World Championship - ***SPOILERS***

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  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,182
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    While I understand that there is a natural reluctance to criticise a British team's performance in these parts, I am a bit surprised at the rush to defend the performance.

    I'm struggling to find anyone rushing to defend the performance. Split seems to be (minority) saying 'how dare they throw in the towel?' and most saying 'what's the point?' - which I think you agree with.
  • Mikey23
    Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    I was disappointed and embarrassed ... These guys are supposed to be the best we have and get paid and nurtured enough as pro racers. Yes the weather conditions were quite appalling and dangerous but so they were for everybody. I wouldn't have gone out in that but I ain't a pro. You just have to get on and do it, even if you come last.. Like Taylor phinney did last year...

    Reminded me of little of the England football team at times... Overpaid underperforming prima donnas
  • frisbee
    frisbee Posts: 691
    Mikey23 wrote:
    I was disappointed and embarrassed ... These guys are supposed to be the best we have and get paid and nurtured enough as pro racers. Yes the weather conditions were quite appalling and dangerous but so they were for everybody. I wouldn't have gone out in that but I ain't a pro. You just have to get on and do it, even if you come last.. Like Taylor phinney did last year...

    Reminded me of little of the England football team at times... Overpaid underperforming prima donnas

    Second over the line is the first looser.

    Its not like a stage race, as soon as you are out of contention for the win there is no point in continuing.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    edited September 2013
    Mikey23 wrote:
    I was disappointed and embarrassed ... These guys are supposed to be the best we have and get paid and nurtured enough as pro racers. Yes the weather conditions were quite appalling and dangerous but so they were for everybody. I wouldn't have gone out in that but I ain't a pro. You just have to get on and do it, even if you come last.. Like Taylor phinney did last year...

    Reminded me of little of the England football team at times... Overpaid underperforming prima donnas
    Between them they have won:
    2 Tours de France
    6 Grand Tour Podiums
    1 World Championship
    6 Olympic Gold medals
    52 Grand Tour stages
    3 Grand Tour Points Jerseys
    1 Monument
    6 Other World Tour stage races

    Eight years ago the GB team rode for the Italians and we were pretending Magnus Backstedt was British.

    You're like one of those spoilt rich kids who has a tantrum because the Porsche they got for their 18th birthday was the wrong colour,
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Loretta Damage
    Loretta Damage Posts: 270
    Looks like its going to rain tomorrow so I'm going to to take a leaf out of Team GB's book and not bother going to work.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,549
    Mikey23 wrote:
    I was disappointed and embarrassed ... These guys are supposed to be the best we have and get paid and nurtured enough as pro racers. Yes the weather conditions were quite appalling and dangerous but so they were for everybody. I wouldn't have gone out in that but I ain't a pro. You just have to get on and do it, even if you come last.. Like Taylor phinney did last year...

    Reminded me of little of the England football team at times... Overpaid underperforming prima donnas

    British Cycling don't pay their wages, Sky do.
  • john1967
    john1967 Posts: 366
    Mikey23 wrote:
    I was disappointed and embarrassed ... These guys are supposed to be the best we have and get paid and nurtured enough as pro racers. Yes the weather conditions were quite appalling and dangerous but so they were for everybody. I wouldn't have gone out in that but I ain't a pro. You just have to get on and do it, even if you come last.. Like Taylor phinney did last year...

    Reminded me of little of the England football team at times... Overpaid underperforming prima donnas

    At least footballers have to play on to the final whistle even when there's no hope of winning.I as a British cycling fan have been seriously let down.I train in the rain so I can race in the rain because I know it increases my chances of winning not least because the soft gits don't turn up.
  • carl_p
    carl_p Posts: 989
    Strange race in many respects. I don't think I've ever seen so many cars and motorcycles, almost outnumbered the riders.
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  • john1967
    john1967 Posts: 366
    andyp wrote:
    Mikey23 wrote:
    I was disappointed and embarrassed ... These guys are supposed to be the best we have and get paid and nurtured enough as pro racers. Yes the weather conditions were quite appalling and dangerous but so they were for everybody. I wouldn't have gone out in that but I ain't a pro. You just have to get on and do it, even if you come last.. Like Taylor phinney did last year...

    Reminded me of little of the England football team at times... Overpaid underperforming prima donnas

    British Cycling don't pay their wages, Sky do.

    What? Sky pay cav?
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,436
    "Losing like this is stupid," said a tearful Rodriguez. "Winning is all that matters so this medal doesn't mean anything to me right now.

