TDF 2013 Stage 11 TT ***Spoilers***

thejimmymethod

A note on the comments on Froome's physique in relation to TT performance. The Sky website ( so let's take this with a pinch of salt and at least assume it dates from the start of the year) list Froome and Wiggins as the same weight, 69kg, with Wiggins a bit taller so proportionally 'skinnier'. Now, even assuming they've both lost weight since when those weights were taken I would still say Wiggins was looking slimmer at the Giro than Froome is here.

Yes, they are on the same team (for the conspiracy theorists) and it would be no suprise Wiggins doing well in this TT with his pedigree, but the point I'm aiming for is maybe physique isn't as important anymore as we traditionally think. Look at Sagan compared with the other sprinters. Ok, so he may not have beaten them this year in a sprint they've all contested but he is always up their and competitive and I would say he is not quite of a comparable build to the other "Big 3."

Daz555

Gazzetta67 wrote:

Well just watched today's TT - In a sentence.... Saxobank & Movistar hell mend them !!!! - They had 4 or 5 riders each the other day and because of pig headed arrogance by Mr wheelsucker Valverde & Contador they could have got their riders to keep on counter attacking for example Kreuziger and Rui Costa until froome "Blew Up" as there was still 100 odd Km's left his tour could have been over, Now we have a tour thats more or less a sportive ride now. nothing against froome but i hope there will something extraordinary in the Alps, if not then this race is finished.

If the riders aint got the legs then they can't form attacks against a stronger rider. Movistar may have settled for just taking out Porte but I suspect they they just didn't have the legs to worry Froome. I have no doubt that if that last climb had been a MTF, Froome would have punched away like he did the day before and took the stage win.

DeadCalm

Daz555 wrote:

Gazzetta67 wrote:

Well just watched today's TT - In a sentence.... Saxobank & Movistar hell mend them !!!! - They had 4 or 5 riders each the other day and because of pig headed arrogance by Mr wheelsucker Valverde & Contador they could have got their riders to keep on counter attacking for example Kreuziger and Rui Costa until froome "Blew Up" as there was still 100 odd Km's left his tour could have been over, Now we have a tour thats more or less a sportive ride now. nothing against froome but i hope there will something extraordinary in the Alps, if not then this race is finished.

If the riders aint got the legs then they can't form attacks against a stronger rider. Movistar may have settled for just taking out Porte but I suspect they they just didn't have the legs to worry Froome. I have no doubt that if that last climb had been a MTF, Froome would have punched away like he did the day before and took the stage win.

Which is why they should have attacked him relentlessly in the valley using their domestiques. Valverde did it once but when Froome caught them, instead of sitting up and letting the rest of the group back on in readiness for a new attack, as they should have done, they continued to ride with Froome in the wheel.

RichN95.

DeadCalm wrote:

Which is why they should have attacked him relentlessly in the valley using their domestiques. Valverde did it once but when Froome caught them, instead of sitting up and letting the rest of the group back on in readiness for a new attack, as they should have done, they continued to ride with Froome in the wheel.

But such a new attack would have been an attack on Valverde just as much as an attack on Froome.

Macaloon

RichN95 wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

Which is why they should have attacked him relentlessly in the valley using their domestiques. Valverde did it once but when Froome caught them, instead of sitting up and letting the rest of the group back on in readiness for a new attack, as they should have done, they continued to ride with Froome in the wheel.

But such a new attack would have been an attack on Valverde just as much as an attack on Froome.

...with the idea that Froome would eventually have to pull back Quintana himself, leaving him vulnerable to an uphill Valverde attack. But you would be foolish to give this a go if Valverde was near meltdown.

mike6

Yellow Peril wrote:

mike6 wrote:

Yellow Peril wrote:

Just catching up o ITV 4. Good early rides by Tuft and Martin and the fabulous Belkin Boys!. Plenty of effort by Froome coming in to the last sector but it looked quite technical and I think that's where he lost out to a TT maestro.

Slightly off topic but if anyone is racked off at what they think is one man or team ruining racing by domination they should think themselves lucky they weren't watching between 1965 and 1975.

