Riding without paying.

Philip Whiteman

At the weekend I ran the Kidderminster Killer and Clee to Heaven Audax. The event was full, so a handful individuals unable to enter decided to 'tag long'. Fortunately, they were so impressed with the audax, they offered a donation and will return next year as full participants. Whilst tagging along is not to be advocated, it was very rewarding to know that they were pleased with the day and will be back in a proper capacity.

dylanfernley

tagging along--is that slipstreaming, otherwise people riding in a group is just that--nothing that should be discouraged surely....

hipshot

Wirral_Paul wrote:

dylanfernley wrote:

wirral paul -- i shall be over new brighton way soon, can be arranged and see if you are this avenging moralist :roll:

Fine by me - just say where and when. Hoylake is easy to find

GRRR man fight man over banana at feedstop GRRR

And i thought cycling was just for European sophisticates like myself.

Mikey23

Evolution is amazing

markhewitt1978

It was notable on the Great North Bike Ride at the weekend, that there was no registration when arriving at Seahouses, nobody checking numbers etc, and nobody checking my number at the end when I got my jersey and medal when finishing. So it would have been entirely possible to join and ride for free; of course I didn't, it's a charity ride after all.

BrandonA

markhewitt1978 wrote:

It was notable on the Great North Bike Ride at the weekend, that there was no registration when arriving at Seahouses, nobody checking numbers etc, and nobody checking my number at the end when I got my jersey and medal when finishing. So it would have been entirely possible to join and ride for free; of course I didn't, it's a charity ride after all.

Out of curiousity what percentage of the entrance fee went to charity? You may have been better off riding for free and then making a private donation as the charity would have benefitted more.

I completed a sportive at the weekend, I paid, none of the money went to charity. The signage around the course was poor, there were zero marshals around the course, even on the bit where their website said the descent was dangerous and they would marshal it to reduce the risk. As I only did 100km there was no need to use their stops and I got single free gel at the start. I enjoyed the ride but it definitely was not worth £18 and I think companies are jumping on the sportive bandwagon and not offering value for money.

markhewitt1978

BrandonA wrote:

Out of curiousity what percentage of the entrance fee went to charity? You may have been better off riding for free and then making a private donation as the charity would have benefitted more.

I believe none, as they said it's for the organisation of the event only. And the cycling top you get at the end, which I will never wear.

I completed a sportive at the weekend, I paid, none of the money went to charity. The signage around the course was poor, there were zero marshals around the course, even on the bit where their website said the descent was dangerous and they would marshal it to reduce the risk. As I only did 100km there was no need to use their stops and I got single free gel at the start. I enjoyed the ride but it definitely was not worth £18 and I think companies are jumping on the sportive bandwagon and not offering value for money.

That's disappointing. I've done a few Evans and Wiggle sportives, and they have been excellently signed and marshalled.

mrfpb

I've ridden three events for charity, but not a charity associated with any event. I queried with one event organiser how my charity could set up a sponsored ride with them and the cost was £5-£10 k, way beyond the charities means. So when you look at how much you're required to raise for a charity eg for RLS100, you realise the charity is not getting much on the deal. Lots of comments around the forum about charities putting up their fundraising targets for next year.

Personally, I think riding an event that I haven't paid for would be a hassle. I'd rather go my own way. I choose organised events to give some extra legitimacy to my fundraising. I am in the ballot for RLS100 next year though - the closed roads make it a different beast altogether.

markhewitt1978

What about not riding the route? Durham Big Ride this weekend I'm planning on riding the first half of it, which will be on (mostly) closed roads, but I'm not doing the second half which is on gravel path but riding my own ride on the roads, adding extra distance and climbing. And then meeting up with the event proper at the end, and collecting my t-shirt. I have paid

mrfpb

markhewitt1978 wrote:

That's disappointing. I've done a few Evans and Wiggle sportives, and they have been excellently signed and marshalled

Evans and Wiggle do sportives as a small element of a much larger business, they have a brand to defend, so expect customer service to be a big consideration. Also any big charity, eg BHF will want to defend it's reputation, so expect them to be associated with more reliable event organisers. It's the small providers that you need to watch out for, and TBF even if they are honest and led by enthusiasts, it's becoming a competitive marketplace where the big organisers will win on economy of scale.

As to t-shirts, I love my Moonriders tabard!

markhewitt1978

mrfpb wrote:

Evans and Wiggle do sportives as a small element of a much larger business, they have a brand to defend, so expect customer service to be a big consideration.

