Riding without paying.

markhewitt1978

BrandonA wrote:

I think though that the way some of the organisers make you think you are giving to charity is a joke. I read the small print for on and out of £25 entrance fee only £2 went to charity. It was though advertised as a charity ride. This is misleading.

To be fair most of the 'charity rides' I've seen are keen to stress that the entrance fee only covers the organisational costs, and you're expected to do your own fundraising.

Grill

markhewitt1978 wrote:

I would also say downloading the .gpx and riding the route is poor form too. The organisers have employed people to survey the area and draw up a good cycling route for your enjoyment, then you're taking that hard work and using it yourself without paying. Same as downloading music without paying for it.

Wow. Just wow.

markhewitt1978

Grill wrote:

Wow. Just wow.

Why? The organisers put in work to draw up a route and you're using it without compensating them.

Paul-Posh

I rode the White Horse Challenge route last weekend having downloaded a GPX file that was freely available online. The event itself was a good few months ago now, so I don't see why using these files would be a problem. If they didn't want them to be used they wouldn't make them so easy to access.

Grill

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Grill wrote:

Wow. Just wow.

Why? The organisers put in work to draw up a route and you're using it without compensating them.

You can't be serious. Way more work goes into Audax routes and you can ride those without anyone getting their panties in a bunch.

Take the Dragon Ride. It's not a particularly good route and didn't take a whole lot of time or effort to design. To say that it's intellectual property would be akin to saying you can't quote a film you don't own because the studio and writers aren't getting their cut.

dylanfernley

unbeleivable knicker twisters on dis thread, some people seem to like to take offence at any thing that transgresses their own petty world---- if you happen to ever go to other places where life is a bit more basic, just open your eyes to how people hussle and struggle to get by-..... I suppose thirty odd years of monetary policy is bound to warp some peoples mindset......how sad....

drlodge

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Closed roads are a different thing as presumably the roads are closed for all, including cyclists not involved in the event. If it's just your normal Evans sportive then there's nothing in the world just stopping you turning up and riding the course. Morally I wouldn't have an issue either as it's public roads - however if you stopped at the feed stations and took some food and drink that would be theft.

This ----^

Its one thing riding a Sportive route on the day without regsitering as long as you don't steal - take food or advantage of the facilities on offer. I don't see any difference in riding the route on the day without paying compared to riding the route on a different day without paying - you're just riding on a public road. Part of the benefit of paying in most sportives is that you get a timed ride and your results are listed with everyone elses. If you don't pay then you don't get a timed ride.

Its something else though if the roads are closed like on London-Surrey 100, or there are special facilities setup. Then you're taking advantage of the facilities on offer that cost money to put in place, without paying. And that in my mind is no different to stealing. I personally find it morally offensive that people should try and cycle the London-Surrey 100 route without paying - I paid to enter and don't see why I should fund them too.

markhewitt1978

Lets take it further down the line. Lets say a sportive organiser arranges a route in a popular area. They will likely be told by the police / local authority that they are permitted to have X number of participants, and the organiser sticks to that rigidly. However a load then turn up and ride without paying, the local authority is upset, they don't allow the event the following year.

drlodge

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Lets take it further down the line. Lets say a sportive organiser arranges a route in a popular area. They will likely be told by the police / local authority that they are permitted to have X number of participants, and the organiser sticks to that rigidly. However a load then turn up and ride without paying, the local authority is upset, they don't allow the event the following year.

This could happen without the group's knowledge of the sportive. A group of cyclists, may be a club ride, could be travelling along part of the Sportive course and upset the local authority just by their presence on that part of the course at that time. They have done nothing wrong, as they are entitled to ride those roads.

There is nothing wrong in my book riding on a open public road - it's their right. But taking advantage of facilities that others have paid for is wrong.

awavey

markhewitt1978 wrote:

BrandonA wrote:

I think though that the way some of the organisers make you think you are giving to charity is a joke. I read the small print for on and out of £25 entrance fee only £2 went to charity. It was though advertised as a charity ride. This is misleading.

