'98 retro testing...

jimmythecuckoo

Thanks mate... you need to keep me honest and on this wave of positivity until the first dodgy Southern European fails a test on the opening rest day

markwb79

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

Thanks mate... you need to keep me honest and on this wave of positivity until the first dodgy Southern European fails a test on the opening rest day

Or Luxemburgian

frenchfighter

"Almost every winner of the Tour de France was probably using this substance," Moncoutié told Euronews of the 1990s. "Maybe some cyclists in the peloton were clean, more so in recent years, but I think the majority of them were cheating."
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/moncout ... -using-epo

rick_chasey

So basically cycling has got to the point where they have to go back 15 years to get their annual pre-tour doping scandal.

*sighs*

TheBigBean

Rick Chasey wrote:

So basically cycling has got to the point where they have to go back 15 years to get their annual pre-tour doping scandal.

*sighs*

Sure, but a lot of those names currently work in cycling and deny ever doping. Anything that brings down the Omerta of old is a good thing in my opinion as it reassures the current generation that they will be caught one day. In fact, I'd like mandatory retests done at the end of the eight year limit, but that's another subject.

ddraver

Rick Chasey wrote:

So basically cycling has got to the point where they have to go back 15 years to get their annual pre-tour doping scandal.

*sighs*

Nice point! (Again?! What is happening to you Rick?!)

timoid.

Reading his words, he's not exactly claiming the current peloton is riding clean:

The former Cofidis rider said that despite previous eras that have been clouded by doping controversies, the increased efforts in anti-doping meant that it could not be said that "all cyclists are cheating" and that the number of riders using illegal substances has decreased.

"In my opinion, it is possible to take part in the Tour de France without cheating just as I did and I don't think I am the only one. However to actually win the competition is a different matter. Some cyclists have special skills and we are all well trained but one rider usually stands out. We would all like him to be clean."

I don't understand why he's not more p1ssed. He's been robbed of high placings, stage wins and who knows overall victories by a succession of cheats, many of whom are still in the peloton and many of whom probably still dope.

Richmond Racer

Timoid. wrote:

Reading his words, he's not exactly claiming the current peloton is riding clean:

The former Cofidis rider said that despite previous eras that have been clouded by doping controversies, the increased efforts in anti-doping meant that it could not be said that "all cyclists are cheating" and that the number of riders using illegal substances has decreased.

"In my opinion, it is possible to take part in the Tour de France without cheating just as I did and I don't think I am the only one. However to actually win the competition is a different matter. Some cyclists have special skills and we are all well trained but one rider usually stands out. We would all like him to be clean."

I don't understand why he's not more p1ssed. He's been robbed of high placings, stage wins and who knows overall victories by a succession of cheats, many of whom are still in the peloton and many of whom probably still dope.

Not many left who were riding in the same peloton as him in 99

timoid.

Richmond Racer wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

Reading his words, he's not exactly claiming the current peloton is riding clean:

The former Cofidis rider said that despite previous eras that have been clouded by doping controversies, the increased efforts in anti-doping meant that it could not be said that "all cyclists are cheating" and that the number of riders using illegal substances has decreased.

"In my opinion, it is possible to take part in the Tour de France without cheating just as I did and I don't think I am the only one. However to actually win the competition is a different matter. Some cyclists have special skills and we are all well trained but one rider usually stands out. We would all like him to be clean."

I don't understand why he's not more p1ssed. He's been robbed of high placings, stage wins and who knows overall victories by a succession of cheats, many of whom are still in the peloton and many of whom probably still dope.

Not many left who were riding in the same peloton as him in 99

I'm talking about people in the Naughties. Doping didn't stop in 99.

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

So basically cycling has got to the point where they have to go back 15 years to get their annual pre-tour doping scandal.

*sighs*

Personally, I find that quite encouraging.

Seven years ago the pre-Tour scandal was favourite(s) being thrown out of the Tour for doping with an arrested doctor. Now it's the Tour favourite getting taken off a website for not answering his e-mails. That's progress

inkyfingers

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

So basically cycling has got to the point where they have to go back 15 years to get their annual pre-tour doping scandal.

*sighs*

Personally, I find that quite encouraging.

Seven years ago the pre-Tour scandal was favourite(s) being thrown out of the Tour for doping with an arrested doctor. Now it's the Tour favourite getting taken off a website for not answering his e-mails. That's progress

The Tour stuff is just getting started though Rich, this could be just a prologue.

TheBigBean

Timoid. wrote:

I don't understand why he's not more p1ssed. He's been robbed of high placings, stage wins and who knows overall victories by a succession of cheats, many of whom are still in the peloton and many of whom probably still dope.

Because he's not sure that he would have won if everyone was clean. Instead he is famous for supposedly having ridden clean - something that will increasingly pay well. His prize and his achievement is a moral one - it is a competition he feels he has won.

