranks. Previously, I've been fortunate enough to be in the same road race bunch as a couple of them, and their pedallilng style is not noticably different. Probably because there isn't any difference.
Talk of some mysterious 'pro' pedalling style is highly dubious, sorry. Comparing a golf swing to a pedalling style is laughable, too.
Sorry Bahzob - you are right on the money 99% of the time with your answers - but this topic always lets you down a bit. I think most people would be open-minded with you on this - if you were able to offer some evidence - but you've never been able to.0 -
Pathetic. No-one has ever said anything like this.bahzob wrote:Np. As you have probably gathered for reasons I can't understand this subject seems to work some folks up. They seem to be of the opinion that pedalling is a unique human skill, everyone is born with the innate ability to do it perfectly and can't possibly do it any better.
All people have done is ask you to back up your assertions with some evidence of; a) what a 'better' technique looks like and b) whether such a thing is trainable in practical terms. You have never provided either.0 -
+1Imposter wrote:Sorry Bahzob - you are right on the money 99% of the time with your answers - but this topic always lets you down a bit. I think most people would be open-minded with you on this - if you were able to offer some evidence - but you've never been able to.
For this pedalling topic (and any topic really) I'd suggest an approach that removes all strawman arguments and other logical fallacies, because while ever they dominate one's arguments, then sound minds will always remain sceptical. Strip those away, and if there's not much left, well then there you go.
An example is suggesting people have closed minds because they don't instantly fall in line with your opinion, which is of course a non-sequitur. People's minds are very open, that is the very nature of learning and science - but one needs to come to the party with more than opinion and web site links.
Bring such things, and we'll take more notice.
No-one is saying there's no value in such analysis, but the problem is that there's been a large unsupported leap from the data that such analysis provides to what technique and/or training intervention is actually beneficial, or what influence such an intervention really has (once you remove all the bias in personal and anecdotal examples).
I suspect that such analysis is better suited to assisting with bike fit/cleat placement, but that's only speculation on my part.
Here's a funny anecdote:
I had to laugh at my own recent pedal stroke analysis. Apparently my left side pedal smoothness is superior to my right, for the same power output. Conclusion: chop your leg off to improve pedal stroke.
Actually, that "improved smoothness" result is in line with mid / rearward cleat placement's impact on pedal stroke. Yet when tested, not one client I've worked with that's used "mid-foot" has produced more sustainable power with it than when using a more traditional cleat placement (including a dual world masters hour record holder). But it did result in a drop in short range/sprint power. And that's exactly the experience I had - my sustainable aerobic power was reclaimed post-amputation, but sprint power suffered significantly.0 -
Remember the Wattbike peanut graph is misleading, in that they assume constant pedal speed (whereas it varies quite a bit within a pedal stroke). They have two magnets, so the graph is interpolated over 180deg where they guess the angle.
Telling someone to replicate "smoothness of style" sounds very wishy washy!
To the OP: if you really feel that you stamp on the pedal, that may be a function of a low cadence. Try riding at a higher cadence when outside (eg. by choosing lower gears) and see how that feels.
When performing an action, adequately exploring what's known as your "degrees of freedom" will help allow you to determine what is most efficient/economical for you - not just cycling but in all different types of activity - so in this case you'd try to explore your degrees of freedom by changing your cadence and seeing how you respond. Other factors might include upper body stability, as you may be bracing your upper body a bit too much to apply a very high peak torque on the pedal (ie. stamping)
Xav0 -
Try riding at a higher cadence when outside (eg. by choosing lower gears) and see how that feels.
+1 Try some periods pedalling at over 100 rpm. Its pretty much impossible to mash the pedals and maintain that cadence.0 -
Just go out ride and enjoy it, forget the stats. Unless the pedalling causing you pain!!.0
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To OP, don't be put off by the above.
Fact remains their fundamental belief is that we are all blessed at birth with being able to ride perfectly and incapable of learning to do it better. They honestly believe they are as good at turning the cranks as the best cyclists in the world. This makes pedalling quite unique in the panoply of skills. I guess they must think God is a cyclist.
I don't expect them to change their views or really care if they do for that matter. But it is a shame if their frankly bizarre beliefs stop those without similarly closed minds getting better.
Bottom line remains
- If they are right and I am wrong then you don't lose anything by spending time during workouts thinking about pedalling differently.
- But if they are wrong (which simply implies that pedalling is like every other skill we possess) then mindlessly training without thinking about how you you are actually producing the wattage numbers shown on your computer display is missing a big opportunity to improve.
