Friday Thread: If Scotland vote YES will TWH have to leave?

pblakeney

Rick Chasey wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

. Then there's harmonised standards, border controls, and sooo many other things. Membership also isn't a slam dunk - talking to a Spanish colleague today, confirmed that Spain will really object to a newly-independent Scotland joining (for obvious reasons)

https://twitter.com/bbcnewsnight/status ... 7276802048

@BBCNewsnight: 'I don't see in the future for any new member state to not be part of the Euro', Spanish Europe Minister #newsnight

That would have more creditability had it come from a German unfortunately.
The Spanish have as much a vested interest as Alex Salmond or David Cameron.
Not to say that it isn't true though.

ugo.santalucia

elbowloh wrote:

There's also the argument that on average, graduates pay back more in tax over their careers than non-graduates, to they are paying for their education themselves.

Graduates will get the better jobs... which is different from saying there are more and better jobs for graduates. There are more graduates, hence the market tends to pick them as first choice, where in the past they picked non graduates... many graduates work in call centres... do you REALLY need a degree for that? It's a vicious circle. Personally I would promote high quality further education, rather than higher education for all.

It's also true that the standards of free education have fallen so dramatically that the sub-average GCSE student can barely read and add up... therefore further (higher?) education is necessary to avoid a life of benefits

It's not good, really!

veronese68

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Personally I would promote high quality further education, rather than higher education for all.

I completely agree with this.

elbowloh

Oh I agree on that too. The whole "50% of all people shall go to University" thing is ridiculous and unnecessary.

It was being implemented whilst I was at university and following graduation, when I was job hunting, there were many jobs in general admin that required a university degree.

University is not for everyone and is not the only route to successful/meaningful careers

surrey_commuter

elbowloh wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

elbowloh wrote:

UndercoverElephant wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

How they are going to pay for their privileges, such as free education?

Privileges like a free education?

That's why we need to get away from the UK, you've been indoctrinated for so long you probably believe it!

I agree on this point. University education was free in England for a very long time before the fees were introduced and should be again.

those using it should pay - why should a bloke on a production line pay more tax to pay for somebody to go to university for 3 years?

Did you suddenly pay less tax when they started charging a fees?
Should everyone else pay more tax to pay for all the subsidies that the Government gives to manufacturing companies to set up production lines in the UK?

There's also the argument that on average, graduates pay back more in tax over their careers than non-graduates, to they are paying for their education themselves.

I guess it is one of those subjects where you will never shift somebody's opinion. IMO if you use it you should pay this should also drive up standards and choice (2 year degrees). Works well enough in other countries.

ugo.santalucia

elbowloh wrote:

Oh I agree on that too. The whole "50% of all people shall go to University" thing is ridiculous and unnecessary.

It was being implemented whilst I was at university and following graduation, when I was job hunting, there were many jobs in general admin that required a university degree.

University is not for everyone and is not the only route to successful/meaningful careers

Yes, but there is no way back... thanks to Blair the number of Universities has boomed and it's a bit hard to go and tell them: no you can't call yourself University anymore, now you are a college... you can only let them fail first (if they fail to attract students) and then pick up the pieces and rebrand them as colleges...

elbowloh

Surrey Commuter wrote:

elbowloh wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

elbowloh wrote:

UndercoverElephant wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

How they are going to pay for their privileges, such as free education?

Privileges like a free education?

That's why we need to get away from the UK, you've been indoctrinated for so long you probably believe it!

I agree on this point. University education was free in England for a very long time before the fees were introduced and should be again.

those using it should pay - why should a bloke on a production line pay more tax to pay for somebody to go to university for 3 years?

Did you suddenly pay less tax when they started charging a fees?
Should everyone else pay more tax to pay for all the subsidies that the Government gives to manufacturing companies to set up production lines in the UK?

There's also the argument that on average, graduates pay back more in tax over their careers than non-graduates, to they are paying for their education themselves.

I guess it is one of those subjects where you will never shift somebody's opinion. IMO if you use it you should pay this should also drive up standards and choice (2 year degrees). Works well enough in other countries.