There is a new discussion right there. Is racing ruined by one man or one team dominating? Surely a worthy winner is a worthy winner? Or does that only apply if your chosen guy or team is the one doing it?

Or are we going to damn Merckx cos he was such a great cyclist and always rode to win?

I agree Mike6 a worthy winner is a worthy winner. I want to see the best guys race in an uncompromising way and I want other riders to aspire to beat them and not settle for second best. Hopefully other teams/riders in this year's tour will take heart from Sunday's destruction of Sky and take the race to them. I don't say that from an anti Sky perspective as I admire what they have done not only in racing but in raising the profile of cycling in Britain. I say it from a pro cycling perspective.

Totally agree YP. The Tour rules, regardless of team or rider. I am not a Sky fanboi but I hate reading all this venom aimed at them, same as I would stand up for any team if I thought the criticism unfair.

lloyd_bower

frenchfighter wrote:

Froome is lucky he lifted the gas to keep a shred of credibility.

As it is he is putting a very bad image out for the sport and ruining cycling fans globally new found belief in clean racing.

I would have felt so sorry for Martin if he hadn`t won a pan flat TT. THere would have been repercussions for Froome.

Froome even had more headwind then him and still placed within 11 secs.

3.5mins from 1st to 2nd
2mins from 9th to 10th.
After 1 MTF and 1 30km TT.

DEUX VITESSES.

Your views might carry a bit more credence if it wasn't for the one eyed opinions around certain '5' time GT winner from Spain, someone with some more incredulous GT time trial wins, equalling convincing margins, who's strangely been somewhat off his previous pace, outside of Spain since returning from a ban.

Yep, Contador proven doper despite his supposed 'panache'.

It'll be some while before we know how clean of not Froome his or not, as dope test samples will be able to be tested again in the future like Jalabert's from '98.
Sadly similar with Wiggins, if he was clean his 2009 3rd or 4th place (not sure what it's officially recorded as with his Armstrong's subsequent annulment) was effectively 1st and more substantial performance than his win last year.

DeadCalm

Macaloon wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

Which is why they should have attacked him relentlessly in the valley using their domestiques. Valverde did it once but when Froome caught them, instead of sitting up and letting the rest of the group back on in readiness for a new attack, as they should have done, they continued to ride with Froome in the wheel.

But such a new attack would have been an attack on Valverde just as much as an attack on Froome.

...with the idea that Froome would eventually have to pull back Quintana himself, leaving him vulnerable to an uphill Valverde attack. But you would be foolish to give this a go if Valverde was near meltdown.

This assumes that putting all their eggs in the Valverde basket was the way to go. In the valley with two climbs still to go I think Movistar had 8 riders (5 domestiques plus Costa, Quintana and Valverde). Once they got onto the climbs those domestiques were as good as useless. None of them were going to be able to put Froome under any pressure. To make use of them, they needed to be used on the flat. Sprint from the bunch with one of the contenders on your wheel and force Froome to chase. Once caught sit up and let the bunch come back. Immediately launch another domestique / contender attack again forcing Froome to chase. Repeat until Froome is exhausted. It may not have been Valverde who eventually benefitted but at least one of them may well have done. Of course, if the main concern was to preserve Valverde's second place and keep the others as high on GC as possible then their tactics were spot on.

josame

appletrees wrote:

Must remember to stay logged in so that I don't have to read nonsense from one or two (one actually) forumites who I have blocked.

Of course, it was all fine when Contador mullered everyone in time trials and just rode away on mountain stages.

Because he has panache.

On no, I meant clenbuterol, not panache. Must learn to spell better.

Jeeze when is that ever necessary, did they use a rude word ... :roll:

mike6

josame wrote:

appletrees wrote:

Must remember to stay logged in so that I don't have to read nonsense from one or two (one actually) forumites who I have blocked.

Of course, it was all fine when Contador mullered everyone in time trials and just rode away on mountain stages.

Because he has panache.

On no, I meant clenbuterol, not panache. Must learn to spell better.

Jeeze when is that ever necessary, did they use a rude word ... :roll:

Must admit I thought very hard about doing the same thing, but I just say to myself "Dont bite,dont bite" when his bewildering posts appear.