Couple of other useful tips
- Hunter Allen includes some drills in his guide to winter training here (they are not winter specific, can be used all year round) http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/Archivedarticles/Four%20Powerful%20Keys%20to%20Winter%20Training.pdf
- A good warm-up routine (generally but especially if time is short) is to do 3-5 mins at an easy pace then do
1 minute at very low gear at as high a cadence as possible (aim for 120rpm+)
1 minute rest
1 minute very hard at 100rpm+
1 minute rest
1 minute very hard at 100rpm+
2 minutes easy
start workout intervals.
This gets the legs up and working. It also forces you to snap out of a low rpm comfort zone if you are in one (as most amateurs tend to be). As a result when you do your intervals you may well find yourself doing them at a different cadence than you are used to which may well prove more effective.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
bahzob wrote:I don't expect them to change their views or really care if they do for that matter. But it is a shame if their frankly bizarre beliefs stop those without similarly closed minds getting better.
What is truly bizarre is the way you attack people who (not unreasonably) question this view - and your persistence with this 'pro pedalling technique' mantra - without ever explaining what it actually consists of.0 -
bahzob wrote:To OP, don't be put off by the above.
Fact remains their fundamental belief is that we are all blessed at birth with being able to ride perfectly and incapable of learning to do it better. They honestly believe they are as good at turning the cranks as the best cyclists in the world. This makes pedalling quite unique in the panoply of skills. I guess they must think God is a cyclist.
I don't expect them to change their views or really care if they do for that matter. But it is a shame if their frankly bizarre beliefs stop those without similarly closed minds getting better.
Bottom line remains
- If they are right and I am wrong then you don't lose anything by spending time during workouts thinking about pedalling differently.
- But if they are wrong (which simply implies that pedalling is like every other skill we possess) then mindlessly training without thinking about how you you are actually producing the wattage numbers shown on your computer display is missing a big opportunity to improve.
Couple of other useful tips
- Hunter Allen includes some drills in his guide to winter training here (they are not winter specific, can be used all year round) http://www.peakscoachinggroup.com/Archivedarticles/Four%20Powerful%20Keys%20to%20Winter%20Training.pdf
- A good warm-up routine (generally but especially if time is short) is to do 3-5 mins at an easy pace then do
1 minute at very low gear at as high a cadence as possible (aim for 120rpm+)
1 minute rest
1 minute very hard at 100rpm+
1 minute rest
1 minute very hard at 100rpm+
2 minutes easy
start workout intervals.
This gets the legs up and working. It also forces you to snap out of a low rpm comfort zone if you are in one (as most amateurs tend to be). As a result when you do your intervals you may well find yourself doing them at a different cadence than you are used to which may well prove more effective.
Coming from a sporting background where technique and skill are all important, judo, fencing, squash and a dad who was a scratch golfer, I find the notion of there being much skill or technique involved in pedalling a bicycle rather difficult to understand.
I have seen plenty of pro cyclists who look smooth and stylish and also many who look almost spasticated, but they all have one thing in common, they output far more watts. Usually they achieve this by pedalling the same gear faster than the average cyclist or pedalling a much bigger gear as fast.
But one Mr Obree is a strong advocate of pedalling technique and over the years I have learnt that sometimes the minority and mavericks are proven to have been right all along. There may well be more to pedalling than science presently suggests.0 -
Still persisting with strawman arguments I see.bahzob wrote:Fact remains their fundamental belief is that we are all blessed at birth with being able to ride perfectly and incapable of learning to do it better.
Please post an example of where anyone here has written such a thing.0 -
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
Still persisting with strawman arguments I see.bahzob wrote:Fact remains their fundamental belief is that we are all blessed at birth with being able to ride perfectly and incapable of learning to do it better.
Please post an example of where anyone here has written such a thing.
Your belief follows naturally from oft stated views that
- there is absolutely nothing that can be done to improve pedalling by training
- all riders, from the most naive amateur to the best pro ride a bike instinctively in the best possible way in all conditions
- those who differ from this opinion are deluded and wasting their time
If true this would make pedalling quite unique. No other skill shares these attributes.
You seem strangely reluctant to say this directly. If you disagree, please, as repeatedly asked, say what you actually do believe.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
bahzob wrote:You seem strangely reluctant to say this directly.
Whie we're on the subject of reluctance - you seem strangely reluctant to offer any evidence or practical information on what exactly you mean by 'improved pedalling'.
I think you've managed to ignore three such requests on this thread already...0 -
Stalin wrote:Coming from a sporting background where technique and skill are all important, judo, fencing, squash and a dad who was a scratch golfer, I find the notion of there being much skill or technique involved in pedalling a bicycle rather difficult to understand.