RichN95.

TheBigBean wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

I don't understand why he's not more p1ssed. He's been robbed of high placings, stage wins and who knows overall victories by a succession of cheats, many of whom are still in the peloton and many of whom probably still dope.

Because he's not sure that he would have won if everyone was clean. Instead he is famous for supposedly having ridden clean - something that will increasingly pay well. His prize and his achievement is a moral one - it is a competition he feels he has won.

Moncoutie's work ethic and training regime were legendary. As Matt Rendell once described it - "Pottering around a Parisian park twice a week". He made Freire look like a workaholic.

Richmond Racer

Timoid. wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

Reading his words, he's not exactly claiming the current peloton is riding clean:

The former Cofidis rider said that despite previous eras that have been clouded by doping controversies, the increased efforts in anti-doping meant that it could not be said that "all cyclists are cheating" and that the number of riders using illegal substances has decreased.

"In my opinion, it is possible to take part in the Tour de France without cheating just as I did and I don't think I am the only one. However to actually win the competition is a different matter. Some cyclists have special skills and we are all well trained but one rider usually stands out. We would all like him to be clean."

I don't understand why he's not more p1ssed. He's been robbed of high placings, stage wins and who knows overall victories by a succession of cheats, many of whom are still in the peloton and many of whom probably still dope.

Not many left who were riding in the same peloton as him in 99

I'm talking about people in the Naughties. Doping didn't stop in 99.

I am an idiot. I'd just been reading Basson's latest, and was thinking Bassons not Moncoutie when I replied to your post. Got my hard-done-by riders mixed up there. :oops:

Richmond Racer

Timoid. wrote:

Is anyone surprised?

Would love a full list of riders. Some of them are still knocking about. Is Der Jensie sweating?

Timoid, here's the list of runners and riders from the 98 Tour:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_te ... _de_France

Graculus

I have just finished reading Philippe Gaumont's book and he says that during his seven years at Cofidis (1998ish until 2004 I think) of all the riders that he knew and mixed with there were only 2 who weren't taking doping products - David Moncoutie and Janek Tombak. Based on this he estimates that 95% of riders at that time were doping.

dish_dash

Richmond Racer wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

Is anyone surprised?

Would love a full list of riders. Some of them are still knocking about. Is Der Jensie sweating?

Timoid, here's the list of runners and riders from the 98 Tour:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_te ... _de_France

Interesting... most of the big names already confirmed (Pantani, Ulrich, Boogert, Dekker et al) or highly suspicious (Cippolini etc).
But how many of these are in the 5%? Voigt, Boardman, McEwan, Sciandri, Backsted, O'Grady, Tschimil...

tailwindhome

Rick Chasey wrote:

15 years

Wow - Is it that long since the Tour was in Ireland!!!

timoid.

Richmond Racer wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

Is anyone surprised?

Would love a full list of riders. Some of them are still knocking about. Is Der Jensie sweating?

Timoid, here's the list of runners and riders from the 98 Tour:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_te ... _de_France

Ta. Looks like it's just Voigt and Freckle left.

timoid.

dish_dash wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

Is anyone surprised?

Would love a full list of riders. Some of them are still knocking about. Is Der Jensie sweating?

Timoid, here's the list of runners and riders from the 98 Tour:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_te ... _de_France

Interesting... most of the big names already confirmed (Pantani, Ulrich, Boogert, Dekker et al) or highly suspicious (Cippolini etc).
But how many of these are in the 5%? Voigt, Boardman, McEwen, Sciandri, Backsted, O'Grady, Tschimil...

1: Boardman.

joelsim

Graculus wrote:

I have just finished reading Philippe Gaumont's book and he says that during his seven years at Cofidis (1998ish until 2004 I think) of all the riders that he knew and mixed with there were only 2 who weren't taking doping products - David Moncoutie and Janek Tombak. Based on this he estimates that 95% of riders at that time were doping.

That's pretty much the conclusion in every book that I've read

Richmond Racer

I was thinking about this last night. If you were a tested rider during that 98 Tour, and you know you were on the juice at the time...and you're still in cycling as a rider, or a DS or a manager or a commentator*...how the hell do you sleep at night right now?

:shock:


* leaving aside the USADA lot, and others who've already been done

philbar72

Richmond Racer wrote:

I was thinking about this last night. If you were a tested rider during that 98 Tour, and you know you were on the juice at the time...and you're still in cycling as a rider, or a DS or a manager or a commentator*...how the hell do you sleep at night right now?

:shock:


* leaving aside the USADA lot, and others who've already been done

I'm not sure they'd care and would probably fallback to stock answers, to the point of everyone just shrugging their shoulders and saying it was inevitable x was doping.....

of course ethically it's wrong but when the playing field was so warped, well whaddyado?

mididoctors

Timoid. wrote:

Reading his words, he's not exactly claiming the current peloton is riding clean:

snip

I don't understand why he's [moncutie] not more p1ssed. He's been robbed of high placings, stage wins and who knows overall victories by a succession of cheats, many of whom are still in the peloton and many of whom probably still dope.