    "We (Spain) had the numbers; we were the strongest; we should not have lost."
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • knedlicky
    knedlicky Posts: 3,097
    Pross wrote:
    The other finishers were in the lead group until it all kicked off on the final lap so either had some chance of getting in the medals or helping a team mate do so.
    I partly understand no one agreeing with john1967 - maybe he honestly doesn’t realise how few finishers there often are in one-day races, compared to starters (I think the finisher list of most classics is about 50-60%, with maybe another 10-20% finishing, but outside the time limit. The other 30-40% will have withdrawn underway).
    In the World Championship RR, the drop-out/withdrawal rate is probably even higher, due to the wide range of abilities and also due to what the sponsors expect of their riders (avoid injury/over-exertion, etc).
    Nonetheless, even though I’m never in a million years a flag-waver, I think john1967 does have a point of sorts.

    - it’s not true all finishers were in the group of 42 at the beginning of the last lap, so theoretically "with either some chance of getting in the medals or helping a team mate do so" (as Pross posted). A further 19 who finished had already been dropped by then, but still carried on to the bitter end. So not for everyone did a top placing/help a team-mate count as reason to finish.
    - 7 of the 61 riders who finished were French, and no one can argue that any of their 9 starters had a real chance of getting in the medals. Similarly, 50% or more of the allowed contingent of riders from 8 countries finished – Czech Rep., Russia, France, Germany, Portugal, Belgium, Norway, Rumania - not all of which had anyone with a realistic chance of a medal. So maybe national pride (or lack of) does play a role.
    - of the other countries allowed a 8- or 9-strong contingent of riders (Poland, France, Columbia, Spain, Italy, Switzerland, Netherlands, Australia) only the last-named had as many DNFs as the GB, and even then one of theirs did finish (Clarke, 7th). If it were FIFA who decided what size contingent each country gets in 2014, the GB allocation would definitely be less!

    Another important aspect is that the GB withdrawal from the RR is a divergence from the British ‘Corinthian’ attitude that, to take part is all important, whether one wins or not.
    I think already in UK society, there is an attitude that ‘If I can’t win/succeed/score, then I won’t bother’. BC and UK Sport try to encourage the 'taking part' aspect but when their professional representatives don’t follow this advice, it’s a poor advertisment for the idea, at least related to cycling.

    Not surprisingly, I therefore agree with these posts:
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    While I understand that there is a natural reluctance to criticise a British team's performance in these parts, I am a bit surprised at the rush to defend the performance.
    Mikey23 wrote:
    These guys are supposed to be the best we have and get paid and nurtured enough as pro racers. Yes the weather conditions were quite appalling and dangerous but so they were for everybody. ... You just have to get on and do it, even if you come last
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    john1967 wrote:
    What? Sky pay cav?

    Oh come on, you know what he meant. But to answer your question Cav's paid by a combination of a rich Czech, big-pharma and fake wooden floors, while Steve Cummings is paid by Andy Rihs.

    This whole, 'let down' argument is getting silly. Yes the GB lads didn't exactly shower themselves in collective glory - some bad luck aside for some, but why are people also not criticising all the other riders who DNF? Where's the opprobrium for most of the Americans, most of the Australians etc. etc? We can criticise GB's failure to make the selection when it hit the circuit but to start saying they are soft and a disgrace when they did what everyone else who had no hope of winning the race did is just a bit silly. You'd get pulled if you were dropping too far back on a circuit anyway no?
    Correlation is not causation.
  • hammerite
    hammerite Posts: 3,408
    Carl_P wrote:
    Strange race in many respects. I don't think I've ever seen so many cars and motorcycles, almost outnumbered the riders.

    Most races have 18-22 teams each with a team car..... not sure how many nations were represented or whether they all had team cars, but it's got to make a difference.

    For me the fact all the Brits abandoned when they'd been dropped wasn't the problem - it's they way things work at the Worlds. It was the ridiculous armchair ride they gave everyone in the first 100km. If Cav wants to sit on the front, no problem, let him do it in rotation with a Belgian, Italian, Spaniard, Swiss and a Slovak to keep the break in check.... but to have the whole team on the front tiring everyone out was just silly.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,549
    Why? The only way Froome was going to be in with a chance was if it was a hard and selective race (and it was). The GB goal therefore, was to make it hard early, and they did that.

    The fact that Froome wasn't on a good day wasn't known at that point.
  • roypsb
    roypsb Posts: 309
    Very disappointed for Rodriguez, the nearly man. I so wanted him to win.