To be fair most of the 'charity rides' I've seen are keen to stress that the entrance fee only covers the organisational costs, and you're expected to do your own fundraising.

expected ? they positively guilt trip you into it the ones Ive seen, why I dont really bother with them as we say they are public roads, and if they are local to you, you can do them anytime you like, certainly downloaded a few of the gpxs for future use

Ultimately its the is it worth £25 being part of a mass of cyclist event I guess, the tshirt isnt something your going to wear alot (why not cycle tops??) ever again and food doesnt cost £25 to provide per person, so yeah thought I might follow the next one that went near me for a bit, just do a segment as part of my own route on a sunday, never occured to me to bother with the feed stations anyway as I wouldnt be expecting to need it beyond what I could carry, and knowing the area I could always pop over to a cafe/shop if I was desperate.

but yeah if the price keeps going up as it is,and the perceived benefit doesnt in kind, then more and more I think will just drop into these rides as they happen and not pay or register, but you have to ask well why bother given there are thousands of miles of roads and lots of free organised club rides and sky rides across the country

binkybike

drlodge wrote:

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Closed roads are a different thing as presumably the roads are closed for all, including cyclists not involved in the event. If it's just your normal Evans sportive then there's nothing in the world just stopping you turning up and riding the course. Morally I wouldn't have an issue either as it's public roads - however if you stopped at the feed stations and took some food and drink that would be theft.

This ----^

Its one thing riding a Sportive route on the day without regsitering as long as you don't steal - take food or advantage of the facilities on offer. I don't see any difference in riding the route on the day without paying compared to riding the route on a different day without paying - you're just riding on a public road. Part of the benefit of paying in most sportives is that you get a timed ride and your results are listed with everyone elses. If you don't pay then you don't get a timed ride.

Its something else though if the roads are closed like on London-Surrey 100, or there are special facilities setup. Then you're taking advantage of the facilities on offer that cost money to put in place, without paying. And that in my mind is no different to stealing. I personally find it morally offensive that people should try and cycle the London-Surrey 100 route without paying - I paid to enter and don't see why I should fund them too.

Double this^

Riding the route is fine, eating the food is not, anyone who can't see why must just be an unpleasant person

t4tomo

Grill wrote:

markhewitt1978 wrote:

I would also say downloading the .gpx and riding the route is poor form too. The organisers have employed people to survey the area and draw up a good cycling route for your enjoyment, then you're taking that hard work and using it yourself without paying. Same as downloading music without paying for it.

Wow. Just wow.

Most sportive organisers just nick the route off someone else don't they? or am i merging threads?

I have on occasions happened into the middle of a sportive or charity ride whilst out on a ride on my own. it confuses the hell out of the marshalls as you peel off the opposite way to what they are directing you or merrily sail past the food stop withoput stopping.

alanp23

I am currently helping organise a sportive that is taking place towards the end of September. We were discussing this particualar subject at our meeting earlier this week and there was some incredulity when I raised the issue over making sure that we were checking riders at the feedstops. Here's my opinion.

Our sportive is being run by a local cycling organisation where we are all putting our time and effort in for free. We are raising money for charity and we are hoping to build an event that grows over the years. We are putting our own reputation into it and we want it to raise loads of money, raise our own profile and give the riders a fabulous day out. All for £20.

We are working directly with our charity, a number of major local sponsors and we have full co-operation of the local police and the local councils as well as having the usual safety features. We have done this all in our own time.

I've created what I think is a fabulous route. We have a closed start and a couple of feedstations en-route.

I dont care if anyone downloads my route and rides it any time they like. I dont even care if you ride it the same day as the ride. I dont even care if you join us all going round. I'd be disappointed that you didnt want to donate the £20 but hey, I know how life works.

But if anyone who hasnt paid, tries to take food at the foodstops (Food that people have given us for free) or tries to take a goodie bag at the end, then that is theft, plain and simple.

And to be honest, I dont think it really matters who is putting it on and what they charge or what they do with the money, I think it is the same principle.

http://www.teamcysticfibrosis.co.uk

markhewitt1978

Or perhaps you need to chill out and realise that of the (presumably) hundreds of riders who will be stopping at your feed stations, how many of them will be taking food without paying? Probably none but I'm guessing at the most 2 or 3. It's not even worth considering.

drlodge

alanp23 wrote:

I am currently helping organise a sportive that is taking place towards the end of September. We were discussing this particualar subject at our meeting earlier this week and there was some incredulity when I raised the issue over making sure that we were checking riders at the feedstops. Here's my opinion.

