Nibali too Fresh?

afx237vi

frenchfighter wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

clanton wrote:

Nah its just Astana's superior training programme kicking in. Just look at how much better Tiralongo, Iglinksy and kangert are riding these days. Nothing dodgy going on at all.

Dunno what you've been watching, but Tiralongo has been much worse than normal in this Giro and I didn't even realise Iglinskiy was in the race. Kangert has been impressive, but I reckon we're only noticing him because of the jersey.

Tiralongo has been ill as has Aru. I`m sure we would have seen a lot more than them on the climbs if they hadnt been. Aru was doing a great job for Nibali before he got ill (and was leading the white jersey comp).

I knew that Tiralongo had been ill, but my point was more that Astana's mountain domestiques have been riding below what I'd normally expect, not above.

Ed-tron

I'd say the reason Nibali looks fresh is that he has not come under that much pressure yet. He hasn't been attacked that much by other GC contenders, and he himself hasn't done anything 'wrong' that would warrant him to put in a big effort.

For whats its worth, same goes for the Astana team. There were hints of them coming under pressure or leaving Nibali isolated earlier on in the race. But now with Uran fairly far down, and Cadel more of a gutsy rider who wont explode away from you, they just have to keep doing the simple things, nothing fancy.

Ron Stuart

TailWindHome wrote:

Ron Stuart wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Ron Stuart wrote:

clanton wrote:

Nah its just Astana's superior training programme kicking in. Just look at how much better Tiralongo, Iglinksy and kangert are riding these days. Nothing dodgy going on at all.

Talking of training programnes here is some of Michele Ferrari's customers http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/10/us-pos ... 1999-2006/

How dare we question! Remember that is exactly what LA used to say to the few journalist that had the balls to say what everybody else close to the events were thinking.

If it wasn't for the guts of a few individuals that scandal would never of been revealed, it's because of the work done by the likes of Sandro Donati, Travis Tygart and others that enabled Bradley Wiggins to compete on much more of a level playing field and become the first Brit to win the TDF.

Vigilance and questioning why some riders make large gains in performance will be the only way to keep the lid on it.

The difference is that Armstrong had a decade's worth of evidence and numerous first-hand accounts that directly implicated him. What is there against Nibali?

"Vigilance and questioning" is not the same thing as innuendo and rumour, which is what Wiggins had to put up with last year and now is being aimed at Nibali.

Has Wiggins not made greater gains in performance than Nibali over the last 2 years?

No the playing field has shrunk (got cleaner)!!!

So Wiggins can dominate for a year, having come from nowhere (from a road perspective), and it because of a level playing field. Nibali leads a GT by a minute odd (2 of his rivals having quit) and no especially good performances and it's evidence he is cheating.

This is part of the problem with innuendo. It has no internal logic.

So an upgraded third in the 2009 TDF is coming from nowhere ..... what utter drivel.

"internal logic"

Pross

This is the worst legacy of Armstrong et al for me, from now on anyone who decides a rider must be doping because they won and / or aren't collapsing over the finish line on a tough stage must be doping and if you dare ask for evidence you get 'that's what everyone said about Armstrong'. Someone has to win and someone will always be fitter and in better form thus leaving them fresher at the finish and more able to perform again the next day. Nibali has been a GC contender for years but had to often take a back seat to an ageing team mate.

tailwindhome

*sigh*

His previous best placing in a GT being 124th.

Never having broken into the top 120 of any GT.



That aside you seem to be entirely missing the point of what I've written.

Daz555

Nibbles looks comfortable because he is - who is pushing him? Now if we'd seen him up against a 2012-form Wiggo with Wiggo currently sitting in pink I doublt Nibbles would be so relaxed - he be riding himself into the ground trying to get the time back.

As it is, this Giro has turned out to be a walk for him so far - weather aside of course.

Pross

Ron Stuart wrote:

So an upgraded third in the 2009 TDF is coming from nowhere ..... what utter drivel.

"internal logic"

You can't have it both ways Ron. If you want to imply that Nibali might be up to no good then you have to accept the same with regards to Wiggins. Personally I've seen nothing to make me suspicious of either. At least Nibali has shown himself as a GT contender pretty much since the start of his pro career.

tailwindhome

Presumably if Nibali is doping, he only started this year.

You know, after being destroyed in the TDF by the clean Froome and Wiggins...

Pross wrote:

You can't have it both ways Ron.

gpreeves

Pross wrote:

This is the worst legacy of Armstrong et al for me, from now on anyone who decides a rider must be doping because they won and / or aren't collapsing over the finish line on a tough stage must be doping and if you dare ask for evidence you get 'that's what everyone said about Armstrong'. Someone has to win and someone will always be fitter and in better form thus leaving them fresher at the finish and more able to perform again the next day. Nibali has been a GC contender for years but had to often take a back seat to an ageing team mate.

Completely agree, the main problem is that insinuations of doping are largely made without reference to the calibre and form of the opponents. In terms of the absolute numbers (W/kg, VAM etc) Nibali's performance in the Giro could be less suspicious than the TDF last year - given the relative weakness of the current competition it is entirely possible. But we just don't know.

Insinuations can not be made on the basis of performances judged against a highly variable baseline (opponent calibre and form). Given the accepted physiological limits of power-to-weight ratios, there needs to be a serious push for the publication/sharing of power data to help flag suspicious rides. A high ratio would not in itself be proof, but it would be a useful indicator for the UCI/WADA to pay closer attention to a rider.

ddraver

It would be the better part of valour to just accept that you ve made a mistake here Ron...

mfin

Let's not forget though in regarding this 'legacy of Armstrong' that there were a lot of people 'believing' he was clean in the face of so much implication that you'd have to be an idiot to think so, and the performances you could see were utter fairytale tripe. Nibali crossing a finish line in a photo with the main competition 'not looking too bad' is absolutely nothing compared to what we saw of LA firing up a mountain knocking minutes off... so the two aren't even in the same f**king ballbark to quote Pulp Fiction.