One does wonder if riders like him (eg mottet) could have been a contender in a epo-less world

I think he must have been resigned to his situation a long time ago.. One must be pretty thick skinned in that regard. Boardman seems to have developed a very mature attitude to it all as well.

I think both of them will reap a different sort of reward in the long run.

It's funny how it has all turned out . what would have happened if Larry hadn't attempted the comeback is my latest counterfactual? the sheer size of the failstrong story may have been the real shove this sport needed?

these retro test stories..how much weight without the preceding apocalypse?

Richmond Racer

philbar72 wrote:

Richmond Racer wrote:

I was thinking about this last night. If you were a tested rider during that 98 Tour, and you know you were on the juice at the time...and you're still in cycling as a rider, or a DS or a manager or a commentator*...how the hell do you sleep at night right now?

:shock:


* leaving aside the USADA lot, and others who've already been done

I'm not sure they'd care and would probably fallback to stock answers, to the point of everyone just shrugging their shoulders and saying it was inevitable x was doping.....

of course ethically it's wrong but when the playing field was so warped, well whaddyado?

Its not the guilt thing - cos I dont think guilt is felt by most of those those who've been done - 'I did what I had to do, xx person made me blah blah'

It's just the potential forthcoming exposure...mind you, if you work for a number of the current pro teams, wont make the slightest bit of difference to your job there (unless you're Dutch and didnt go and confess to the Dutch AD agency, in which case you may be subject to the punative action they'd promised)

Graculus

As far as the world of elite cycling is concerned there are two 'crimes' here. One is doping to enhance performance and the other, way more serious it would seem, is talking about it. Most particularly talking about how absolutely everyone was involved in systematic doping regimes.

I keep banging on about Gaumont but his account of his life in cycling at this time haunts me it is so tragic, especially in view of his recent death at 40. It is called Prisonnier du Dopage, and he really was. He admits that he is totally responsible for his own wrongdoing, no-one lied to him about what they were giving him, but the fact remained that even though no-one was ever forced to take stuff, if you didn't you simply couldn't keep up. Of course if you tried to speak out against it, like Bassons, you were hounded out.

I think cycling is in a far better place now, although I'm under no illusions that it is perfect. And I really don't know what is the best thing to do about these former dopers, many of whom are still at the heart of cycling today. Forget and move on, some sort of Truth and Reconciliation? Whatever would serve the future of cycling best, but I don't think anyone can agree what that is, and what is more the people with the power to decide are those whose jobs will be first on the line.

Perhaps once they have gone something can be done to purge the whole thing, lay it to rest so that stories like this stop leaking out years after the event.

bockers

The whole doping bit was quite interesting whilst the Armstrong saga exploded, but as we now all now know pretty much everyone was up to, in to some degree, it has lost any shock value. Which I suppose why the twatterati are trying to disgrace the current crop of riders so they can get their sensationalism fix. :roll:

One positive outcome of exposing the extent of EPO use in the past should be major change in the top of the UCI. If they did not know about endemic drug use then they should be sacked, if they did know but swept it under the carpet then again they should be sacked. I suppose they could claim they were too busy, what with adding stickers to components, weighing bikes and measuring saddle positions. The fact that Pat is still fighting is quite incredulous.

Richmond Racer

Verbruggen was warned in the early 90s about EPO and the link to the deaths of the young riders were dropping down dead. Did toot all. And the best that he could come up with in the end after trying to do nothing for as long as possibel, was the 50% crit max, which just gave everyone a licence to dope up to 49.9%.

disgruntledgoat

RichN95 wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

I don't understand why he's not more p1ssed. He's been robbed of high placings, stage wins and who knows overall victories by a succession of cheats, many of whom are still in the peloton and many of whom probably still dope.

Because he's not sure that he would have won if everyone was clean. Instead he is famous for supposedly having ridden clean - something that will increasingly pay well. His prize and his achievement is a moral one - it is a competition he feels he has won.

Moncoutie's work ethic and training regime were legendary. As Matt Rendell once described it - "Pottering around a Parisian park twice a week". He made Freire look like a workaholic.

That and he couldn't ride in a bunch even after 12 years as a pro

RichN95.

Richmond Racer wrote:

Verbruggen was warned in the early 90s about EPO and the link to the deaths of the young riders were dropping down dead. Did toot all. And the best that he could come up with in the end after trying to do nothing for as long as possibel, was the 50% crit max, which just gave everyone a licence to dope up to 49.9%.

I'm not sure what he could have done. It's like a kid getting beaten up by a group of bullies - you can tell him to fight back, but in reality there's sod all he can do.