Pub Talk. Britain's greatest male road cyclist?

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  • mroli
    mroli Posts: 3,622
    TMR wrote:
    mroli wrote:
    Greatest MALE road cyclist perhaps, but Britain's greatest road cyclist is Beryl Burton: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryl_Burton

    Err...no.

    Because? It has been stated that a WC is more than the equivalent of pretty much anything else and BB has 2 and a silver. 72 national TT wins. 25 times best all rounder. 12 times road race champion. She could only win what was put in front of her and pretty much did that.
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  • TMR
    TMR Posts: 3,986
    mroli wrote:
    Because? It has been stated that a WC is more than the equivalent of pretty much anything else and BB has 2 and a silver. 72 national TT wins. 25 times best all rounder. 12 times road race champion. She could only win what was put in front of her and pretty much did that.

    Impressive, but women's cycling doesn't interest me at all. Absolutely no offence intended to anyone.

    Also, the thread title would seem to preclude her consideration...
  • meursault
    meursault Posts: 1,433
    TheStone wrote:
    Cav by a mile.

    In 50 years time Cav will still be mentioned in every TdF commentary around the world.

    Maybe, but the thread is Britain's greatest cyclist, and Wiggins will be mentioned in 50 years time, and more as first British winner.
    Superstition sets the whole world in flames; philosophy quenches them.

    Voltaire
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,241
    mroli wrote:
    TMR wrote:
    mroli wrote:
    Greatest MALE road cyclist perhaps, but Britain's greatest road cyclist is Beryl Burton: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryl_Burton

    Err...no.

    Because? It has been stated that a WC is more than the equivalent of pretty much anything else and BB has 2 and a silver. 72 national TT wins. 25 times best all rounder. 12 times road race champion. She could only win what was put in front of her and pretty much did that.
    It's almost all at national level though. Michael Hutchinson has 50-odd national TT wins and no-one's mentioning him. And Nicole Cooke has far better international palmares.
    Maybe she would have won more if there were more races, but she didn't.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • FJS
    FJS Posts: 4,820
    meursault wrote:
    TheStone wrote:
    Cav by a mile.

    In 50 years time Cav will still be mentioned in every TdF commentary around the world.

    Maybe, but the thread is Britain's greatest cyclist, and Wiggins will be mentioned in 50 years time, and more as first British winner.
    In Britain perhaps, but not 'around the world'. There are plenty of riders who've won the TdF once.
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    YorkshireRaw wrote:
    Would be close, but maybe TB would edge it with recent Flanders & PR victories, I agree. But think about how they would have had Cav winning all those other races in the past 5/6 yrs including the WCs....

    I didn't say it would be close.
  • cal_stewart
    cal_stewart Posts: 1,840
    Simpson for me, imagine him today at sky. He'd have to lay off the pills like
    eating parmos since 1981

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  • mroli
    mroli Posts: 3,622
    RichN95 wrote:
    It's almost all at national level though. Michael Hutchinson has 50-odd national TT wins and no-one's mentioning him. And Nicole Cooke has far better international palmares.
    Maybe she would have won more if there were more races, but she didn't.

    Aye, but Hutch has never won the World road race (and silver too), nor the national road race 12 times. She was more than a pretty incredible tester. She won pretty much everything she could have done and there were no more races. Just refreshed my memory as to Nicole's palmares and its pretty special too.

    TMR - I know the thread is MALE road cyclist, but I think the achievements of Beryl and Nicole are worth celebrating and discussing in the same breath as those of Wiggins/Froome and Cav. I know it doesn't interest you, but as a father of a little girl, I'd love her to know about the amazing female cyclists this country has produced as well as the male ones.
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  • meursault
    meursault Posts: 1,433
    FJS wrote:
    meursault wrote:
    TheStone wrote:
    Cav by a mile.

    In 50 years time Cav will still be mentioned in every TdF commentary around the world.

    Maybe, but the thread is Britain's greatest cyclist, and Wiggins will be mentioned in 50 years time, and more as first British winner.
    In Britain perhaps, but not 'around the world'. There are plenty of riders who've won the TdF once.