Indeed I do wonder if the likes if Evans and Wiggle (through UK Cycling Events) actually make much, if any, money on their sportives, or if they see them as part of their marketing strategy.

pipipi

If anyone else is thinking of doing an AMR one then please do!

I have completed the AMR Castle 100 in Kent and there was lots of energy gels, bananas and jelly beans and flapjacks at the feed stops. The lunch stop also had proper sit down food like pasta with vegetables and rice with salad etc.

This year, although having paid, I was unable to participate so I contacted the organisers a week before. They wanted to know if I wanted a refund or just to defer entry to the next year. I decided to make a charity contribution there and then.

So £40 is expensive but you won't feel short-changed. I imagine all the other rides are just as well organised.

markhewitt1978

Just looking at the Etap Pennines and the road closures http://www.etapepennines.co.uk/images/P ... osures.pdf

I still might do the event proper but I was wondering what the road closures are like on the day?

Because there are several roads on the North East of that map that I would normally ride as part of a normal Sunday ride out. Would I be permitted to use these roads on my bike even if I'm not registered on the event, or are they closed to *all* traffic not just motor traffic?

DaveMoss

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Just looking at the Etap Pennines and the road closures http://www.etapepennines.co.uk/images/P ... osures.pdf

I still might do the event proper but I was wondering what the road closures are like on the day?

Because there are several roads on the North East of that map that I would normally ride as part of a normal Sunday ride out. Would I be permitted to use these roads on my bike even if I'm not registered on the event, or are they closed to *all* traffic not just motor traffic?

I expect that the Traffic Regulation Order that closes the road will close it to all vehicles, including cycles that are not part of the event. In that case, technically, you could be prosecuted if you ride on the route when it is closed unless you are an official entrant. In practice, who knows? Give it a try and if you end up in jail i promise to write.

Mikey23

Nah you won't, you'll soon forget ....

issacforce

I did etape pennines lst year, and saw plenty of mountain bikers on the course going the other way on certain parts of course , and nothing come of it

sleavesley

I am yet to get arrested for riding a short distance of the Etape Cymru today (around 6 miles), I got up early to do my normal ride realising that it crossed some of the etape route. Anyway they started earlier than I thought and I ended up in amongst it. No one bothered me bar one participant staring at me (he may have just liked my lycra?), it looked like a good event with good road closures and marshalling. Couldn't comment on the food stations.
I would probably pay to do it with a group of friends in the future as it's on my doorstep (£55 though), but I ride the roads it uses for free most weekends.
Anyway I cut my normal ride short substanially as a result of this and the fact I had/have a load of work that needs to be done, as I would of linked up with it again.

deanstacey

Hi.
This is Dean, I'm the event manager for Evans Ride It series. I've been reading this thread with interest and would like to respond to some of the comments, this might be a long read :-)

Firstly let me say that, as one poster said, our events are part of the Evans ethos of getting people out on their bikes. As a series we actually make a loss over the year putting them on, but the payback is obvioulsy that if you come to our event and enjoy yourself you'll hopefully come to our stores and shop with us. This is how we keep our entry fee low. If we had to make money then we would need to be charging £25 or over. Which is why Wiggle charge around this level of entry - they are run buy UK cycling Events who are a commercial company.

Written words can sometimes be misinterpreted, this is not written in anger. I have just tried to explain reasons and give answers to points bought up. Also, I do not speak for any other events organisers.


So, onto the comments.

"Why should I pay to ride on public roads?"
You are not paying to ride on the road. You are paying for someone to organise an event. Behind every event day there is a heap of organising, hiring of event centres, paying staff, planning routes, making signs, accepting deliveries, transporting everything there, setting up entry systems etc. That is what you are paying for.

Think of it this way. A bus uses the public road. You are completely entitled to ride the bus route but would you expect to ride the bus for free? The bus company has paid the driver, invested in a bus, put diesel in it, planned the routes, so why would you think it's ok to sit with all the paying customers for free?

I'll just turn up and ride.
Nothing we can do to stop you, they are public roads. What I really object to though is coming to the event centre, parking your car, using the loos, eating from the drink stations and then trying to lie to me when I approach you after you have dodged the finish tent. We paid for all of the facilites for the customers who paid for us to organise the event, if you really want to ride at the same time as 500 other riders and follow a route I have paid to mark out, then have the courtesy to park somewhere else, bring your own food and please don't pretend that you have paid at the end.