I have seen plenty of pro cyclists who look smooth and stylish and also many who look almost spasticated, but they all have one thing in common, they output far more watts. Usually they achieve this by pedalling the same gear faster than the average cyclist or pedalling a much bigger gear as fast.
But one Mr Obree is a strong advocate of pedalling technique and over the years I have learnt that sometimes the minority and mavericks are proven to have been right all along. There may well be more to pedalling than science presently suggests.
I'll hope that from the above you have a reasonably open mind on this subject.
I do other sports too, including golf and swimming. I accept there is a continuum, the contribution of "skill" towards final performance varies. Golf is an example where the contribution is high, swimming is probably somewhere in the mid range and cycling is, I quite accept, towards the low end.
However saying it is in the low end does not mean there is, as some believe, there is absolutely no skill involved and that, by implication, pedalling is utterly different from every other skill we possess.
Nor does it mean that you are absolutely wasting your time if you think you can make some performance gains through looking at technique. These gains may be in the low percentages but even low percentages are worth pursuing, especially if you are reaching the limits of what you can achieve through pure physical training.
This would always be the case but even more so where there is absolutely no downside to extending your training goals to include pedal techniques. To the contrary it can quite easily improve the content and quality of your workouts.
To give a specific example, which addresses your first point about how much "skill" is involved riding a bike.
One standard aspect of many motor skills is that the faster you try to do them the harder it becomes. The same applies to pedalling. Since power, basically, = torque * rpm the easiest way to increase power, as you yourself say, is simply to increase revs. However typically this is not as easy as it sounds. If you are not skilled then increasing rpm will compromise your ability to apply torque because you don't use all the muscles that can apply force in the best way (you don't use them at all and/or if you do they don't apply force with ideal timing reducing force). It's not dissimilar (though I accept to a lesser degree) to the crap golfer who tries to hit a ball further by simply by swinging the club faster
So rather than just mindlessly pedalling "faster" or "harder" its good to be more focussed and think also about how to build good technique at the same time.
To the above this sounds like heresy. However I'm reassured by the fact that, outside this somewhat limited (in many senses of the word) forum population, others share my view. I wasn't aware of Graham Obree's but Bradley Wiggins attributed his TDF and Olympic victories in part due to working on exactly this.
While many amateurs would benefit from experimenting with pedalling faster he had the opposite issue but the basic concepts still apply.
Describing how he analysed how Tony Martin had managed to ride 1min 20s faster than him he writes "There was certainly something in his cadence. I tended to spin a lower gear due to my background as a track cyclist. He was turning the pedals at a good 15 to 20rpm lower than me. .. so we worked on torque all through the winter, simply by putting more power into my pedalling at lower revs"
He describes a typical session "We would ride one minute at 550W then four minutes at 50rpm, maybe 400-440W which is bloody hard to do in the big ring, then down to the little ring and start again. So five sets of five minutes alternating normal cadence and high power for one minute with low cadence and threshold power for four. We'd already done five and a half hours, one hour at threshold so the last five minutes is horrible..."
Question is who do I listen to and suggest others do as well? Pros like Bradley Wiggins (and their coaches)who I would aspire to ride like or folks here who, as far as am aware, have done little by comparison even with my standards.
Just a couple of other points
- When you say "There may well be more to pedalling than science presently suggests." don't over estimate the quality of science in this area. It's mostly junk, testing unrepresentative populations in lab conditions that make it easy for the experimenters but with little relationship to the real world. One of the most often cited studies into this area differentiated its subjects simply be telling them to pedal differently. It would be really nice if all we needed to do to become proficient in a skill was to be told how to do it but sadly it's a little more complicated than that. An equivalent protocol carried out for golfers would "prove" there was no point practising because telling subjects to swing differently had no effect.
- If you could provide more info on Graham Obree's views I would be interested.
- I am not so sure you can find many pro riders who, as you say, look "spasticated" Those that do are typically those who have cracked completely or are total fish out of water (sprinters climbing, a Schleck on a TT bike.)
On the contrary one distinguishing feature of pros is that they remain "skilled" at pedalling at much higher absolute power levels than we do. More importantly they also remain "skilled" at much higher relative levels of power. They look smooth even when in the red zone. This too is a feature that distinguishes the skilled from the unskilled. Skilled exponents are capable of maintaining good form when under far greater levels of relative stress than the unskilled.
So yes pros put out more power than us. But one reason they do so because they simply pedal a bike better. And imo its just plain daft to ignore the possibility that we might improve by looking at how they ride and try to emulate it ourselves.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
Imposter wrote:bahzob wrote:You seem strangely reluctant to say this directly.
Whie we're on the subject of reluctance - you seem strangely reluctant to offer any evidence or practical information on what exactly you mean by 'improved pedalling'.