    Yeah, which bit of this is not clear?

    Pub Talk. Britain's greatest male road cyclist?
    Superstition sets the whole world in flames; philosophy quenches them.

    Voltaire
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    Maybe a new thread for Britain's greatest female road cyclist? Then the successes of Beryl vs Nicole could be debated there
  • FJS
    FJS Posts: 4,820
    meursault wrote:
    FJS wrote:
    meursault wrote:
    TheStone wrote:
    Cav by a mile.

    In 50 years time Cav will still be mentioned in every TdF commentary around the world.

    Maybe, but the thread is Britain's greatest cyclist, and Wiggins will be mentioned in 50 years time, and more as first British winner.
    In Britain perhaps, but not 'around the world'. There are plenty of riders who've won the TdF once.

    Yeah, which bit of this is not clear?

    Pub Talk. Britain's greatest male road cyclist?
    Woah, easy mate. Whether or not a British rider has an impact internationally or just domestically can be a factor (I'd say a major one), right? A British rider doing something of worldwide significance would trump one doing something of merely national significance.
  • ozzzyosborn206
    ozzzyosborn206 Posts: 1,340
    I'd say Cav, imo he is a better sprinter than Wiggo and Froome are GC men. If in 5 years time Cav and gone downhill and Froome has won a GT almost every year like Contador then maybe that could change. As for the way Cav wins, i think if needed he could mix it up, get in breaks and attack a bit more, watching him in the Commonwealth Games race in that way was refreshing, but why would his sponsors what him to do that when he stands a much higher chance of winning and crossing the line getting his sponsors on countless website/magazines. If Wiggo was to win P-R/ Flanders then that could start to sway it but I can't see how he could beat Canc, Boonen and Sagan.....
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,310
    Do the Wiggins supporters really think there is anything on his palmares which lifts him out of the ranks of "Riders Who Have Won One Grand Tour"?


    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Maybe a new thread for Britain's greatest female road cyclist? Then the successes of Beryl vs Nicole could be debated there

    You could - but I think that would be akin to asking who's Belgium's greatest cyclist.

    "Liquorice Allsort?"
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  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Do the Wiggins supporters really think there is anything on his palmares which lifts him out of the ranks of "Riders Who Have Won One Grand Tour"?


    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Maybe a new thread for Britain's greatest female road cyclist? Then the successes of Beryl vs Nicole could be debated there

    You could - but I think that would be akin to asking who's Belgium's greatest cyclist.

    "Liquorice Allsort?"


    Sod it, for that alone Beryl will always get my vote
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Do the Wiggins supporters really think there is anything on his palmares which lifts him out of the ranks of "Riders Who Have Won One Grand Tour"?

    He's the only rider to have won Paris Nice, Tour of Romandie, Dauphine, Tour de France and the Olympic TT in the same year. Think that will do.
  • ocdupalais
    ocdupalais Posts: 4,314
    greasedscotsman wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Do the Wiggins supporters really think there is anything on his palmares which lifts him out of the ranks of "Riders Who Have Won One Grand Tour"?

    He's the only rider to have won Paris Nice, Tour of Romandie, Dauphine, Tour de France and the Olympic TT in the same year. Think that will do.

    Leave it, greased, he's not worth it.

    We'll just have to brace ourselves for the tragic sight of Wiggins and Sean Kelly falling out of the boozer consoling each with their paltry haul of 2 GTs between them and scant else to trouble the statisticians with in terms of palmares in any area of cycling.
    I used a f**tball analogy earlier - and rightly got told off by TMR: so here's a rock music one...
    Cavendish is the AC/DC (or if you want be unfair, Status Quo) to Wiggins's Cream: with one you get dependable results that hit all the right numbers - with the other, you get something that can be a bit difficult and tricksy to deal with at times, but crushingly brilliant when they got their sh!t together...
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,310
    OCDuPalais wrote:
    greasedscotsman wrote:
    TailWindHome wrote:
    Do the Wiggins supporters really think there is anything on his palmares which lifts him out of the ranks of "Riders Who Have Won One Grand Tour"?

