Improving pedal stroke
Comments
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Stalin wrote:Imposter wrote:bernithebiker wrote:I'm happy to keep an open mind on this one.
I think we all are. Unfortunately, Bahzob's opinion is that unless you agree with him, you do not have an open mind. Pross has pretty much summed it up above^^^
Why was my post removed? I asked a valid question.
Not sure why you are quoting me while asking that question - I have no idea why (or if) your post was removed. Why would I..?0 -
It's a bit rich for Stalin to be complaining about censorship!
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bahzob wrote:One standard aspect of many motor skills is that the faster you try to do them the harder it becomes.
To do what? Remember the pedal stroke occurs in a constrained space.
Can you explain what you consider to be a "good technique" in terms of muscular activation during the pedal stroke?
Xav0 -
A thought occurred to me; (bear with me on this one!)
In racing sail boats, they have those twin handed crank things to raise and lower sails. They are pretty similar to bicycle cranks. They have to spin them hard and fast to win races. Now I don't know much about sailing, but if someone does, maybe it would help to look at their technique; OK, so it's arms not legs, and your position is different, but do they just push hard? Or do they pull too? Are they going for a smooth circular motion, or a mashing type?
And another;
When I'm climbing hard and the quads are burning, I can relieve the pressure by pulling up, and not pushing down so much. Power / speed does not drop. However, this is not a 'natural' style for me, and I'll soon (30 secs or so) revert to a more 'normal' style. (I know I'm pulling up because on my MTB the Eggbeaters are quite worn, and I can feel the play in the cleat from pulling to pushing).
So it is possible to change pedal style, you are not totally 'constrained' by the cranks as some are saying. Whether it's worth it or not, however, is a different thing....0 -
bernithebiker wrote:A thought occurred to me; (bear with me on this one!)
In racing sail boats, they have those twin handed crank things to raise and lower sails. They are pretty similar to bicycle cranks. They have to spin them hard and fast to win races. Now I don't know much about sailing, but if someone does, maybe it would help to look at their technique; OK, so it's arms not legs, and your position is different, but do they just push hard? Or do they pull too? Are they going for a smooth circular motion, or a mashing type?
Yes, it is worth looking at this simple technique, especially the fact that they can apply the same maximal torque over 12 o'c as they apply at 3 o'c. They also use the pulling back and up technique but this is because the arms are capable of producing the same power in the pulling back/upward muscle action as in the forward/downward action. By a complete adjustment in the use of leg muscles it's possible for a cyclist to apply that same maximal torque over the top and down 11-5 o'c (for the perfect high gear TT pedalling 180 deg stroke) as these sail adjusters do, drawing back of foot from 5 to about 9 o'c is all that's required in the recovery stroke because of the ineffectiveness of pulling up due to unequal forces in pedalling round the 360 deg.0 -
I have never stated anything that you have written above. You attribute things to me that are simply untrue and you are unable to back up your fallacious claims that I have for the simple reason that they are false. Stop it, please.bahzob wrote:Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
Still persisting with strawman arguments I see.bahzob wrote:Fact remains their fundamental belief is that we are all blessed at birth with being able to ride perfectly and incapable of learning to do it better.
Please post an example of where anyone here has written such a thing.
Your belief follows naturally from oft stated views that
- there is absolutely nothing that can be done to improve pedalling by training
- all riders, from the most naive amateur to the best pro ride a bike instinctively in the best possible way in all conditions
- those who differ from this opinion are deluded and wasting their time
If true this would make pedalling quite unique. No other skill shares these attributes.
You seem strangely reluctant to say this directly. If you disagree, please, as repeatedly asked, say what you actually do believe.
I'm pretty sure that most of your advice on many topics is well intentioned, and often useful and helpful, but your persistent misrepresentations on this topic are tedious, trolling behaviour, are examples of a weak argument, and devalues the forum.
I've made my points on this topic pretty clear and most can read them in the numerous related threads. I can't help it if you choose to make stuff up instead. You might be better off debating pedalling in a thread with Noel Crowley and Frank Day.
There are helpful pedalling data and drills, and there are data and drills that are less useful. I'm not sure if you understand the difference. Your misunderstanding of what Wattbike data actually is, is an example which suggests you don't, although that's an understandable and a less egregious error than the large leaps you make about what one can infer and apply from it.
