What is n+1 (when 1= missus agreeing if you lose weight)

jzed

essex-commuter wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

A stone and a half to go.

That must have been one satisfying dump.

I'd say painful! Another one of those and its pretty much an entire bike.

jonny_trousers

dhope wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

A stone and a half to go.

This thread has only been around a day (90 posts) and you've lost half a stone?!
So we can deduce that DDD threads contain approximately 35g crap per post?

rjsterry

DonDaddyD wrote:

DeVer (LBS) Do Cube these days, I think and er Boardman!? (When did that happen) and Cycle Scheme. I think I'll give them a visit.

A stone and a half to go.

I checked Boardman yesterday and all there are only two Alu frames, which are Sora or 2300 equipped. If you want a better gruppo, you need to go for carbon.

A valid point about getting something with a few eyelets to make it adaptable for when you buy the new blingmachine.

spasypaddy

TGOTB wrote:

spasypaddy wrote:

i also dont really like cheap carbon.

I don't like cr*p carbon frames, and I've ridden some expensive ones that were pretty rubbish. I'm a big fan of good carbon frames, and I've ridden a couple of cheap ones that were very good indeed.

Some manufacturers sell primarily through retail outlets (which have to add their markup to remain viable) and others selling primarily over the web. Some manufacturers have large marketing/sponsorship budgets, some don't. Given the huge variety in the way companies are doing business, price is quite a poor proxy for quality these days. Stipulating that a bike has to be expensive doesn't make an awful lot more sense than stipulating that it has to be made out of aluminium.

If you want to buy through an LBS in order to support the retailer, or because you think they offer a better service, that's fine. But it's misleading to claim the bike itself is inherently better, purely because you got it from a local retailer.

oh of course, im not claiming that because it has a trek/specialized/other brand logo on it its good carbon. when a frame costs £50-100 SHIPPED to the uk for a manufacturer you have to start questioning how good that frame can be.

veronese68

Are you ever going to carry ddd on it? If you are going to put a child seat on it steel may be better.

DonDaddyD

essex-commuter wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

A stone and a half to go.

That must have been one satisfying dump.

Yep, I had already started the weight loss at the time of writing this thread. However my weight fluctuates, so after I've dropped the two stone, I'll give myself a month or two to see if I can keep it off and then reward myself with said bike.

DonDaddyD

Veronese68 wrote:

Are you ever going to carry ddd on it? If you are going to put a child seat on it steel may be better.

Nope never.

DonDaddyD

rjsterry wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

DeVer (LBS) Do Cube these days, I think and er Boardman!? (When did that happen) and Cycle Scheme. I think I'll give them a visit.

A stone and a half to go.

I checked Boardman yesterday and all there are only two Alu frames, which are Sora or 2300 equipped. If you want a better gruppo, you need to go for carbon.

A valid point about getting something with a few eyelets to make it adaptable for when you buy the new blingmachine.

I still have the SCR 3....

Actually, whoa, Boardman only do two Alu frames and they are like bottom of the range. Has Aluminium become a redundant material?

notsoblue

DonDaddyD wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

Are you ever going to carry ddd on it? If you are going to put a child seat on it steel may be better.

Nope never.

Is that because you're holding out for a Bakfiets?

walkingbootweather

DonDaddyD wrote:

Has Aluminium become a redundant material?

Not at all. It is ideal for making cans for putting fizzy pop in. If I was a large chap and wanted a robust, versatile or comfortable ride I'd pick something else. If I had a budget of £1000, that something else would be steel.

But that's just me.

tgotb

spasypaddy wrote:

oh of course, im not claiming that because it has a trek/specialized/other brand logo on it its good carbon. when a frame costs £50-100 SHIPPED to the uk for a manufacturer you have to start questioning how good that frame can be.

What do you think it costs Trek/Specialized to manufacture a carbon frame and ship it to the UK? Not the amount they sell it to the retailer for, but the actual cost of building the frame and shipping it.

To help you, it'll cost you a few grand to ship a 40' container from a Chinese factory to an warehouse in the UK, so put 1000 frames into that container and the unit shipping cost is somewhere around a fiver. Now think through the process of building the frame itself; the materials don't cost much, and it takes pretty much the same labour to build a quality frame as it does to build a rubbish one.

Manage the supply chain yourself, and you can cut costs dramatically. I'm sure there are some dodgy manufacturers out there, but I think you'll find most of the internet-based businesses put a lot of effort into making sure they pick the right manufacturer, enforce good quality control etc. In many cases these may be the same manufacturers and QA processes used by the big names.

rjsterry

DonDaddyD wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

Are you ever going to carry ddd on it? If you are going to put a child seat on it steel may be better.

Nope never.