Our sportive is being run by a local cycling organisation where we are all putting our time and effort in for free. We are raising money for charity and we are hoping to build an event that grows over the years. We are putting our own reputation into it and we want it to raise loads of money, raise our own profile and give the riders a fabulous day out. All for £20.

We are working directly with our charity, a number of major local sponsors and we have full co-operation of the local police and the local councils as well as having the usual safety features. We have done this all in our own time.

I've created what I think is a fabulous route. We have a closed start and a couple of feedstations en-route.

I dont care if anyone downloads my route and rides it any time they like. I dont even care if you ride it the same day as the ride. I dont even care if you join us all going round. I'd be disappointed that you didnt want to donate the £20 but hey, I know how life works.

But if anyone who hasnt paid, tries to take food at the foodstops (Food that people have given us for free) or tries to take a goodie bag at the end, then that is theft, plain and simple.

And to be honest, I dont think it really matters who is putting it on and what they charge or what they do with the money, I think it is the same principle.

http://www.teamcysticfibrosis.co.uk

Well said! Here's £20...and I won't even bother turning up to ride ;-)

slam that stem

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Or perhaps you need to chill out and realise that of the (presumably) hundreds of riders who will be stopping at your feed stations, how many of them will be taking food without paying? Probably none but I'm guessing at the most 2 or 3. It's not even worth considering.

Agreed, maybe 3, maybe 10 people will take a slice of cake. Who cares? If you're in it for charity, a true biz-dev minded person focusses on attracting as many paying customers as possible (top line) as opposed to a bit of wastage/spoilage of what's already a sunk cost. From my experience, the hardest part with a first year event is to properly estimate demand for food. You can blow a lot of hard-won charity ££ by over-buying bananas, cake, etc.

If you do see non-paying riders, don't alientate them, embrace them and encourage them to make a donation when they get home.

Good luck with it!

jimmythecuckoo

Its a smaller thing than taking food for sure, but I dislike it when people dont pay, ride the course and the nick the photos to put on facebook with the watermark on them...

phreak

On the flipside, how many sportives provide a refund if you can't do the ride? One suspects that there are many more people that have paid but don't ride than people that ride but don't pay.

chipperleenie

I can see this from both sides as I organise a sportive and ride in them and have ridden part of some without paying.

If they are on open roads there is absolutely nothing an organiser can do or will even bother to do if you ride around the route. They are public roads and everyone is free to use them. Obviously it is not allowed on the closed road ones as the roads are closed to anyone who has not paid to enter.

In the event I have organised for the last 3 years there has no doubt always been a few jumping in for some or the whole of the route, one year a rider even lined up in the start line and when asked where his number was he just replied "I haven't entered I'm just riding it" and this was for an event where we only charge £12!

What I do agree with is that if anyone jumps in then they should not be using the feedstation or any of the facilities as that is what the riders who have entered have paid for.

As for events that give money back for riders who don't turn up, this is never going to happen as you cannot plan an event and spend the money on the feed etc if you don't know how much money you have to play with! What I have done for our event though is for people who contact me in the few days leading up to the event to say they are injured I let them enter the following year for free.

I think the price that a lot of the sportives are charging is too high for what it costs to promote and that is why I would ride part of a local one if some team mates were riding. Why pay £25 to ride on the roads you train on all year? This is also the reason I began promoting one! If all sportives were thought to be value for money by all riders then there would never be an issue of people jumping in for free would there?

dylanfernley

phreak wrote:

On the flipside, how many sportives provide a refund if you can't do the ride? One suspects that there are many more people that have paid but don't ride than people that ride but don't pay.

indeed, its a strange ol business, not long ago cycling was pretty stress free, now the world of business wants a slice of the action, along with all the petty bourgeois ideological baggage that many bring....

Mikey23

Had to miss three in a row while my broken bits mend and have contacted the organisers each time with not a sniff of a refund

phreak

Did they send you some flapjacks in a doggie bag?

verylonglegs

Mikey23 wrote:

Had to miss three in a row while my broken bits mend and have contacted the organisers each time with not a sniff of a refund

So the pertinent question is will it change you in the future as to how far in advance you book or even if at all?

issacforce

I wait b4 booking online especially if u can pay on day, i did it for wiggle angel, entry closed 3 days b4 event so i waited to c what the weather wud be like, and then prebooked cos it was fine, i,d rather pay a couple oof quid extra on the day than waste all the money if notvable to do ride for woteva reason. Ive turned up at sportives b4 which r fully booked,and asked if i can do them, when they say no ,imjust say oh wellillride the course anyway for free, (always have my own food and drink,) its amazing how they change their mind once they know u gonna do the course anyway.