    He's the only rider to have won Paris Nice, Tour of Romandie, Dauphine, Tour de France and the Olympic TT in the same year. Think that will do.

    Leave it, greased, he's not worth it.

    We'll just have to brace ourselves for the tragic sight of Wiggins and Sean Kelly falling out of the boozer consoling each with their paltry haul of 2 GTs between them and scant else to trouble the statisticians with in terms of palmares in any area of cycling.

    You aren't comparing Wiggins' palmares to Kelly's

    My God I think he is....

    Maybe sit out the next round fella.....drink some water....
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,310
    Surprised there hasn't been more chat about Millar.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • ocdupalais
    ocdupalais Posts: 4,314
    I believe it was yourself who coined the "Riders Who Have Won One Grand Tour" phrase - thereby comparing him to Sean Kelly because it disregards their other achievements...

    You're losing grip on the details - I said "in any area of cycling"...
    Kelly can't hold a candle when it comes to the Olympics -(remember those? That part of cycling that all us proper knowledgable cycling purists dismiss as meaningless while the rest of the World greedily hankers after every medal... The catalyst to a dominant Team GB - and subsequently Sky - and all that their roster have achieved.
    Much of a that has been on the back of Wiggins's success - first as a multiple Olympic champion; now as a Tour champion).

    Quite frankly, Kelly was nothing but a disappointment on the track... If only he hadn't squandered all those years chasing Mickey Mouse classics, his legacy might amount to more than Philip Deignan, half of Nicholas Roche, half of Dan Martin, An Post and a ropey line of Vitus bikes...
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,310
    OCDuPalais wrote:
    I believe it was yourself who coined the "Riders Who Have Won One Grand Tour" phrase - thereby comparing him to Sean Kelly because it disregards their other achievements...

    You're losing grip on the details - I said "in any area of cycling"...

    That's some fancy forum footwork there fella.


    I don't disregard Wiggin's other achievements, but neither do I get carried away.....
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • knedlicky
    knedlicky Posts: 3,097
    OCDuPalais wrote:
    Kelly can't hold a candle when it comes to the Olympics
    You forget that Kelly wasn’t allowed to enter the Olympics in 1980 or 1984 because by then he was a professional and the old amateurs-only idea still existed.
    And in 1988, when professionals were first allowed to enter, for whatever reason no pro cyclists actually did. I suppose the various NOC were still trying to keep to the amateur ideal in their selections.

    His only chance was in 1976 before he turned pro, but he was banned from taking part then because of the time he went riding in South Africa under a false name.
    I’m not sure but maybe he was even banned for life not just for the 1976 Olympics.

    If you can't enter, you can't win.
  • cesco
    cesco Posts: 252
    Like titles/wins are directly comparable anyway. (What if Froome didn't wait for Wiggins in 2012? Individual effort? Not so much). By the way, what's it with Sky's leading men and descending?

    For me, it's between Robert Millar and Cavendish. I was very young when Millar raced, but I remember Cavendish putting Britain (back?) on the map. It wasn't that long ago that you could predict with 99% confidence that he would win certain stages, and it would't matter who he picked as his lead-out or if he just used another team's train. He's also balancing nicely on that fine line between winners' mentality and being a d*ck, so at least he's got a cyclist's personality.

    Seems like it's only between four people though, so GB still has a long way to go.
  • FJS
    FJS Posts: 4,820
    knedlicky wrote:
    OCDuPalais wrote:
    Kelly can't hold a candle when it comes to the Olympics
    You forget that Kelly wasn’t allowed to enter the Olympics in 1980 or 1984 because by then he was a professional and the old amateurs-only idea still existed.
    And in 1988, when professionals were first allowed to enter, for whatever reason no pro cyclists actually did. I suppose the various NOC were still trying to keep to the amateur ideal in their selections.
    Cycling at the Olympics didnt allow professionals until 1996. Casartelli and Dekker were still amateurs in 1992
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,310
    ..............
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    cesco wrote:
    By the way, what's it with Sky's leading men and descending?

    Eh?
    cesco wrote:
    For me, it's between Robert Millar and Cavendish.