Daz555

frenchfighter wrote:

Froome is lucky he lifted the gas to keep a shred of credibility.

As it is he is putting a very bad image out for the sport and ruining cycling fans globally new found belief in clean racing.

I would have felt so sorry for Martin if he hadn`t won a pan flat TT. THere would have been repercussions for Froome.

I'll give you one thing - you have staggering levels of unfounded self-belief.

appletrees

I think you'll find that most of us are on one particular blocked list!

Blatant trolling, unreasoned debate and of course, above all, a love of the (definitely formerly) cheating Spanish weasel...



If the views were a bit more balanced it would be a bit less frustrating, but it is targeted to an unreasonable degree IMHO.

After what the sport has been through in the last 20+ years, I think we all have to assume that incredible performances are not to be taken lightly, but I don't think we've seen anything from Froome that deviates from the form book for the last couple of years. He hasn't done Pantani style attacks, putting 5 mins plus into rivals on climbs, he hasn't done Indurain style TT destructions of his rivals. He just seems to be going well when others are looking past their best for whatever reason, be it nefarious or otherwise.

I'm no massive Sky fan and I struggle to warm to Froome to be honest - he may or may not be doping. I hope that it's the latter for the sake of cycling, and to be honest I think it is the latter...but the repeated attacks on one team whilst defending constantly Captain Steak, who never did nuffink honest guv, seem unnecessary, particularly given that he has been banned for doping.

Let's hope it is a cleaner race. Although given that FF thinks that 95% of the peloton are now clean, who is the non-Sky rider who is doping as 198 riders started, and 5% of that is 9.9 (rounded up to 10) and Sky only had 9 at the start...

If we're going to be suspicious, lets at least be balanced and acknowledge that perhaps even our heroes may have a chequered past.

disgruntledgoat

I think there's a real dearth of top GT talent at the moment as well. I reckon Nibali and Froome are head and shoulders above an out of sorts (for whatever reason) Contador, a past-it Evans, a never wa a GT rider Valverde the second tier guys like Hesjedal and Rodriguez and the young guys who haven't had their breakout yet.

RichN95.

disgruntledgoat wrote:

I think there's a real dearth of top GT talent at the moment as well. I reckon Nibali and Froome are head and shoulders above an out of sorts (for whatever reason) Contador, a past-it Evans, a never wa a GT rider Valverde the second tier guys like Hesjedal and Rodriguez and the young guys who haven't had their breakout yet.

I've got a bit of a theory about this. The peak for GC ride should be around 28-30 (ish). Now, the riders of that age would have turned pro in the last few of years of the Armstrong era, when doping was still widespread. This meant that the genuinely most talented didn't always rise to the top - either they didn't dope or didn't get the same benefits - which meant they didn't get the opportunities to shine. So now, if we are indeed in a cleaner age, many of the big natural talents have left the sport or are still behind riders who got to their leadership position with doping.

In the last couple of years there have been a few riders who have come to fore in the 30s - Wiggins, Peraud, Hesjedal, Ten Dam - who spent their 20s in the ranks or in a different area of cycling. There are maybe many more who didn't make it this far. Hence, with a cleaner peloton the genuine GC talent is thinner on the ground.

lostboysaint

Good post RichN95.

bipedal

interesting post RichN95

frenchfighter

RichN95 wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

I think there's a real dearth of top GT talent at the moment as well. I reckon Nibali and Froome are head and shoulders above an out of sorts (for whatever reason) Contador, a past-it Evans, a never wa a GT rider Valverde the second tier guys like Hesjedal and Rodriguez and the young guys who haven't had their breakout yet.

I've got a bit of a theory about this. The peak for GC ride should be around 28-30 (ish). Now, the riders of that age would have turned pro in the last few of years of the Armstrong era, when doping was still widespread. This meant that the genuinely most talented didn't always rise to the top - either they didn't dope or didn't get the same benefits - which meant they didn't get the opportunities to shine. So now, if we are indeed in a cleaner age, many of the big natural talents have left the sport or are still behind riders who got to their leadership position with doping.

