Pub Talk. Britain's greatest male road cyclist?

hammerite

deejay wrote:

davidof wrote:

Simpson has a palmares that a modern cyclist would die for (erm so to speak). Lots of podiums on major races. A Philippe Gilbert of his day.

Plus whatever they won in those days should be worth twice as much as today's riders who are mollycoddled in their training and at races on Tarmac Roads. :roll:

Although modern and cyclists in other years both won against their peers who were racing in the same conditions. So this invalidates the argument.

(perhaps your answer was tongue in cheek :oops: )

RichN95.

deejay wrote:

davidof wrote:

Simpson has a palmares that a modern cyclist would die for (erm so to speak). Lots of podiums on major races. A Philippe Gilbert of his day.

Plus whatever they won in those days should be worth twice as much as today's riders who are mollycoddled in their training and at races on Tarmac Roads. :roll:

And in Simpson's time there were no Americans, Eastern Europeans, Scandinavians, Colombians and Australians to dilute the talent pool. Or many Germans or Spaniards either. It was basically people from three or four countries.

People bang on about riders from the past. But in the last few years we have had World Champions from Poland, UK, Australia, Norway and Portugal. Where were those countries in Simpson's time? (Simpson for the UK, of course). And Grand Tour winners from Canada, Kenya, USA, Australia, Colombia. Monument winners from Kazakhstan, Norway, Ireland, Australia.

The old greats largely had p1ss poor competition

mm1

deejay wrote:

tonyf34 wrote:

Greatest ever British Road cyclist isn't a male... http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j& ... ysEArKzxzg

I'm a Simpson man first, but Beryl was outstanding and as she past me for 4 minutes on the Southend Road I had a good fairly long view of her power without any body movement.
In a RTTC 12 hour race she caught and dropped Mike McNamara who won the mens race with a record distance of 276 and half miles as she won the Ladies 12 hour with a Ladies record of 277 and a quarter miles.
He must have stayed with her a lot longer than I did.
She would have won many Worlds and Olympic Titles except for the Druggy Soviets and East Germans who looked like men. ?
I seem to remember she worked in Morley on her own "Small Holding" growing vegetables.

Beryl worked for Mike McNamara growing rhubarb, when she caught him she famously offered him a licorice allsort. If you get the chance listen to the Maxine Peake radio play (which was produced on stage as part of the run up to the Grand Depart).

davidof

RichN95 wrote:

And in Simpson's time there were no Americans, Eastern Europeans, Scandinavians, Colombians and Australians to dilute the talent pool. Or many Germans or Spaniards either. It was basically people from three or four countries.

That much harder for an outsider like Simpson to ride at the level he did.

but it is true that a modern Mercxk couldn't win two Grand tours, most of the event jerseys and loads of classics, all in a single year.

Cannock Chase

Sorry haven't read all of the posts on this topic.

So just to be sure of what we are asking here (after all it is pub talk and you know how pub talk goes after a few bevvies), according to t'internet, 'Britain' is England and Wales, 'Great Britain' is England Wales and Scotland, the 'British Isles' are England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Eire.

So if we can spread out to the British Isles, I'll add Sean Kelly and Stephen Roach into the melting pot.

Daz555

Cannock Chase wrote:

Sorry haven't read all of the posts on this topic.

So just to be sure of what we are asking here (after all it is pub talk and you know how pub talk goes after a few bevvies), according to t'internet, 'Britain' is England and Wales, 'Great Britain' is England Wales and Scotland, the 'British Isles' are England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Eire.

So if we can spread out to the British Isles, I'll add Sean Kelly and Stephen Roach into the melting pot.

"Britain's greatest"....surely we all now this to mean greatest rider who is British. Otherwise Cav would not fit as he was not born on the island of Great Britain. He is British though.

But yeah I see your point - the Britain, Great Britain, British and Irish Isles, thing.....complicatedish.

As for Roach and Kelly - both greats. Have to give the nod to Kelly though ahead of Roach as the former has a more varied road career and wins out over Roach's two GTs.

DeVlaeminck

Cannock Chase wrote:

Sorry haven't read all of the posts on this topic.

So just to be sure of what we are asking here (after all it is pub talk and you know how pub talk goes after a few bevvies), according to t'internet, 'Britain' is England and Wales, 'Great Britain' is England Wales and Scotland, the 'British Isles' are England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland and Eire.

So if we can spread out to the British Isles, I'll add Sean Kelly and Stephen Roach into the melting pot.

Well for me they'd be one and two with Kelly top and Roche following.

As for the comment on Merckx - I'm sure he'd win less but I think a couple of grand tours in a year would be doable - I think there are three riders currently who could win the Tour and one other in a year. What we may never see again is a rider who can win cobbled classics, hilly classics and grand tours - or at least not multiple times.

ugo.santalucia

1) Cavendish has won pretty much everything a sprinter can win... and he has been world Champion... no brainer!
2) Wiggins has set the stage... a Brit can win the Tour!
3) Simpson was the first British rider to be taken seriously in France

So far, Froome's achievements have not been milestones... but he has potential

specialgueststar

Joey is the greatest British cyclist - he broke through from amateur an gave every cyclist an inkling of what is possible - Boardman came next - amd he got 4th in amstel gold as a 'guest' = an enigma/mystery/real talent

( he probably isn't - but in popular culture ....is!)