That's a shame. I still have a daft idea to take the littl'un up Box Hill in the Hamax. Probably have to be the 2yo as the 4yo is pushing the weight limits of the Hamax now.

paulintheforest

This thread is a revelation

itboffin wrote:

forget you ever enjoyed such luxuries as computer games or watching a whole movie in one sitting.

I had completely forgotten that it was possible to watch a whole film in one go!

menthel wrote:

(Note- I haven't ridden a Carbon bike- that is going to be my mid life crisis bike when I hit 40 in 2017!)

Now this comment has promise, just 3 weeks and one day until I can get myself a Carbon bling bike. Although my wife seems to be insisting that I have to have another job before I am allowed to spend any of my redundancy on bikes. But as soon as that happens get braced for a pair of threads saying I want a TT bike and a nice bike for 1k each and I'll wait for all the suggestions to roll in. The argument of having the bike now as I have time to ride it didn't wash.

spasypaddy

TGOTB wrote:

spasypaddy wrote:

oh of course, im not claiming that because it has a trek/specialized/other brand logo on it its good carbon. when a frame costs £50-100 SHIPPED to the uk for a manufacturer you have to start questioning how good that frame can be.

What do you think it costs Trek/Specialized to manufacture a carbon frame and ship it to the UK? Not the amount they sell it to the retailer for, but the actual cost of building the frame and shipping it.

To help you, it'll cost you a few grand to ship a 40' container from a Chinese factory to an warehouse in the UK, so put 1000 frames into that container and the unit shipping cost is somewhere around a fiver. Now think through the process of building the frame itself; the materials don't cost much, and it takes pretty much the same labour to build a quality frame as it does to build a rubbish one.

Manage the supply chain yourself, and you can cut costs dramatically. I'm sure there are some dodgy manufacturers out there, but I think you'll find most of the internet-based businesses put a lot of effort into making sure they pick the right manufacturer, enforce good quality control etc. In many cases these may be the same manufacturers and QA processes used by the big names.

of course but the point is, these big manufacturers have standards, huge R+D departments and a good QC, and then most have good customer service.

compare that to open mould frame that PX use. in a factory with basic QC.

Instead of buying cheap carbon from PX you might as well buy the frame off ebay, groupset from merlin and some wheels and finishing kit.

same quality, same standard of customer care, same factory.

notsoblue

spasypaddy wrote:

of course but the point is, these big manufacturers have standards, huge R+D departments and a good QC, and then most have good customer service.

compare that to open mould frame that PX use. in a factory with basic QC.

Instead of buying cheap carbon from PX you might as well buy the frame off ebay, groupset from merlin and some wheels and finishing kit.

same quality, same standard of customer care, same factory.

Sounds like you had a bad experience with PX... I've had an SL Pro for almost 4 years now, for 3 of those years I was commuting on it daily, I've done about half a dozen sportives and La Marmotte and I've not had any problems with the frame other than it being a noodly for someone my size. So in defense of cheap, entry level frames I'd say that in my experience they can be pretty good value. If I was racing or really took my road cycling very seriously I'd probably invest in a stiffer frame, but to be honest, I've been really happy with cheap carbon so far... And PX have been alright too. They replaced a cracked FSA crank with a SRAM Red one with minimal fuss, though they weren't very helpful with a recurring problem with the headset that was caused by a problem with the stem.

Buying a cheap bike will always involve some compromise, but as long as you understand that I don't see what the problem is.

tgotb

spasypaddy wrote:

of course but the point is, these big manufacturers have standards, huge R+D departments and a good QC, and then most have good customer service.

compare that to open mould frame that PX use. in a factory with basic QC.

Instead of buying cheap carbon from PX you might as well buy the frame off ebay, groupset from merlin and some wheels and finishing kit.

same quality, same standard of customer care, same factory.

What evidence do you have that the big manufacturers have lower standards or better QC than someone like PX? PX won't be buying these frames off the shelf; they'll be working with a manufacturer, just as the big names do; they'll be controlling the QA process, just as the big names do.

What evidence do you have that PX use open moulds? If you're confident about this, I challenge you to find an open mould frame identical to my (excellent and incredibly stiff) XLS.

Customer care from PX is going to be much more straightforward if something goes wrong than buying a frame from eBay. They're a UK company, all your normal UK rights apply. Not quite as easy as going to your LBS (except that I find it very difficult to get to my LBS when it's actually open) but no different to buying a brand-name bike from Wiggle, and has nothing to do with the quality of the underlying product.

This seems to be a bit of a religion for you; am I correct in recalling that you work in the bike retail business, and therefore have something of a vested interest?

mpatts

At work I get asked my opinion on bikes and cars a lot, I have developed a new method :

"you cycle a lot, what bike would you recommend?"
"what are you thinking of getting?"
"I've looked at x and y"
"they are good. Get one of those"

It's the same with cars.

rolf_f

spasypaddy wrote:

Instead of buying cheap carbon from PX you might as well buy the frame off ebay, groupset from merlin and some wheels and finishing kit.

same quality, same standard of customer care, same factory.