If people want to learn about this stuff, I suggest listening to and reading item from people like Jim Martin, or Lee Childers, or Xavier Disley. Professionals who actually study, innovate and research such things and have a deep understanding of such matters without the cloud of pre-conceived notions. They truly are the ones with open minds.0 -
Something like Turbo Power if you have an Android phone or Trainer Road on PC can really help to highlight poor technique.0
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How?caedev wrote:Something like Turbo Power if you have an Android phone or Trainer Road on PC can really help to highlight poor technique.0 -
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
How?caedev wrote:Something like Turbo Power if you have an Android phone or Trainer Road on PC can really help to highlight poor technique.
He's just plugging his own android app.More problems but still living....0 -
I know of some people who deliberately train on a turbo with as little inertia as possible because they have found it seems to increase their power.
Obree does this I think.
Now might this low inertia force the rider to pedal differently? Would he need to kick the pedal over the top and scrape back at the bottom more? Might training in this manner change the way they pedal and use their muscles?
I just pedal on ordinary quill or flat pedals with no clips or straps, I found being clipped to the pedals ( I used Look Keo for over 10 years ) did not increase sustainable power but I have found that being able to move my feet backwards or forwards or in or out slightly relieves discomfort and thus allows me to sustain power for longer.
Might people who work on their technique be training themselves to use some muscles more than one would do naturally and thus feel they are benefiting?
I'm trying to understand what the pedalling technique believers are feeling. Might their concentration on their technique cause them to assume any improvements in sustainable power are due to the technique where in fact they have just become more powerful?
Could it be possible training using these techniques actually brings about faster or more improvement?0 -
Stalin wrote:Could it be possible training using these techniques actually brings about faster or more improvement?
Of course it's 'possible'. The hard part is proving it to a degree where people believe it is a training intervention worth adopting.0 -
Imposter wrote:Stalin wrote:Could it be possible training using these techniques actually brings about faster or more improvement?
Of course it's 'possible'. The hard part is proving it to a degree where people believe it is a training intervention worth adopting.
Yes very true. There are a few successful timetriallists who train almost exclusively on a turbo. Some think it may be successful because of the low inertia. But it could be better use of time, or even training in an environment which causes them to be hotter whilst training even if they do use fans.
I do know that people do not sustain more power when they use cleats. This should not be the case if pedalling technique made a difference to sustainable power.0 -
Stalin wrote:Stalin wrote:
I do know that people do not sustain more power when they use cleats. This should not be the case if pedalling technique made a difference to sustainable power.
They don't know how to use them. When used with the right technique, cleats enable a rider replace the leg's idling dead spot sector with maximal torque and by reducing stress on the muscles during the power stroke, this gives the ideal sustainable high gear pedal power for TT's.0 -
ncr wrote:Stalin wrote:Stalin wrote:
I do know that people do not sustain more power when they use cleats. This should not be the case if pedalling technique made a difference to sustainable power.
They don't know how to use them. When used with the right technique, cleats enable a rider replace the leg's idling dead spot sector with maximal torque and by reducing stress on the muscles during the power stroke, this gives the ideal sustainable high gear pedal power for TT's.
Is this your opinion or do you have evidence which proves this 'right' technique improves sustainable power?
You see according to scientific opinion there is no evidence that improved technique, whatever that might be, improves sustainable power.
Don't get me wrong here, I would really enjoy seeing the scientists and experts who say people who believe in pedalling techniques are wrong have to eat their words, so please post some evidence.0 -
Stalin wrote:ncr wrote:Stalin wrote:Stalin wrote:
I do know that people do not sustain more power when they use cleats. This should not be the case if pedalling technique made a difference to sustainable power.
They don't know how to use them. When used with the right technique, cleats enable a rider replace the leg's idling dead spot sector with maximal torque and by reducing stress on the muscles during the power stroke, this gives the ideal sustainable high gear pedal power for TT's.
Is this your opinion or do you have evidence which proves this 'right' technique improves sustainable power?
You see according to scientific opinion there is no evidence that improved technique, whatever that might be, improves sustainable power.
Don't get me wrong here, I would really enjoy seeing the scientists and experts who say people who believe in pedalling techniques are wrong have to eat their words, so please post some evidence.
Common sense is all that's required. Scientific opinion has been decided, not from improved technique analysis and comparison but from variations of the same basic natural pedalling style, all of them having the same neutral dead spot sector 11-1 o'c and most effective torque application restricted to the 2-4 o'c sector. Being able to apply continuous maximal torque from 12-3 o'c and with most effective torque application extended to the 11-4 o'c sector, you can get the same amount of pedal power from each pedal stroke while using only half the peak force required with the natural styles.0 -
ncr wrote:Common sense is all that's required. Scientific opinion has been decided, not from improved technique analysis and comparison but from variations of the same basic natural pedalling style, all of them having the same neutral dead spot sector 11-1 o'c and most effective torque application restricted to the 2-4 o'c sector. Being able to apply continuous maximal torque from 12-3 o'c and with most effective torque application extended to the 11-4 o'c sector, you can get the same amount of pedal power from each pedal stroke while using only half the peak force required with the natural styles.