Refunds
We don't give refunds. The reason for this is that we have done all the work, bought all the goods, organised all the staff, paid for the event centre etc. If you decide not to come along why should an organiser refund you for costs they are unable to cover? If you didn't turn up for a plane flight would you ask BA for a refund? If the event is sold out this is especially relevant as the organiser could have givent the paying palce to someone who couldn't get in. If WE cancel an event, we refund everyones entry - although not all organisers do this.

Food at drink stations
We don't account for people dropping out, we buy to cover everyone as this is always a possibility and I don't want there to be anyone without food ( I have event bought the entire section of cake at a Co-op when it looked like we were getting low) So helping yourselves to drink sation food might actually be depriving a paying customer of food. If there is any perishable food left over or any that won't make it to the next event date wise, it is all given to our very apprieciative head office staff. We waste very little.

Charity rides/fees
I'd say, if you are riding an event soley because it's a charity event, then check to see how much of your entry fee is going to charity. Don't forget that the organisers have to cover their costs and make a bit of money ( they do have to make a living!!) This will give you a better feel of where your money is going. We don't advertise ourselves as a charity event, but we do give a small donation to Evan's chosen charity, Special Olympics, from every entry.

Using GPX files.
We don't publish these publicly before the event, they are sent to pre-registerd riders a couple of days before the event after we have checked the routes. I made this descision after more people downloaded the GPX files than actually showed up at the event....

Sold out events
It's sold out so why not just turn up and ride? Well it's sold out for a reason. Ours is usuall parking related so if you turn up you'll be taking a space of a paying customer. If it's because the numbers for the road have maxed out, then the organiser has reached their limit, you adding to the road traffic really won't help and may jeapordise the events future that other people have paid to enjoy.

Organisers nick routes.
I plan my own. I do know of one new organisers route that is nearly a carbon copy of one I designed though, so it does go on.

It's only a few/hardly crime of the century.
It's also a principle. And if it becomes acceptable to do then why would organisers put on events for free? All those people who like doing the events would lose out.

So why pay?
Well some advantages are:-
Support - we will come and get you if you get into trouble or try and get you going. In the past I have driven 20miles to a couple who didn't have any way of repairing a puncture, we have mended spokes in wheels, loaned out saddles. I have even loaned out my new bike to a customer who we couldn't get going and on another occasion, my shoes.

A marked route - So that you don't need to map read or try and find your route, you can just get on with enjoying riding your bike.

Food - drink stations that supply food when you need it so that you don't need to carry it. Yes you can stop at a cafe or take your own, but you have paid for this so why not pay to have it carried for you?

Camaraderie - lots of like-minded people enjoying doing the same thing as you. It might get quiet on the longer sections but lots of people comment on how everyone was cheerfull and encouraging when they were struggling.

Well that's my marathon typing session over. Hope it gives an insight into running an event!
Cheers
Dean

Rodrego Hernandez

Fair play Dean.

Explains it nicely from an organisers point of view.

In my opinion those that turn up and ride the pre-planned routes etc are the same as drivers that force us off the roads because they see that they pay road tax and are entitled to do so.

simonhead

Good response Dean.

markhewitt1978

deanstacey wrote:

Hi.
This is Dean, I'm the event manager for Evans Ride It series. I've been reading this thread with interest and would like to respond to some of the comments, this might be a long read :-)

Congratulations of your events. I've only ridden two of them this year - Leeds and Langholm, but both were well organised and signposted. You should do more in the North of England, they are all down south (from my point of view ).

Firstly let me say that, as one poster said, our events are part of the Evans ethos of getting people out on their bikes. As a series we actually make a loss over the year putting them on,

I suspected that would be the case, or that you would only just break even. Especially since you have to pay your staff to attend the events.

but the payback is obvioulsy that if you come to our event and enjoy yourself you'll hopefully come to our stores and shop with us.

And I do on a regular basis, my friends got me onto your store first of all and then into the sportives.

I'll just turn up and ride.
Nothing we can do to stop you, they are public roads. What I really object to though is coming to the event centre, parking your car, using the loos, eating from the drink stations and then trying to lie to me when I approach you after you have dodged the finish tent. We paid for all of the facilites for the customers who paid for us to organise the event, if you really want to ride at the same time as 500 other riders and follow a route I have paid to mark out, then have the courtesy to park somewhere else, bring your own food and please don't pretend that you have paid at the end.

Wiggle give out small laminated numbers to put on your bike, so it's then obvious if you're part of the event or not. I was surprised Evans don't have anything like that. I realise there is a cost involved of course.