Southgate

For anyone who has lost their job or is on the minimum wage, twenty five quid is a LOT of money to ride on the public highway so I can understand why they wouldn't pay, especially if the organisers aren't offering a reduced entry. It's a different thing if riders are taking food etc, because that's a direct monetary loss, but still, it's hardly the crime of the century. I do pay and I generally don't stop at feed stations so in a way people like me are subsidising the organisers, which evens things up a bit.

On the occasions when I choose to ride a sportive as a social ride and stop at feed stations, I sometimes find that I have to pay for the food and drink, which I think is taking the pee and taking our custom for granted. On one recent sportive I received nothing but a bottle of water and a medal at the end. No timing chip, no food, just a piece of paper with a number pinned to my back. No tap water was available in the park and any further drinks and food had to be purchased from private stalls. I know it's a charity event but I do think that it's part of the job of the charity to look after the riders and be good hosts. Instead of leaving with warm and fuzzy feelings towards the charity (one of the big sportive ones), I felt a bit let down and mildly resentful that I'd parted with twenty five quid.

Last Sunday a friend persuaded me to ride the AMR Surrey 100. The cost was an astronomical £50 (discounted to £40 with an online voucher - half the cost of the entry is a compulsory donation to the charity), so we decided that at that price, we would stop at all stations and just have a fun day out. For my forty quid, this is what I got:

At the start: Energy drinks and four gels. A timing chip.
At each feed station: Energy drinks, tea, coffee, hot chocolate, cakes, nuts, fruit and other nice stuff.
At lunch stop: A superb buffet with a huge selection of delicious real food, snacks, bars, and various beverages.
At the finish: More food and drink, including cans of various soft drinks, crisps, flapjack etc. The chief organiser came over and personally apologised for the "poor" selection of food left, as we were one of the last to finish.

We also received a High5 promo pack of gels etc, and we just missed out on receiving a free massage because of our late finish. The signposting was excellent, the photos first class, and the staff super-friendly and helpful.

Warm and fuzzy feelings prevailed throughout, and I went home feeling that the organisers really cared about me (the customer), and had pulled out all the stops to make it a memorable day. I emailed the organisers congratulating them on putting on a great event that despite being the most expensive non-closed roads sportive I have ever done, actually represented the best value for money.

issacforce

Hi southgate
I was hum n haring about doing the amr lake distict ride in sept, as £40 is a lot of money to me. But u hav changed my mind after ur glaring report on it, and will b booking in the next few days, thanx

Grill

Southgate wrote:

At the start: Energy drinks and four gels. A timing chip.
At each feed station: Energy drinks, tea, coffee, hot chocolate, cakes, nuts, fruit and other nice stuff.
At lunch stop: A superb buffet with a huge selection of delicious real food, snacks, bars, and various beverages.
At the finish: More food and drink, including cans of various soft drinks, crisps, flapjack etc. The chief organiser came over and personally apologised for the "poor" selection of food left, as we were one of the last to finish.

I'm not surprised you were one of the last to finish as you spent the whole time stuffing your face. Must be pretty hard to ride at a decent pace with that much food weighing you down. :P

Der Kaiser

One thing you also have to consider is the Broom Wagon. If you are unfortunate enough to have a major mechanical that means you can't finish then in the vast majority of Sportive you can get picked up and returned to the finish. It's a service you don't consider until you need it.

drlodge

If you can't afford the entry fee for a Sportive, I have no issue with people "tagging along" and doing the route. Just don't take advantage of the food and services offered.

GiantMike

Even if you can afford it, the whole route is being run on roads paid out of general taxation. Sportives are generally a rip off and provide a lot of things you don't want/need. When I ride 100 miles on my own I don't feel the need to comsume my own bodyweight in gels and energy bars, I don't feel that I deserve a medal and I don't feel I should get a special t-shirt printed up. I can time myself and plan the route beforehand, so other than an 'atmosphere' (which usually runs out after 20 miles when the field thins out), I don't think I actually get anything out of them.

Would I ride one without paying? I may incorporate a section of one into a normal ride, but that's because I tend to ride the same good roads that the Sportive organisers pick too.