    Absolutely delighted there was no medal for Nibali. Cheats should not prosper.
  • RonB
    RonB Posts: 3,984
    Maybe among us after all :wink:

    UK Cycling Expert @ukcyclingexpert 2h
    Stern words from Team GB coach Rob Ellingworth!! He gave the lads the hair dryer treatment today! How can he speak to Sir Wiggins like that?


    UK Cycling Expert @ukcyclingexpert 7h
    Hearing reports that all the Team GB riders have retired!!! Can't believe Sir Wiggins and the rest would give up the sport because of rain!!
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    andyp wrote:
    Why? The only way Froome was going to be in with a chance was if it was a hard and selective race (and it was). The GB goal therefore, was to make it hard early, and they did that.

    The fact that Froome wasn't on a good day wasn't known at that point.

    Why back Froome in the first place? A guy with zero experience of contesting a one-day race. I know it's easy in hindsight, but Stannard, Cummings or Thomas should have been given free roles with GB doing zero work on the front all day.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,908
    andyp wrote:
    Why? The only way Froome was going to be in with a chance was if it was a hard and selective race (and it was). The GB goal therefore, was to make it hard early, and they did that.

    The fact that Froome wasn't on a good day wasn't known at that point.

    Other teams also had the same interest, but the British team did all the work. Same as last year. The only reason only one team should do all the work is if they have the dead cert for the finish e.g. Belgiums last year, British year before etc.
  • adr82
    adr82 Posts: 4,002
    So many people taking the chance to have a good moan in this thread... and/or talking utter crap (john1967, I'm looking at you :roll:). I'm not out to defend the GB performance, but who cares if the team withdrew? I couldn't watch it live but it sounds like it rapidly became obvious from their collective performances throughout the race that Froome wasn't in with a chance of a medal, so why bother riding the rest of it simply to finish half an hour behind? Not to mention the risk of someone having a serious crash that'd wreck their preparation for next season.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    afx237vi wrote:
    andyp wrote:
    Why? The only way Froome was going to be in with a chance was if it was a hard and selective race (and it was). The GB goal therefore, was to make it hard early, and they did that.

    The fact that Froome wasn't on a good day wasn't known at that point.

    Why back Froome in the first place? A guy with zero experience of contesting a one-day race. I know it's easy in hindsight, but Stannard, Cummings or Thomas should have been given free roles with GB doing zero work on the front all day.

    Ironically the best rider for the job would have been JTL :P

    Sounds like I missed a cracker (both days) :( Unfortunately I was MTBing today...
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  • durhamwasp
    durhamwasp Posts: 1,247
    Absolutely embarrassing that GB didn't have a single rider willing to finish the race, and then to blame the rain just rubbed salt in...

    I think this was related to something else going on this weekend.
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  • mroli
    mroli Posts: 3,622
    durhamwasp wrote:
    Absolutely embarrassing that GB didn't have a single rider willing to finish the race, and then to blame the rain just rubbed salt in...
    It was a miserable day and no-one was going to win or podium. Staying out there just ran the risk of you having a big crash that at the least ends your season and disrupts your winter training. These guys have had a long season and want to put their feet up with their families and have some quality downtime. Hard to do that with broken limbs...

    No problem with anyone retiring having given it a crack...
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  • john1967
    john1967 Posts: 366
    adr82 wrote:
    So many people taking the chance to have a good moan in this thread... and/or talking utter crap (john1967, I'm looking at you :roll:). I'm not out to defend the GB performance, but who cares if the team withdrew? I couldn't watch it live but it sounds like it rapidly became obvious from their collective performances throughout the race that Froome wasn't in with a chance of a medal, so why bother riding the rest of it simply to finish half an hour behind? Not to mention the risk of someone having a serious crash that'd wreck their preparation for next season.

    Yep sorry I thought we were discussing the world championship.silly me. Why bother showing a bit of passion when you can just **** it and go home.
  • hammerite
    hammerite Posts: 3,408
    andyp wrote:
    Why? The only way Froome was going to be in with a chance was if it was a hard and selective race (and it was). The GB goal therefore, was to make it hard early, and they did that.

    The fact that Froome wasn't on a good day wasn't known at that point.

    Who did they make it hard for? Themselves, definitely. No one was shelled out until the Italians went for it in the first few laps.