Food at drink stations
We don't account for people dropping out, we buy to cover everyone as this is always a possibility and I don't want there to be anyone without food ( I have event bought the entire section of cake at a Co-op when it looked like we were getting low) So helping yourselves to drink sation food might actually be depriving a paying customer of food. If there is any perishable food left over or any that won't make it to the next event date wise, it is all given to our very apprieciative head office staff. We waste very little.

Food / drink is always appreciated and what makes the difference between a sportive and just going for a ride on your own. UKCyclingEvents do shade you slightly on the quality of the food, or maybe just in the presentation thereof

So why pay?
Well some advantages are:-
Support - we will come and get you if you get into trouble or try and get you going. In the past I have driven 20miles to a couple who didn't have any way of repairing a puncture, we have mended spokes in wheels, loaned out saddles. I have even loaned out my new bike to a customer who we couldn't get going and on another occasion, my shoes.

A marked route - So that you don't need to map read or try and find your route, you can just get on with enjoying riding your bike.

Camaraderie - lots of like-minded people enjoying doing the same thing as you. It might get quiet on the longer sections but lots of people comment on how everyone was cheerfull and encouraging when they were struggling.

That and you can cover quite a bit longer distance by sitting in someones wheel half the time .

Thanks again for your input - PS. When are your 2013 events going to be announced?

PPS. A friend of mine bought a road bike (From Evans) just before the Leeds Sportive in February 2013 and did the 30 miles route. Inspired by this he singed up for the King of the Pennines 100 mile route. This was last weekend, and he obviously failed to train properly as he struggled around and tried to get into the broom waggon twice, but they were full up. Eventually got back to the event centre dead last and you all had to wait for him. I did chuckle

mrfpb

Dean

Thanks for taking the time to post. Having ridden a few organised events, I have to say the reassurance of the broom wagon/support team is the biggest plus point for me. Not had to use it yet, but on my L2B nightride this year, I saw a lot of people using technical and medical support. It's. Good to know it's there when you need it.

I think some people like to be part of an event while others just like to ride for the sake of riding. I think there is a fair point to be made that some routes are so popular (Surrey Hills) that you wouldn't get to ride them in the summer if you were avoiding organised events.

deanstacey

Hi Guys.

Thanks for the responses.

Mark.
About 15 new events next year so we will hopefully get to somewhere near you!

Numbers - As sportives are not races I do everything I can to not make them look like one. Putting numbers on bikes gives this impression ( They are supplied by Sportivephoto to make it easy to identify yourselves in photos ( the only event we do this on is KotDowns as there are so many of you )) I always refer to an incident whilst riding with a friend who didn't remove her MM rider number. We were randomly riding off road a few weeks later, some approaching walkers saw her coming and one said to the other, move out of the way, she's racing. If you have a rider number the perception of the public is that you are in a race. It's also harder to argue with insurers that you aren't running a race if you privide everyone with a "rider/race number"

Food - I know what you mean about Wiggle food, the sandwiches and presentation is good. Unfortunatley we can't afford this level - I honestly don't know how they make and keep the sandwhiches fresh for the event day. They have recently avertised for a warehouse person so that might give you an idea of their set up and where some of the extra £10 - £13 entry fee goes.

I hope your friend is now looking back on KotPs and realising we did him a favour by having a full wagon ( or 3!!) It's a stunning ride and a great challenge.

Cheers and happy riding
Dean

markhewitt1978

deanstacey wrote:

Mark.
About 15 new events next year so we will hopefully get to somewhere near you!

Really? Wow! That's a massive increase. I assume from that you are going to be doing one event per week instead of one every 2 weeks as you are doing now?

I'm not complaining too much, Leeds and Langholm were good, and it's good to get out and ride somewhere you wouldn't normally go. Although I do find it helps motivate my riding quite a lot, during the summer it's fine, I'm out riding anyway, but having the Leeds event in February meant I got out and did some training when I would otherwise not have bothered due to the cold.

Numbers - As sportives are not races I do everything I can to not make them look like one. Putting numbers on bikes gives this impression ( They are supplied by Sportivephoto to make it easy to identify yourselves in photos ( the only event we do this on is KotDowns as there are so many of you )) I always refer to an incident whilst riding with a friend who didn't remove her MM rider number. We were randomly riding off road a few weeks later, some approaching walkers saw her coming and one said to the other, move out of the way, she's racing. If you have a rider number the perception of the public is that you are in a race. It's also harder to argue with insurers that you aren't running a race if you privide everyone with a "rider/race number"

I hadn't considered it that way and it makes a lot of sense.