Sorry - how much torque can be applied with the pedal at 12 o'clock and what muscles are being engaged? And is this the same as at 11 or 3 o'clock?
Xav0 -
xavierdisley wrote:
Sorry - how much torque can be applied with the pedal at 12 o'clock and what muscles are being engaged? And is this the same as at 11 or 3 o'clock?
Xav
The equivalent of 2 o'c torque can be applied at 11 o'c, at 12, 1 and 2 o'c the equivalent of 3 o'c torque can be applied, normal torque is applied at 3, 4 and 5 o'c. All muscles from hip to toe are used. Muscles used are identical to those used by indoor tug o'war competitors and torque for application at 11, 12, 1 and 2 o'c is generated in exactly the same way as these competitors generate theirs.0 -
Indoor tug of war? And toe muscles?
At 11 o'clock/>300 degrees (ie just before top dead centre) there is very little choice about what muscles to actively recruit, given that the lower body will be performing knee and hip flexion. The human body has not evolved for loaded knee and hip flexion, but instead for knee and hip extension, which is why we see peak torques occurring ~45 degrees rather than at other points in the pedal stroke.
You can't claim that peak torque can be applied during pedalling when the lower body is in knee and hip flexion (ie. 11 o'clock), compared with knee and hip extension (ie. 2 o'clock), there's a fundamental misunderstanding of the muscles involved in pedalling if that's the case!
Different athletes will possess different pedalling actions, in terms of muscle utilisation, firing* etc., but the action of pedalling is largely governed by the fixed location of the pedal and so these differences are very constrained, as opposed to something like running. We built some floating pedals in our lab for some studies which had free movement laterally (so the pedal slid along a 30cm pedal axle) and in terms of rotation (360 degree float), which were a barrel of laughs and pretty hard to use! But gave us excellent info on what cyclists would do given free movement during the pedal stroke.
Xav
*there's a good one where we sometimes see "double burst" activity of the tibialis anterior (shin) muscle, where it peaks twice during the pedal stroke on some athletes and once on others, but doesn't seem to bear relation to measures such as efficiency or activity of other muscles0 -
Worth a look at this weeks CW(?), article with Malcolm Elliott/Ride London, suggests one legged pedalling :-)0
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Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:....I have never stated anything that you have written above. You attribute things to me that are simply untrue and you are unable to back up your fallacious claims that I have for the simple reason that they are false. Stop it, please.
I have repeatedly here and elsewhere asked you simply state your opinion wrt to pedalling.
You seem incapable of doing that, but seem very quick to criticise others.
Again. If you don't want me to attribute views that you do not feel to be your own all you have to do is state what yours actually is.
If you refuse don't be upset at any conclusions that are drawn.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
--Darren-- wrote:Worth a look at this weeks CW(?), article with Malcolm Elliott/Ride London, suggests one legged pedalling :-)
This is actually one drill I would definitely NOT recommend.
It's artificial, can be dangerous if you try to do it at max effort and can actually make your stroke worse as it can lead to trying to pull up on the upstroke which is to be avoided. (All you want is do be doing on the upstroke is ensuring you are not offering any resistance to the drive leg).
It also takes up scarce training time.
The best drills are those that you incorporate into normal workouts as I suggested above.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
Stalin wrote:You see according to scientific opinion there is no evidence that improved technique, whatever that might be, improves sustainable power.
Don't get me wrong here, I would really enjoy seeing the scientists and experts who say people who believe in pedalling techniques are wrong have to eat their words, so please post some evidence.
Actually the science in this area is pretty light and far short of demonstrating anything. Most experiments don't use a good protocol for measuring and/or improving pedalling skill so it's not a surprise they don't find anything. If the same approach was applied to other sports they would also "prove" that there is no skill element in them either.
I expect this situation to change in the near future. The next generation of power meters will be able to provide real-time on road feedback on your pedal stroke, similar to the Wattbike.
Once this happens this particular subject will, hopefully be put to bed. My prediction is that when this happens folks will find out for themselves that pedalling can make a difference as I did once I started using a Wattbike regularly.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
Stalin wrote:You see according to scientific opinion there is no evidence that improved technique, whatever that might be, improves sustainable power.
Don't get me wrong here, I would really enjoy seeing the scientists and experts who say people who believe in pedalling techniques are wrong have to eat their words, so please post some evidence.
