'98 retro testing...

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  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    doug5_10 wrote:
    Apparently Boardman's were too degraded to re-test . . .

    The sneaky devil!
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • binkybike
    binkybike Posts: 104
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Confessing to huge sigh of relief re Boardman...

    ...who'd have been tested multiple times on that Tour as wearing yellow

    And here's two fingers in the air to Vaughters who was spouting on Twatters last night that he reckoned 100% of the riders at the '98 Tour would have been on it

    Yeah, I would have been a bit miffed if Boardman had turned up. I'd still like him, but I do hope he was clean. mainly because it was tarnish how I felt as a kid in '92. I thought he was AWESOME!

    I understand Vaughers point though, just because you come up negative on this list doesn't mean you weren't doping. but surely there must of been some riders clean in '98, even if it was just riders still in their first 1,000 days.
  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    Wait, so if you don't come up with a positive test for epo today, and were tested, then you were absolutely clean of doping in 98?.. Let's not go all in on that theory.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    ThomThom wrote:
    Wait, so if you don't come up with a positive test for epo today, and were tested, then you were absolutely clean of doping in 98?.. Let's not go all in on that theory.

    Who said that?
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    ThomThom wrote:
    Wait, so if you don't come up with a positive test for epo today, and were tested, then you were absolutely clean of doping in 98?.. Let's not go all in on that theory.

    I'm not sure what else you can hang your hat on? are there tests from other races in 98 that they can re-test? If not, and unless the rider in question hasn't already coughed it, I guess you have to give them the benefit of the doubt.
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    ThomThom wrote:
    Wait, so if you don't come up with a positive test for epo today, and were tested, then you were absolutely clean of doping in 98?.. Let's not go all in on that theory.


    OK. But if you didnt dope for the biggest bike race in the world, the race's no 1 in terms of importance to your team and sponsors (and you werent Italian and so the Giro was your biggest focus), and you were employed to try to win the Prologue for your team with it being a matter of 'job done' if you achieved that....what would you dope for? The Milk Race? A domestic crit?
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    edited July 2013
    ThomThom wrote:
    Wait, so if you don't come up with a positive test for epo today, and were tested, then you were absolutely clean of doping in 98?.. Let's not go all in on that theory.
    If someone's sample is negative then I'll give them some credit, yes. It may not prove anything but this race was before there was an EPO test so those using could use liberally (before the police raids started) so having no trace is something that can be noted in the plus column.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Turfle
    Turfle Posts: 3,762
    I've no doubt there were riders not on the list who doped before or after, but it's nice to put another little tick in the "reasons to think clean" column for Boardman.
  • doug5_10
    doug5_10 Posts: 465
    So was there 44 samples tested? Apparently 122 total but most too degraded. 18 positives, Hamburger, Ullrich + Livingston twice makes 21. Even including the 'suspicious' results that only makes 33. 11 short, surely if someone tested negative that would have been a bigger story!!
    Edinburgh Revolution Curve
    http://app.strava.com/athletes/1920048
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    doug5_10 wrote:
    So was there 44 samples tested? Apparently 122 total but most too degraded. 18 positives, Hamburger, Ullrich + Livingston twice makes 21. Even including the 'suspicious' results that only makes 33. 11 short, surely if someone tested negative that would have been a bigger story!!
    According to some reporters samples from Boardman, Svorada, Den Bakker and two from O'Grady were negative (as posted by someone earlier). A German Eurosport person said Voigt was negative too.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    Hamburger: Always cooked to perfection and juicy inside.

    Has O'Grady announced his comeback, yet?
    Few surprises, if any. Maybe Merckx junior not getting a full house, but that's about it.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • thomthom
    thomthom Posts: 3,574
    Do they elaborate a bit on the suspecious test?.. I mean, being suspicious in 98 is more than just being.. yeah.. suspicious...
  • nic_77
    nic_77 Posts: 929
    Boardman gave his secret away on the ITV Broomwagon webcast recently... when asked about his experience of having to produce a urine sample he said something along the lines of always having a few hundred ml held 'in reserve'

    Obviously I knew what he meant, but it made me smile at the time thinking of his secret stash of clean pee.

    I have never doubted that he was clean - the Boardman Air/TT in the garage is my witness to that :)
    Strava
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  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Voigt is not on that list.

    Voigt is not on that list.

    Voigt is not on that list.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • Art Vandelay
    Art Vandelay Posts: 1,982
    Here's that Vaughter's quote:
    "(I'm) suggesting that pre 1998 Tour, 100% of participants would be positive. But due to testing constraints only certain names revealed."
    Really JV?
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    like everyone else I want the negative list
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • mididoctors
    mididoctors Posts: 18,908
    btw are we really going to get a tour with no positives this year?
    "If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm
  • sherer
    sherer Posts: 2,460
    mididoctors wrote:
    like everyone else I want the negative list

    what we need to know is who was tested and who wasn't If they didn't test you then you had no chance to be on the positive list.