Like I said, they do pay for it with taxes over their lifetime. I don't think the introduction of fees in itself has driven up standards.

There are many, many services provided through Government that I do not use (although like with education I indirectly benefit as it enhances society) and that I do not want cut either. For example, I don't have kids nor am I married and therefore have received no form of tax credit.

meanredspider

elbowloh wrote:

, I don't have kids nor am I married and therefore have received no form of tax credit.

Have they introduced a married person's tax credit? I'm married and have kids - I get credit for neither.

ugo.santalucia

Well, as things stand, I prefer to see free warm meals in primary schools for all than free University for all. University should be free for the top end of the students who cannot afford it. The son of a millionaire can even pay it, FFS! And the less than clever boy better pay for it, as I won't subsidise the army of donkeys that get into uni without the very basic they need...

There are things that need to be looked at to approach a fair society... my boss is 60+ and gets free travel in London... he earns twice as much as I do... how's that fucxing fair? Even Paul McCarthy can travel for free...

rick_chasey

For those with an FT account (don't need a sub for this part) take a look at the first quarter of this:

http://ftalphaville.ft.com/marketslive/2014-09-16/

Markets live is a daily liveblog/chat on how the markets doing. Today they got the UBS Economist who's focussed on Scotland to look at the economic implications of yes & no.

Worth a read. Good summary.

elbowloh

meanredspider wrote:

elbowloh wrote:

, I don't have kids nor am I married and therefore have received no form of tax credit.

Have they introduced a married person's tax credit? I'm married and have kids - I get credit for neither.

There certainly used to be one yes.

meanredspider

elbowloh wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

elbowloh wrote:

, I don't have kids nor am I married and therefore have received no form of tax credit.

Have they introduced a married person's tax credit? I'm married and have kids - I get credit for neither.

There certainly used to be one yes.

Many many years ago

elbowloh

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Well, as things stand, I prefer to see free warm meals in primary schools for all than free University for all. University should be free for the top end of the students who cannot afford it. The son of a millionaire can even pay it, FFS! And the less than clever boy better pay for it, as I won't subsidise the army of donkeys that get into uni without the very basic they need...

There are things that need to be looked at to approach a fair society... my boss is 60+ and gets free travel in London... he earns twice as much as I do... how's that fucxing fair? Even Paul McCarthy can travel for free...

I was in the last year to go to Uni before the fees came in. I came from a single parent family, low income (qualified for free school meals which was often the measure for "poor") and the first person in my family to have gone to Uni. I was pretty bright, good grades at school etc.

If fees had been around at the time I wouldn't have even considered going to uni. Its all well and good saying that you only pay it back once you're earning a decent wage, but the prospect of coming out of University with a debt of £10K-£20k or more when your entire family (I am one of three kids) lived on £13k a year is horrifying. Neither my brother nor my sister went to Uni in spite of being as bright or even more clever than myself. I believe I'm paying back now as a higher rate tax payer.

elbowloh

meanredspider wrote:

elbowloh wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

elbowloh wrote:

, I don't have kids nor am I married and therefore have received no form of tax credit.

Have they introduced a married person's tax credit? I'm married and have kids - I get credit for neither.

There certainly used to be one yes.

Many many years ago

Looks like you can still get it. Allowance rather than a credit.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/incometax/married-allow.htm

You can still get child tax credit too according to that site.

bompington

elbowloh wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

elbowloh wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

elbowloh wrote:

, I don't have kids nor am I married and therefore have received no form of tax credit.

Have they introduced a married person's tax credit? I'm married and have kids - I get credit for neither.

There certainly used to be one yes.

Many many years ago

Looks like you can still get it. Allowance rather than a credit.

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/incometax/married-allow.htm

You can still get child tax credit too according to that site.

Available to all the many forum users who are a) married and b) born before 1935...

walkingbootweather

bompington wrote:

Available to all the many forum users who are a) married and b) born before 1935...

No good for me then, but I'll have to check to see if Mrs WBW qualifies. Wish me luck...

elbowloh

Oops didn't see that. I'm pretty sure my brother was getting it when he first got married?