I think you've managed to ignore three such requests on this thread already...
Sorry if I have ignored you. Tbh it's hard to spot serious points amongst the various attempt to seem "funny".
As for any other skill, good pedalling is a combination of several factors:
- It is as efficient as possible. Specifically this means
>> All the muscles and associated physiological systems that directly or indirectly contribute towards force production do so. (In contrast bad pedalling overemphasises some muscles, typically the quads and uses others barely if at all.)
>> The timing of these is co-ordinated so that force is applied in a manner that maximises torque which is what actually matters as far as power is concerned. For example, just mindlessly mashing the pedal down as hard as you can with your quads is not as powerful as doing so at the correct phase of the pedal stroke and adjusting the angle at which the quads apply force for the duration that they are working.
- Points of failure are understood, trained and balanced
>> Any system is only as strong as its weakest link. Improving pedalling means you are comfortable producing high power for sustained lengths of time at various cadences. This means when you are put under stress you can react flexibly. If your only option when faced with a sudden, unexpected change of pace is to change up/down into a different chain ring you are worse off than if you can simply adjust cadence. Accordingly it makes sense to train for this. Also when doing sustained efforts you know the best trade off in terms of high/low cadence suited to conditions and your own personal physiology.
- Skill is resistant to stress. It is easy to be skilled when effort is low. A distinguishing feature of the skilled vs the unskilled is the capacity to maintain good form even when conditions are at their hardest. When looking at pro riders the key point is not that they look good producing high power. It is that they look good at much higher levels of relative power. They look smooth in the red zone, part of that is due to being able to maintain good pedal technique. If on the contrary technique breaks down as effort increases it can quickly lead to a catastrophic loss of capacity.
Hope this answers your question.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
It doesn't answer the question really, but tbh I wasn't really expecting it to. Long on anecdote - very short on anything useful or practical. To keep referring to how the pros 'look good' while pedalling is quite funny though. And the 'Wiggins story' - well, that's all it is. What are you going to do next, link to some clips on YouTube?
This is either a major breakthrough in pedalling dynamics, or a wild goose chase. In the absense of any proper, useful information though, I'm just going to assume that (as before in all the other threads) you have absolutely nothing to back this up.0 -
I'm happy to keep an open mind on this one.
I don't think anyone can either 100% prove or disprove the argument so it remains open to research and ideas.
In Majorca recently, in a peloton of over 40 high standard riders, you can spot the better riders quite easily by how they appear to ride, and their pedalling style. The 2 pro guides in particular were very smooth, no upper body movement, no mashing, etc. This 'visual assessment' of mine seems to work in about 9 out of 10 cases; if they look good, they usually are. Did they specifically train that aspect of their riding, or is it just a function of many, many hours in the saddle? I don't know.
I would like to think that I pedal fairly smoothly, and I consider that to be an asset.
The bicycle pedal stroke is imperfect because for a good portion of it, very little torque can be applied, at 180 to 360' for example. Q rings, etc. have come about to help counter this. If, by changing heel angle, by changing cadence, by avoiding mashing at 90', by changing crank length, etc. etc. you can improve this efficiency, then to my mind, it's worth looking at.
I don't have the answers, but until someone can comprehensively disprove that their is nothing in pedalling efficiency, then I for one will be keen for new advice, ideas and research on the matter.0 -
Anyone considered that if a pro is pedalling more smoothly than us mere amateurs (which I would dispute - you see all sorts of riding styles in the pro peloton just as in the amateur ranks and some of the smoothest pedalling I've seen has come from kids) it could just be because they are fitter and therefore look less ragged when putting in an effort. Ultimately your feet are connected to the pedals and the movement is governed by the cranks so there really isn't a lot that you can do wrong providing your leg speed is keeping up with the cadence. I suspect a lot of perceived issues with pedalling technique is more to do with poor gear selection.0
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bernithebiker wrote:I'm happy to keep an open mind on this one.
I think we all are. Unfortunately, Bahzob's opinion is that unless you agree with him, you do not have an open mind. Pross has pretty much summed it up above^^^0 -
Imposter wrote:bernithebiker wrote:I'm happy to keep an open mind on this one.
I think we all are. Unfortunately, Bahzob's opinion is that unless you agree with him, you do not have an open mind. Pross has pretty much summed it up above^^^
Why was my post removed? I asked a valid question. Which was can someone describe good pedalling technique. Is it applying more even force or torque through more of the entire stroke? Does it involve pulling up?
Someone recently posted an excerpt from Obree's book, but it involves kicking over the top and scraping back I think. He advocates applying force for more of the whole stroke not just pushing hard down.0