    One thing it does show lots of riders used EPO throughout the race rather than before, doesn't it only show positive for a few hours or days ? Or is that the current EPO like CERA
  • Turfle
    Turfle Posts: 3,762
    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/i-dop ... 6684658992

    Stuey 'fesses up with the "I only did it once" excuse.
  • Art Vandelay
    Art Vandelay Posts: 1,982
    According to @tourguideno

    People on the doping list still active in cycling: Zabel (Katusha), Heppner (NetApp director), Blijlevens (commentator Eurosport), Julich (BMC trainer), Merckx (Team Bontrager director), Stefano Zanini (Astana director), Blijlevens (Belkin director), Jacky Durand (Commentator Eurosport), Olano (Vuelta Espana director), Chanteur (President UNCP)...
  • bipedal
    bipedal Posts: 466
    Turfle wrote:
    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/i-doped-for-1998-tour-de-france-confesses-australian-cycling-star-stuart-ogrady/story-fngr0c3f-1226684658992

    Stuey 'fesses up with the "I only did it once" excuse.

    ahhh the tried and tested Zabel defence... never doped on csc, nope, no siree
  • dave milne
    dave milne Posts: 703
    Loads of people threw it away after the festina bust, meaning potnetially a lot more negatives at the end of the tour than there might have been otherwise.

    O'Grady said he did it, Hamilton said US Postal threw the whole teams supply away. Sure there must be others.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    dave milne wrote:
    Loads of people threw it away after the festina bust, meaning potnetially a lot more negatives at the end of the tour than there might have been otherwise.

    O'Grady said he did it, Hamilton said US Postal threw the whole teams supply away. Sure there must be others.


    Emma O'Reilly told David Walsh that there was $$$$$$ of stash flushed down toilets etc by soigneurs for various teams
  • shinyhelmut
    shinyhelmut Posts: 1,364
    bipedal wrote:
    Turfle wrote:
    http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/i-doped-for-1998-tour-de-france-confesses-australian-cycling-star-stuart-ogrady/story-fngr0c3f-1226684658992

    Stuey 'fesses up with the "I only did it once" excuse.

    ahhh the tried and tested Zabel defence... never doped on csc, nope, no siree

    And certainly not for any of my best results. I was pure as the driven snow when I won PR honest...:
  • knedlicky
    knedlicky Posts: 3,097
    doug5_10 wrote:
    So was there 44 samples tested? Apparently 122 total but most too degraded. 18 positives, Hamburger, Ullrich + Livingston twice makes 21. Even including the 'suspicious' results that only makes 33. 11 short, surely if someone tested negative that would have been a bigger story!!
    The tabulation of the retro-testing for 1998 seemed to show 44 positives based on autoradiography analysis of the samples but that substantiating laboratory analysis had not been done on 10 of them. In addition, 4 positives and 2 negatives were considered worthy of laboratory re-analysis. After re-analysis, maybe they'd swop places?
    Without the laboratory confirmation, I imagine it can’t definitely be said that all 44 (and possibly the two re-analysed negatives) were positive.
    The discrepancy which you mention might have something to do with this.
    (The tabulation didn't distinguish between definite positives and just suspicious results)

    The tabulation I saw had 102 samples listed for 1998 (not 122 as you write), of which 9 showed natural levels of Epo (including the two considered for re-analysis), 7 with undetectable levels of Epo, and 42 too degraded to re-test.
    Depending on whether the samples with low levels of Epo were natural levels or whether controlled doping was going on, it seems doping in 1998 was between 50% and 90%.

    The tabulation for the retro-testing of 1999 samples is more exact and shows doping dropped in 1999 to somewhere between 20% and 65%.
    22 autoradiography ‘positives’, only 2 of which weren’t laboratory confirmed (3 were considered worthy of re-analysis), 33 natural levels of Epo (11 of which considered for re-analysis), 31 with undetectable levels of Epo, and only 4 too degraded to re-test, total 88.
  • ms_tree
    ms_tree Posts: 1,405
    None of you seem to have noticed that Bjarne Riis ISN'T on either list. :roll:
    'Google can bring back a hundred thousand answers. A librarian can bring you back the right one.'
    Neil Gaiman
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Ms Tree wrote:
    None of you seem to have noticed that Bjarne Riis ISN'T on either list. :roll:
    About 150 people aren't on the list. It's mostly meaningless.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • ms_tree
    ms_tree Posts: 1,405
    I agree Rich which is why I put the rolling eyes. Basically what is the point of it in the grand scheme of things?
    'Google can bring back a hundred thousand answers. A librarian can bring you back the right one.'
    Neil Gaiman
  • slim_boy_fat
    slim_boy_fat Posts: 1,810
    Ms Tree wrote:
    I agree Rich which is why I put the rolling eyes. Basically what is the point of it in the grand scheme of things?
    It has zero point other than to make those looking at cycling from the outside to say 'tsk, there goes cycling, full of dopers.'
  • Cleat Eastwood
    Cleat Eastwood Posts: 7,508
    O'Grady retires just before the news breaks, which can only mean one thing......he has a line of cycling merchandise coming out :lol:
    The dissenter is every human being at those moments of his life when he resigns
    momentarily from the herd and thinks for himself.

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