    There's plenty of chance to make the race hard over 270km, you don't have to try to do it all in the first 100km. Lots of the Team GB riders should have been able to keep with that group over those climbs for a good few laps, if not until the very end - crashes and mechanicals permitting. They didn't even last one lap! The Italians let up after 2-3 laps all the Brits had been dumped and retired, had they not sat on the front I'm sure a few of them would still have been in the race.

    I'm not saying Froome would have won, or even been in with a shout, but you have to remain in the race to stand any kind of chance.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    adr82 wrote:
    So many people taking the chance to have a good moan in this thread... and/or talking utter crap (john1967, I'm looking at you :roll:). I'm not out to defend the GB performance, but who cares if the team withdrew? I couldn't watch it live but it sounds like it rapidly became obvious from their collective performances throughout the race that Froome wasn't in with a chance of a medal, so why bother riding the rest of it simply to finish half an hour behind? Not to mention the risk of someone having a serious crash that'd wreck their preparation for next season.

    Preparation for next year taking priority over racing the most important single day race of the year?
    Mmm, I guess our definitions of talking crap, differ.

    I really hope we aren't going to head down the old, only 3 weeks in July route.

    All I can say is if teams adopt this philosophy, the future of the monuments looks bleak.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • davidof
    davidof Posts: 3,116
    Sky actually finished 4 riders, it was only the GB members of Sky who bailed.

    Team GB/Sky seem to have issues with tactics in single day races without any backup plan when Plan A doesn't work out.

    BTW the American Afficianodos are not happy with their team either.
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  • gpreeves
    gpreeves Posts: 454
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    adr82 wrote:
    So many people taking the chance to have a good moan in this thread... and/or talking utter crap (john1967, I'm looking at you :roll:). I'm not out to defend the GB performance, but who cares if the team withdrew? I couldn't watch it live but it sounds like it rapidly became obvious from their collective performances throughout the race that Froome wasn't in with a chance of a medal, so why bother riding the rest of it simply to finish half an hour behind? Not to mention the risk of someone having a serious crash that'd wreck their preparation for next season.

    Preparation for next year taking priority over racing the most important single day race of the year?
    Mmm, I guess our definitions of talking crap, differ.

    I really hope we aren't going to head down the old, only 3 weeks in July route.

    All I can say is if teams adopt this philosophy, the future of the monuments looks bleak.

    Would be a fair point, except that this isn't actually what adr82 said. His point was that once you're out the back of the most important single day race, you clearly aren't going to be winning that race. At that point it would be silly to carry on and risk injury for zero reward.

    I'm neither surprised nor feeling let down by the Brits withdrawing today, it's just one of those things that happens in a one-day race. What did surprise me was that while none of the British riders made the initial selection, a 25 year old Romanian (without any team mates) managed to hang onto that group until the penultimate lap.
  • Mikey23
    Mikey23 Posts: 5,306
    @richN55... Yes, I'm afraid so. All those worthy achievements gone in a moment of abject surrender. Not the plucky Dunkirk spirit we've come to expect from our boys

    And how did you know about that car thing? How would you feel when you wanted a red one... Tough break at 18
  • RonB
    RonB Posts: 3,984
    From Cadel's Diary, Sunday, 29 September 2013 -

    Beautiful city, nice circuit, great Aussie team, terrible weather today... That was the most dangerous race I remember doing, and in a World Championships...what a messy situation. I managed to negotiate my way through the crashes on the first lap, but not the second. Nothing I could do to avoid the pile-up in front of me at the speed we were moving, and before I knew it I was on deck too. Tearing the first layer of the seat of my pants off, loosing two gloves off my left hand, and something hit my calf so hard it resembled a small pumpkin within seconds... Ambulance (with S. Sanchez, Tanner and Zaugg) -hospital-radiology... Certainly not what I had come here for. I could only follow the race via Internet so I cannot comment on much, only to say I'm very happy for my mate/roommate who hung in and flew the flag for us. Simon (Clarke) rode above himself to come in a well-deserved seventh. From here, I will be busy at the physiotherapists - in the next few days at least - in hope of being able to start Lombardia next Sunday. Not great, but considering how much worse it could have been, not so bad.
  • hammerite
    hammerite Posts: 3,408
    gpreeves wrote:
    What did surprise me was that while none of the British riders made the initial selection, a 25 year old Romanian (without any team mates) managed to hang onto that group until the penultimate lap.

    that was my thought too, here he is..... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrei_Nechita
    http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider_palm.asp?riderid=8973&year=2013&all=1&current=0

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