Food - I know what you mean about Wiggle food, the sandwiches and presentation is good. Unfortunatley we can't afford this level - I honestly don't know how they make and keep the sandwhiches fresh for the event day. They have recently avertised for a warehouse person so that might give you an idea of their set up and where some of the extra £10 - £13 entry fee goes.

It really was for me just the presentation, as the food provided, gels, bananas, jelly babies etc are pretty much the same. As long as I can fill my water bottle and get a few sweets and a bit of flapjack then it's all good. I'm not looking for a buffet lunch after all.

I hope your friend is now looking back on KotPs and realising we did him a favour by having a full wagon ( or 3!!) It's a stunning ride and a great challenge.

Indeed I think I might do it next year; only reason I didn't was that it clashed with "The Beast" - Durham Big Ride; which is a must do for anyone living near Durham.

apreading

Dean - thanks for posting

I have done maybe 7/8 of your events this year and they have all been the best Sportives I have done. Thank you and well done - you organise them perfectly.

Did a Wiggle Sportive which was more expensive and you got less freebies (not a problem but noted in your favour). More than that though, it felt much less personal and there were ALOT more riders on the roads who were also more serious - so less cameraderie from riders and staff alike. Route marking was fractionally better than yours (paint on road for some turns and bad potholes etc) but not significant enough to be of concern. It made me realise just how much and what I like about yours.

Did a BHF ride from London to Windsor a couple of years ago, my first of this type of thing. Was much more expensive, no free food (and only water to drink free) at stops. Felt like we were being ripped off to be honest - my impression was that they farm their events out to a commercial company who milk it for all they can so the charity doesnt even benefit from the poor value for money offered.

Did an Action Medical Research ride (my first 100mile ride) a few weeks ago and this was really well run - felt more like one of yours than anything I have done before. Staff on the feed stations were mainly scout groups, so obviously volunteers and really friendly. The one thing they did have that nobody else seems to do is hot drinks at the feed stops - this made such a difference.

Refused to ride along without paying for a Sportive (not one of yours) in the Chilterns when someone I know suggested it - I think he did this, with someone who had registered so had all the course notes etc but I didnt want to know and am not very impressed by his attitude. Would certainly say something if he tried to do it on an Evans event with me - especially now I read your post here.

Keep up the great work - looking forward to more in 2014!!!

One thing I did at the beginning of the year was to sign up to all the Rideits I wanted to do, so that family stuff could be planned around them with plenty of notice. At your price it did not matter than I didnt make one of them in the end, it wasnt the end of the world. This is the main reason why I did so many because rather than waiting to book nearer the time and finding the dates didnt work etc, they were the FIRST things on the calendar this year! Intend doing the same again next year... See you there.

markhewitt1978

apreading wrote:

One thing I did at the beginning of the year was to sign up to all the Rideits I wanted to do, so that family stuff could be planned around them with plenty of notice. At your price it did not matter than I didnt make one of them in the end, it wasnt the end of the world. This is the main reason why I did so many because rather than waiting to book nearer the time and finding the dates didnt work etc, they were the FIRST things on the calendar this year! Intend doing the same again next year... See you there.

Exactly what I intend on doing this year -- as soon as the calendar is announced immediately booking all the ones I want to do; then as you say you can plan the year around it and as they money is long gone there's no disincentive to doing the ride. Thankfully -- again unlike Wiggle, Evans prices their rides the same for all distances, so there's no trouble doing a different route if you want.

I hope Evans get their 2014 list out quickly

RallyBiker

I'm planning on doing 3 or 4 of the Wiggle events as well as the Etape Caledonia and Mercia again in 2014, and will also bang all the entries in as soon as the calender comes out. It's an added incentive for winter training!!

Tom Butcher

deanstacey wrote:

Hi.
This is
We don't publish these publicly before the event, they are sent to pre-registerd riders a couple of days before the event after we have checked the routes. I made this descision after more people downloaded the GPX files than actually showed up at the event....


Cheers
Dean

Agree with your sentiments Dean but just where the routes are concerned, I've downloaded a few routes from local sportives just out of interest really, not to ride them on the same day as the sportive.

markhewitt1978

The one thing I don't like about Evans is the lack of maps before the event. Just the address of the event centre. I like to have some idea where I'm riding, which climbs etc. doesn't have to be a GPX just a map.

apreading

Evans have addressed that recently - for the last few months they have example maps from last years ride on the website - with a caveat that it is subject to possible changes nearer the time.