There is still a child tax credit and there is a new married couple allowance coming in next year

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/budget/10494187/Autumn-Statement-2013-How-the-married-tax-allowance-will-affect-you.html

Anyway....I feel we're moving away from the original topic somewhat..which is free university education right?

meanredspider

elbowloh wrote:

You can still get child tax credit too according to that site.

Provided you earn no more than sixpence between the two of you.

Some can still get child tax credit - I can't (not strictly true - I can provided I pay tax on it which eliminates the benefit)

meanredspider

elbowloh wrote:

Anyway....I feel we're moving away from the original topic somewhat..which is free university education right?

The original topic is Scottish independence. I think the financial markets are making it pretty clear what they think of a potential Yes outcome. The pound is already quite a bit weaker (I get paid in € so I'm OK Jock) and will fall considerably further in the event of a Yes outcome. The investment guy on the radio this morning predicted £85bn being wiped off the Scottish housing stock value in the same situation. That, in turn, won't do a lot for the banks. Or me.

Fortunately bookies and investors alike are predicting only around a 20% chance of a Yes result.

elbowloh

meanredspider wrote:

elbowloh wrote:

Anyway....I feel we're moving away from the original topic somewhat..which is free university education right?

The original topic is Scottish independence. I think the financial markets are making it pretty clear what they think of a potential Yes outcome. The pound is already quite a bit weaker (I get paid in € so I'm OK Jock) and will fall considerably further in the event of a Yes outcome. The investment guy on the radio this morning predicted £85bn being wiped off the Scottish housing stock value in the same situation. That, in turn, won't do a lot for the banks. Or me.

Fortunately bookies and investors alike are predicting only around a 20% chance of a Yes result.

Yeah, heard the same this morning (Today programme?). Could mean that many thousands of people are instantly put in to negative equity following a Yes vote and huge amounts being written down from banks' assets, leaving them not wanting to lend anymore for a while.

rick_chasey

elbowloh wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

elbowloh wrote:

Anyway....I feel we're moving away from the original topic somewhat..which is free university education right?

The original topic is Scottish independence. I think the financial markets are making it pretty clear what they think of a potential Yes outcome. The pound is already quite a bit weaker (I get paid in € so I'm OK Jock) and will fall considerably further in the event of a Yes outcome. The investment guy on the radio this morning predicted £85bn being wiped off the Scottish housing stock value in the same situation. That, in turn, won't do a lot for the banks. Or me.

Fortunately bookies and investors alike are predicting only around a 20% chance of a Yes result.

Yeah, heard the same this morning (Today programme?). Could mean that many thousands of people are instantly put in to negative equity following a Yes vote and huge amounts being written down from banks' assets, leaving them not wanting to lend anymore for a while.

http://ftalphaville.ft.com/2014/09/16/1 ... ependence/

rick_chasey

FWIW, as the markets live link suggests, there is also risk for a no outcome, as well as a yes outcome.

elbowloh

On another note, if the Scottish do vote yes, can we change the clocks so we stick with British summer time all year round? I seem to recall the only reason we put the clocks back every winter was to help the Scottish farmers?

surrey_commuter

markets dislike uncertainty

I would love to adopt Central European Time (little known fact France adopted this in 1940)

Bookies, and especially betting exchanges have proved to be far better predictors of elections than polling firms

meanredspider

Rick Chasey wrote:

FWIW, as the markets live link suggests, there is also risk for a no outcome, as well as a yes outcome.

For sure. There's the risk of a neverendum for starters. Mind you, I'd imagine these are already factored in (after all, if both outcomes after 18th are negative then that will have been accounted for).

rick_chasey

Ok.

Nuts on the block.

Yes or no?


I think no.

meanredspider

The bookies think No. The markets think No. I'll be praying for No

greg66_tri_v2.0

Rick Chasey wrote:

Ok.

Nuts on the block.

Yes or no?


I think no.

No.

Followed by some civil unrest. Nothing that a light smattering of machine gun fire can't put down, you understand.

MonkeyMonster

No by 4-6 %

dhope

I reckon No, and by a small enough margin that the argument will drag on forever.