    Do you really think Robert Millar was that good? What were his major wins? A quick check lists them as the 1985 Volta a Catalunya and the 1990 Dauphine. Can't see how that makes him better than Wiggins or Froome.
  • adr82
    adr82 Posts: 4,002
    greasedscotsman wrote:
    Do you really think Robert Millar was that good? What were his major wins? A quick check lists them as the 1985 Volta a Catalunya and the 1990 Dauphine. Can't see how that makes him better than Wiggins or Froome.
    I think he was very good... 3 TdF mountain stages + KOM in 1984. Haven't seen another British rider capable of repeating those performances until Froome over the past 2 years. He was very unlucky to miss out on winning the 1985 "stolen" Vuelta which would have made him the first UK GT winner years ahead of Wiggins. 2nd again the following year, then was 2nd in the Giro in 1987 (to Roche in his best season), also winning the KOM there. In terms of pure results/wins I'll agree he probably isn't up there with Froome/Cav/Wiggins but I think he deserves a lot of credit for doing what he did without the sort of infrastructure that UK cycling has developed more recently. Plus he was a climber and I like climbers :)
  • oneof1982
    oneof1982 Posts: 703
    Questions of "the greatest" are influenced by "at the time" considerations. So for years, Millar was the one, but then, a bit like busses, along comes, Cav, Wiggins and Froome. Cav knocks out Millar, whose claim was based on one KoM jersey. Cav matches the jersey with his Green one , and a barrow load of stage wins. So he becomes the greatest.

    Then Wiggo has the season to die for, winning "everything", topped off with yellow in the TdF. By a mile, the greatest achievement by a British road cyclist, and among the best by any British sportsman. All this regardless of what the course was like, how many miles of TT etc etc. He took the line in the race and he won. He becomes the greatest.

    Now Froomie comes along and wins, with a pretty classy performance. He is neck and neck with Wiggo. Possible that Wiggo will sneak ahead with a WTT next month and a Paris Roubaix win in the Spring, but much as I'd love it, its a long shot. Anyhow, by this time next year Froomie will have won the tour for a second time, and will clearly be the best ever (so far). But Wiggo will always be the "first".
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    oneof1982 wrote:
    Questions of "the greatest" are influenced by "at the time" considerations. So for years, Millar was the one, but then, a bit like busses, along comes, Cav, Wiggins and Froome. Cav knocks out Millar, whose claim was based on one KoM jersey. Cav matches the jersey with his Green one , and a barrow load of stage wins. So he becomes the greatest.

    Then Wiggo has the season to die for, winning "everything", topped off with yellow in the TdF. By a mile, the greatest achievement by a British road cyclist, and among the best by any British sportsman. All this regardless of what the course was like, how many miles of TT etc etc. He took the line in the race and he won. He becomes the greatest.

    Now Froomie comes along and wins, with a pretty classy performance. He is neck and neck with Wiggo. Possible that Wiggo will sneak ahead with a WTT next month and a Paris Roubaix win in the Spring, but much as I'd love it, its a long shot. Anyhow, by this time next year Froomie will have won the tour for a second time, and will clearly be the best ever (so far). But Wiggo will always be the "first".


    Eeek. That's bold. I think he'll have a lot on his hands with Nibali and Quintana (not held back by Valverde this time)
  • adr82
    adr82 Posts: 4,002
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Eeek. That's bold. I think he'll have a lot on his hands with Nibali and Quintana (not held back by Valverde this time)
    Very true. Even if he does win I can't see it being an easy ride. Not to mention the ever present risk of crashes and mechanicals. He could turn up next year in great form with a stronger team and then get caught in a bunch pileup on stage 1 and break his collarbone.
  • greasedscotsman
    greasedscotsman Posts: 6,962
    adr82 wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Eeek. That's bold. I think he'll have a lot on his hands with Nibali and Quintana (not held back by Valverde this time)
    Very true. Even if he does win I can't see it being an easy ride. Not to mention the ever present risk of crashes and mechanicals. He could turn up next year in great form with a stronger team and then get caught in a bunch pileup on stage 1 and break his collarbone.

    It's still more likely that Wiggins winning Paris Roubaix!

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