RichN95.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

3) Simpson was the first British rider to be taken seriously in France

They took Brian Robinson seriously before him.

mm1

SpecialGuestStar wrote:

Joey is the greatest British cyclist - he broke through from amateur an gave every cyclist an inkling of what is possible - Boardman came next - amd he got 4th in amstel gold as a 'guest' = an enigma/mystery/real talent

( he probably isn't - but in popular culture ....is!)

Ah Joey. It's interesting to think what more Joey, Malcolm, Tanner (who outsprinted Bugno once), Randall et al could have done with Sky style backing. Going back a generation, Lome Driessens always reckoned that Sid Barras could have been world champion.

kleinstroker

Tom Simpson's story is part of cycling lore I guess, but his death was caused by drugs and alcohol. He wasnt a clean rider so should not even be considered for best cyclist IMO. Brad whatever his failings and tantrums etc has done more for British cycling than anyone by far.

salsiccia1

mm1 wrote:

Ah Joey. It's interesting to think what more Joey, Malcolm, Tanner (who outsprinted Bugno once), Randall et al could have done with Sky style backing. Going back a generation, Lome Driessens always reckoned that Sid Barras could have been world champion.

Don't forget Adrian Timmis.

shockedsoshocked

SpecialGuestStar wrote:

Joey is the greatest British cyclist - he broke through from amateur an gave every cyclist an inkling of what is possible - Boardman came next - amd he got 4th in amstel gold as a 'guest' = an enigma/mystery/real talent

( he probably isn't - but in popular culture ....is!)

Apparently Joey failed to pay up to PDM/Rooks when he won the Kellogs Tour and consequently the European lads remembered that.

By the same token you could include Paul Curran if you're including Joey?

Dippydog3

Chris Hoy says about Wiggo.

"Across the board he is clearly the most successful cyclist we've ever had. No-one else has done what he's done.

"It's very hard to compare him to Chris Boardman or Mark Cavendish or other athletes from different eras and different disciplines.

"But no-one has won the Tour de France and won track world titles, Olympic titles, a road world title. It speaks for itself.

"The status within the sport, not just in the UK, but around the world, the level of recognition he gets, it's all down to success he's had."

deejay

kleinstroker wrote:

Tom Simpson's story is part of cycling lore I guess, but his death was caused by drugs and alcohol. He wasnt a clean rider so should not even be considered for best cyclist IMO. Brad whatever his failings and tantrums etc has done more for British cycling than anyone by far.

Sorry but Amphetamines and Wine were standard in the peloton in those years and it dosn't need the opinion of some little nobody to belittle those riders of that era.
Tom Simpson went to France at his own expense and earnt prizes as an amateur where he learnt his trade in the French Peloton. (including stimulants they used)

He had no Lottery Money to support him in his early years like SIR B.

Jez mon

deejay wrote:

kleinstroker wrote:

Tom Simpson's story is part of cycling lore I guess, but his death was caused by drugs and alcohol. He wasnt a clean rider so should not even be considered for best cyclist IMO. Brad whatever his failings and tantrums etc has done more for British cycling than anyone by far.

Sorry but Amphetamines and Wine were standard in the peloton in those years and it dosn't need the opinion of some little nobody to belittle those riders of that era.
Tom Simpson went to France at his own expense and earnt prizes as an amateur where he learnt his trade in the French Peloton. (including stimulants they used)

He had no Lottery Money to support him in his early years like SIR B.

EPO and blood transfusions were standard in the days of lance Armstrong...so what's the difference...aside from lance having the better palmeres (until his trial)

RichN95.

Jez mon wrote:

deejay wrote:

kleinstroker wrote:

Tom Simpson's story is part of cycling lore I guess, but his death was caused by drugs and alcohol. He wasnt a clean rider so should not even be considered for best cyclist IMO. Brad whatever his failings and tantrums etc has done more for British cycling than anyone by far.

Sorry but Amphetamines and Wine were standard in the peloton in those years and it dosn't need the opinion of some little nobody to belittle those riders of that era.
Tom Simpson went to France at his own expense and earnt prizes as an amateur where he learnt his trade in the French Peloton. (including stimulants they used)

He had no Lottery Money to support him in his early years like SIR B.

EPO and blood transfusions were standard in the days of lance Armstrong...so what's the difference...aside from lance having the better palmeres (until his trial)

You can't really view the 60s through current day morality. You have to consider his doping within the context of his time. Doping was not the big deal it is today. Doping wasn't even banned for most of Simpson's career and even when it's punishments were meagre. Even as late as 1988 a testosterone positive at the Tour was only punished by a ten minute penalty.

type:epyt

Cycling fans are certainly keen on their romanticising of riders that die as a result of substance abuse (Simpson/Pantani).

I suggest deejay seek inspiration from the Belgian beer thread and go on a life ending bender in a bid to gain undying adoration from the cycling masses.

Bradley says the first ones on him

kleinstroker

type:epyt wrote:

Cycling fans are certainly keen on their romanticising of riders that die as a result of substance abuse (Simpson/Pantani).

I suggest deejay seek inspiration from the Belgian beer thread and go on a life ending bender in a bid to gain undying adoration from the cycling masses.

Bradley says the first ones on him

Thanks! Exactly what i would have said had I been so eloquent

Tom Dean

Wiggins has a framed Simpson rainbow jersey on his wall at home http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/bradley-wigginss-classic-collection-137924