You won't get the same standard of customer care for the frame if it is off Ebay (unless you mean buying brand new off Ebay which doesn't necessarily involve any saving...).

spasypaddy

TGOTB wrote:

What evidence do you have that the big manufacturers have lower standards or better QC than someone like PX? PX won't be buying these frames off the shelf; they'll be working with a manufacturer, just as the big names do; they'll be controlling the QA process, just as the big names do.

What evidence do you have that PX use open moulds? If you're confident about this, I challenge you to find an open mould frame identical to my (excellent and incredibly stiff) XLS.

Customer care from PX is going to be much more straightforward if something goes wrong than buying a frame from eBay. They're a UK company, all your normal UK rights apply. Not quite as easy as going to your LBS (except that I find it very difficult to get to my LBS when it's actually open) but no different to buying a brand-name bike from Wiggle, and has nothing to do with the quality of the underlying product.

This seems to be a bit of a religion for you; am I correct in recalling that you work in the bike retail business, and therefore have something of a vested interest?

from seeing the quality in finish and standard of frame from the cheap to the extremely expensive. i am quietly confident that the stuff from PX/ribble isnt to the same standards as the 'premium brands'.

when my frame broke they didnt offer me anything, they didnt even want to inspect the frame to make sure it didnt happen again. It didnt crack in an accident, the rear aluminium dropout came detached from the carbon. the frame was at best 3 years old and was given a lovely life, rarely seeing bad weather and not ridden in the winter. their customer care on that occasion was disgusting and appalling. so yes i have a bug bear over PX for their customer service.

i do work in the industry (not that it makes any difference), one day a week, so i can get a good discount on parts and equipment. i probably sell one bike every 2 months and thats more often than not a hybrid and the only other sales i make are to friends that come to me with a specific request. I normally actually refer my clubmates who want good quality stuff to other companies who stock better and deal with nicer equipment that i.

top of the range of one material is better than the bottom of the range of another. just because its carbon doesnt mean its good.

itboffin

If i were to buy another AL bike there's no question it would be one of these

https://www.canyon.com/_en/roadbikes/bike.html?b=3193

£1199 for a Ultegra 6800 equipped bike



or you could go top of the range Ultimate AL SLX frameset and build it up yourself, although I doubt in the long run that would be cheaper than buying the complete £2k bike

samsbike

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I resisted the temptation to suggest an Equilibrium, but that is clearly the sensible way forward. I've not heard a bad word against them.

Likewise. And they do a disc version now as well.

They're relatively hefty. If you want something spritly then it's not the bike to go for.

Strangely enough, I've been thinking of getting an ali frame to use on the commute. I've got too used to the incredible fun of my CR1 that my steel bike (it was an Equilibrium and is now a Fratello) just feels sluggish. I was thinking about a Caad 10 or a Kinesis, but the Canyon's a good call. But then maybe I should look out for a carbon bargain. I only wish I'd bought two of the Scotts.

I think the quality of steel may make a difference. I am currently riding an old Ciocc in columbus tubing and it really just glides. I dont think you are that far from me in London, pm if you want a ride.

Going back to the thread though - I would suggest a Trek Domane 2.1 but it maybe difficult at £1k with 105 (looks like you can).
From this site

http://www.cooksoncycles.co.uk/bikes/ro ... cification and
http://road.cc/content/news/84822-just-trek-madone-21

Its looks like tiagra is last years 105 or they have made an error.

rolf_f

spasypaddy wrote:

i am quietly confident that the stuff from PX/ribble isnt to the same standards as the 'premium brands'.

I wouldn't be that confident if I were you. I mean, yes, my Ribble isn't as lovely as my Look. The lay up could be tidier (but then there is a lot of gloss lacquered UD carbon on it which isn't easy to get to look tidy. But otherwise - the monocoque is really pretty good - I'd expect it to be less flawless than the lugged tubular structure of the Look but it's good all the same. Inside the finish seems pretty good too. The paintwork is lasting well over 13000 miles (18000 for the forks - after a very painless frame swap under warranty). Aside from stone chips, there is one irritating reasonably new crack in the lacquer on the head tube - but that's really small and many wouldn't have noticed it. I'm not sure though that, unlike the Look, just because the Ribble doesn't have the lettering done by masking through to the carbon weave that it counts as "lower standard".

Build quality of the bike itself was good as well and I was able to spec every component I wanted (which you can't do on all premium models) so I suspect the buying experience was, in some ways, better than you might get ordering a Specialized Venge.