Actually the science in this area is pretty light and far short of demonstrating anything. Most experiments don't use a good protocol for measuring and/or improving pedalling skill so it's not a surprise they don't find anything. If the same approach was applied to other sports they would also "prove" that there is no skill element in them either.
This is made all the more stark by the fact that if they were correct they would be onto something really big, far beyond the scope of cycling forums. Pedalling would be unique as the only skill we possess that we do perfectly from birth and for which there is no genetic variation. Maybe not quite a Nobel prize winner but still something pretty amazing.
I expect this situation to change in the near future. The next generation of power meters will be able to provide real-time on road feedback on your pedal stroke, similar to the Wattbike.
Once this happens this particular subject will, hopefully be put to bed. My prediction is that when this happens folks will find out for themselves that pedalling can make a difference as I did once I started using a Wattbike regularly.[/quote]Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
xavierdisley wrote:
Indoor tug of war? And toe muscles?
At 11 o'clock/>300 degrees (ie just before top dead centre) there is very little choice about what muscles to actively recruit, given that the lower body will be performing knee and hip flexion. The human body has not evolved for loaded knee and hip flexion, but instead for knee and hip extension, which is why we see peak torques occurring past 45 degrees rather than at other points in the pedal stroke.
You can't claim that peak torque can be applied during pedalling when the lower body is in knee and hip flexion (ie. 11 o'clock), compared with knee and hip extension (ie. 2 o'clock), there's a fundamental misunderstanding of the muscles involved in pedalling if that's the case!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/irishtugof ... 104833313/
Their objective is to apply maximal forward force from each leg to the floor mat that will drive them backwards in addition to pulling their opponents with them. A cyclist can generate this same force, but only a small percentage of this force is necessary to apply maximal torque to the crank at 12, 1 and 2 o'c. This force can be greater than what a cyclist can apply at 3 o'c. Instead of wasting time and cash on biopace, rotor cranks and Q rings etc, there is far more to be gained from improving technique and making maximal use of the dead spot sector instead of trying to eliminate it.0 -
All of the people in those photos are relying on knee and hip extension. You can't apply greater force at 0deg/12 o'clock in the pedal stroke compared with 90deg/3 o'clock because the hips and knees are at greatest flexion at 0deg. Unless you're talking about recumbent cycling?
Have you got an example of this type of pedalling?
Xav0 -
xavierdisley wrote:All of the people in those photos are relying on knee and hip extension. You can't apply greater force at 0deg/12 o'clock in the pedal stroke compared with 90deg/3 o'clock because the hips and knees are at greatest flexion at 0deg. Unless you're talking about recumbent cycling?
Have you got an example of this type of pedalling?
Xav
You are beyond redemption, like all other cyclists, that's your opinion and that's why pedaling still retains its dead spot sector today. Important sentence below is " Indoor matches require more complex techniques and tactics than those in the outdoor tug o' war ".
http://trymysport.co.uk/tug_of_war.htm0 -
Even a video of you doing it would be good? I don't understand what you're explaining, are you talking about recumbent cycling?
Xav0 -
So it's OK to make up what someone has said if you can't actually find them having said it? Rightyo. I'll keep that in mind.bahzob wrote:Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:....I have never stated anything that you have written above. You attribute things to me that are simply untrue and you are unable to back up your fallacious claims that I have for the simple reason that they are false. Stop it, please.
I have repeatedly here and elsewhere asked you simply state your opinion wrt to pedalling.
You seem incapable of doing that, but seem very quick to criticise others.
Again. If you don't want me to attribute views that you do not feel to be your own all you have to do is state what yours actually is.
If you refuse don't be upset at any conclusions that are drawn.
What a load of nonsense.
Once again, my commentary on various specific pedalling matters has appeared in many threads on the topic, including this one. And in none of them do I say what you claim I say. So stop making crap up.
Asking someone to state their opinion wrt the broad issue of pedalling is just silly. But if you must - OK, here's my opinion: Pedalling is good, get a good bike fit, choose an appropriate gear for the riding you are doing and don't overcomplicate it, the more you ride and the fitter you become as a result the better you'll get, and racing does wonders for one's pedalling. Further opinion would probably need questions to be a little more specific.
If I see something that doesn't make sense, well I see no reason why I shouldn't comment on it. Or should we just let nonsense and false claims pervade the forum?
If you write some nonsense, then don't be upset that such things may be challenged and any conclusions that are drawn.0 -
Xav, it's easier to understand once you realise space-time warps around Noel's pedal stroke.xavierdisley wrote:Even a video of you doing it would be good? I don't understand what you're explaining, are you talking about recumbent cycling?
Xav0