In the last couple of years there have been a few riders who have come to fore in the 30s - Wiggins, Peraud, Hesjedal, Ten Dam - who spent their 20s in the ranks or in a different area of cycling. There are maybe many more who didn't make it this far. Hence, with a cleaner peloton the genuine GC talent is thinner on the ground.

Good viewpoint.

I think also there are a ton of young guys know who will make the GTs in 2015-2020 real amazing.

frenchfighter

frenchfighter

ddraver

ddraver wrote:

I confess I was going to point you all in the direction of Stage 9 for today, but I did a bit of looking into things and there's actually some interesting stuff here!

Obviously there are very strong similarities between Mont St Michel and St Michaels Mount in Cornwall. Both are isolated granite and metamorphic masses that were emplaced into Devonian age rocks. Over geological time these were then uplifted and the surrounding rocks eroded. The same process created most of Brittany, The Moors and Tors of Southern England and a few headlands around Cornwall. Essentially they are a coastal equivalent of Glastonbury Tor (with similar religious significance

What I found particularly interesting is, looking at St Michaels Mount in Cornwall, early texts (9th Centuary) suggest that the mount was actually surrounded by land and some considerable distance (10km) from the coast line. Remains of a Hazel Wood can be seen at the lowet tides surrounding St Michaels Mount but were dated to 1700BC. Without access to papers I can't find out more but in the current climate of Anthropogenic Global Warming and subsequent Sea Level Rise I though this was interesting
The islands themselves are known as tombolos which are islands joined to the land with a spit of sand which is covered at high tide. Bigbury in S Devon is another example



Surrounding both islands are large tidal flats. Essentially this coasta system runs from Cap Frehal, around the Nothern Coast of Mainland Europe into the Baltic Sea. The other Dutchies and I would feel very much at home here. In fact they have even cultivated the tidal flats for agriculture by building a series of Dykes and polders.

Tidal Flats (and for the first time this is coming from my own head - I ve done a lot of work on these recently) are large and wide areas of sand, mud or mixed sediments that are commonly deposited in areas with large tidal ranges (Bay St Michel has a range of 14m, which is very high indeed). However what is important is that the tidal range is big enough to out do any influences from wave or river processes.Obviously they are commonplace in Estuaries but may also form on coastal areas



They commonly comprise cm-scale alternating sand and mud beds. The sand beds are deposited during periods of high tidal flow and the muds during periods of quiessence. Commonly these beds are rippled



The absolute classic geological feature which is as close to diagnostic as anything in geology is is bidirectional or herringbone cross lamination. One ripple, pointing one way, is deposited during the tidal flood (water rising) and one in the other direction is deposited on top during the ebb (water falling)

These sediments are commonly then disturbed by animal burrows and traces (ichnofossils) which are then preserved in the rock. Some of these can be seen in the pic below (these will become Rosselia or Phycosiphon Burrows IMO)



TIdal Flats are often cross cut by Tidal Channels. These are flooded by the rising tide rather than sourced from fluvial/rivers. These are commonly sand rich and look similar to fluvial/river channels.

Think that's enough for today

So Rememebr this? - welll the storms have revealed all the tree stumps I was on about -

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 42719.html

Yes I am really rather pleased about this. (one of my "firsts" with a lady girl happened at Daymer bay)

above_the_cows

I was reading about them over breakfast and wondered where I'd read about them before in the not so distant past. Now I know. And why is there a Canadian one dollar coin in that picture? Is it for a sense of scale?

No_Ta_Doctor

ddraver wrote:

So Rememebr this? - welll the storms have revealed all the tree stumps I was on about -

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 42719.html

Yes I am really rather pleased about this. (one of my "firsts" with a lady girl happened at Daymer bay)

Daymer Bay had an Asbo placed on it for a while, and most of Polzeath, when it got a bit overpopular for rowdy public school kids. Must have been about ten years ago.

ddraver

10 years ago you say?

Sounds about right! Man all these girls would rock up and we s just be sitting there with our "yeah I surf and I'm from Cornwall" line. Worked lie a charm even for an ugly munter like me!