All things considered there are loads of things I love about the Look and loads of things I love about the Ribble - but, in all fairness, the things I love about the Ribble are clear and tangible and the things I love about the Look are often rather less tangible!

itboffin

Yep as Rolf has said dont discount the Ribbles i love mine and ride it more than any of my other bikes including my Scott & Cervelo

roger_merriman

rjsterry wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

Are you ever going to carry ddd on it? If you are going to put a child seat on it steel may be better.

Nope never.

That's a shame. I still have a daft idea to take the littl'un up Box Hill in the Hamax. Probably have to be the 2yo as the 4yo is pushing the weight limits of the Hamax now.

Well last time I was at BoxHill on the roadie was a dad and girl making fine progress up the hill, she was 7/9 or so. Both had seeming enjoying it.

twist83

notsoblue wrote:

spasypaddy wrote:

of course but the point is, these big manufacturers have standards, huge R+D departments and a good QC, and then most have good customer service.

compare that to open mould frame that PX use. in a factory with basic QC.

Instead of buying cheap carbon from PX you might as well buy the frame off ebay, groupset from merlin and some wheels and finishing kit.

same quality, same standard of customer care, same factory.

Sounds like you had a bad experience with PX... I've had an SL Pro for almost 4 years now, for 3 of those years I was commuting on it daily, I've done about half a dozen sportives and La Marmotte and I've not had any problems with the frame other than it being a noodly for someone my size. So in defense of cheap, entry level frames I'd say that in my experience they can be pretty good value. If I was racing or really took my road cycling very seriously I'd probably invest in a stiffer frame, but to be honest, I've been really happy with cheap carbon so far... And PX have been alright too. They replaced a cracked FSA crank with a SRAM Red one with minimal fuss, though they weren't very helpful with a recurring problem with the headset that was caused by a problem with the stem.

Buying a cheap bike will always involve some compromise, but as long as you understand that I don't see what the problem is.

Agree with you on this. I have had a Planet X Pro Carbon for 2 1/2 years now. I have put about 6000 miles on it and I also bought it used. Not a problem here. I am not the lightest rider either. Granted more expensive frames are generally better.

But I think it was summed up above. A lot of the time you are paying for the overheads and R+D of a large company.

samsbike

Just to add to the PX debate, although irrelevant, my bro in law has one, bought s/hand and it has served him well for over 2 years of commuting.

Still reckon the trek domane is the one to have

jonny_trousers

samsbike wrote:

Jonny_Trousers wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

I resisted the temptation to suggest an Equilibrium, but that is clearly the sensible way forward. I've not heard a bad word against them.

Likewise. And they do a disc version now as well.

They're relatively hefty. If you want something spritly then it's not the bike to go for.

Strangely enough, I've been thinking of getting an ali frame to use on the commute. I've got too used to the incredible fun of my CR1 that my steel bike (it was an Equilibrium and is now a Fratello) just feels sluggish. I was thinking about a Caad 10 or a Kinesis, but the Canyon's a good call. But then maybe I should look out for a carbon bargain. I only wish I'd bought two of the Scotts.

I think the quality of steel may make a difference. I am currently riding an old Ciocc in columbus tubing and it really just glides. I dont think you are that far from me in London, pm if you want a ride.

Thanks! I'm sure you're exactly right, and I'm certainly not dismissing steel as the next build. To be fair on the Equilibrium and the Fratello, neither are intended to be particularly fast. I've just got too used to the amazing qualities of the CR1.

MrSweary

itboffin wrote:

If i were to buy another AL bike there's no question it would be one of these

https://www.canyon.com/_en/roadbikes/bike.html?b=3193

£1199 for a Ultegra 6800 equipped bike

I has one of these. Bought entirely because the geometry is pretty unique in the market at the mo and fits me. Lovely ride - very comfy, light and responsive. Full Ultegra 6800 for £1200.... Scalp plenty of people on carbon bikes...

memsley89

Giant TCR SL 2 reviewed here

A few places have the 2012 model on sale, many with enough spare change to replace the wheelset.
I commute on mine, and even use it as a bad weather crit course racer.

The best alu frame I've ever ridden, and better feel than many carbon frames. And lighter to boot.

jzed

I have a Planet X SL that has been used a regular commuter over the last three years and has covered 15,000 miles. They are not particularly stiff, but then again I'm over 100kg and have to put out a reasonable amount of power. They are relatively light and good value for the kit it came with back in 2010/2011.

I also have a Dolan Prefissio. That is Alu and stiff. However, it just feels too heavy, and I can get better performance from the PX.

I was recently in Lanzarote and rode a Trek Madone 3.1 which I believe is the entry level carbon frame. The bike wasn't as light as the planet X but it was stiff.

My Supersix Evo is both stiff and light, however, thats a completely different price point.

Now I just need to build the Scott up and see what the deal is. The PX is likely to be relegated to wet weather commuter.