The speculation here is based on bugger all (that's not me saying Nibs is and has always been clean, just saying its ridiculous to question it solely over things like these photos or his expressions at the end of a stage).

Ron Stuart

Thanks all youv'e helped fill an otherwise blank afternoon for me tat ta! over and out!!

ddraver

Ah yes, the old I was only trolling to make you all look stupid line...funny how it never seems to work eh, even funnier how it never seems to stop when the troller says so, even if he writes it in bold

joelsim

Classicomano Luigi? Or more to the point GTmano Luigi :-)

wombly_knees

I think the guy on the right has too much grey hair to not be doped if he climbed that himself.

Vino'sGhost

mfin wrote:

Let's not forget though in regarding this 'legacy of Armstrong' that there were a lot of people 'believing' he was clean in the face of so much implication that you'd have to be an idiot to think so, and the performances you could see were utter fairytale tripe. Nibali crossing a finish line in a photo with the main competition 'not looking too bad' is absolutely nothing compared to what we saw of LA firing up a mountain knocking minutes off... so the two aren't even in the same f**king ballbark to quote Pulp Fiction.

The speculation here is based on bugger all (that's not me saying Nibs is and has always been clean, just saying its ridiculous to question it solely over things like these photos or his expressions at the end of a stage).

And a prime example of that "ball park (fnar fnar)" was Armstrongs smak on the nts from the top tube on luz Ardiden after falling off courtesy of musette making him angry enough to blast past the main contenders whod left him behind and storming up a mountain to take the stage victory. you could smell the testosterone from that performance and it smelt of drugs like a crackwhores fingernails.

Nibali is nothing like that. Basso riding off and smoking the main contender for victory was but this is not.

Im loving it

thomthom

ddraver

thamacdaddy

I haven't seen Nibali dominant like this until this year. I remember contador hurting him in Giro's past and last year him losing touch on climbs that were easier than these in the Tour. I don't think he is doping but I do think he is in peak fitness where as the others are simply feeling good. The only rider you would think could put him in trouble in terms of form looks like betancur but he isn't in the GC race really now.

Wiggins looked off it from day one, evans looks like he always does and that is not taking anything away. I think if you had contador, froome, talansky, van garderen, roland et all with him here in peak form we might see the usual nibbles - one day cracked on a climb where the pace is just too much and losing a minute or so to rivals. Like wiggins last year I think he has peaked his form and no one is close. What I don't expect to see though is him take part in the Tour or be quite as dominant. The giro is over, no one looked like they could even trouble him on the Galiber.

secretsqirrel

Ron Stuart wrote:

Does anyone else think the guy on the right is finishing hard stages too fresh?

3 of the craggiest faces in he peloton vs guy in nicely white arm warmers......

Sigh.........missed all the fun

LeicesterLad

Wiggins in just in top, top form. I made a comment earlier this year that I didn't think he would ever win another Grand Tour - i'm currently eating my words. BUT - Would like to see how he faired against Froome, Contador et al on top form.

tailwindhome

LeicesterLad wrote:

Wiggins in just in top, top form. I made a comment earlier this year that I didn't think he would ever win another Grand Tour - i'm currently eating my words. BUT - Would like to see how he faired against Froome, Contador et al on top form.

You mean Nibali, yeah?

Yellow Peril

Is Ron statring an "Armstrong-misunderstood" thread today?

plectrum

1 Minute more dominant than the entire field from a cyclist who is historically an above average TTer - sure he is best at the mountain TTs but to smash everyone else in such a style.... Will cycling ever be clean - its just utterly ridiculous now. Am I the only person who is now left utterly unconvinced about Team Vino and their starlet Nibs? :roll: Happy to be convinced otherwise by those more in the know - is today's performance expected?

Daz555

Nothing about his performance was unbelievable - it's just that his rivals were not good enough to match him.

If a fit Wiggo was still in the Giro, Nibs would not have taken a minute out of him - there is even a case for saying a fit Wiggo would have beaten him.

You can only beat those put in front of you.

RichN95.

Beating 'above average' basically sums it up. All he beat was an ageing GC rider who hasn't been riding for GC most of this race. Then it's a load of riders for whom a TT is usually seen as a weak point and Stef Clement.

If he had hammered the likes of Froome, Porte, van Garderen, Peraud and Contador maybe you would have a point. But he didn't. The only rider in that class had a stinker.

Le Commentateur

@CadelOfficial
Uphill TT done here at the Giro: Nibali in a class of his own. Evans -if I may say so myself- abysmal.... #giro #goodtraining

jezzpalmer

plectrum wrote:

1 Minute more dominant than the entire field from a cyclist who is historically an above average TTer - sure he is best at the mountain TTs but to smash everyone else in such a style.... Will cycling ever be clean - its just utterly ridiculous now. Am I the only person who is now left utterly unconvinced about Team Vino and their starlet Nibs? :roll: Happy to be convinced otherwise by those more in the know - is today's performance expected?

To help redress the balance, I'm sceptical too.
Being an Italian in Italy we'll probably never know; but suspect with the apparent jump in performance he's on the UCI suspicion list.

blazing_saddles

Might be time to refresh everyone's memory, now we have a fresh thread
with fresh evidence suggesting that there's something about Astana that smells
far from fresh:

viewtopic.php?f=40002&t=12923108

wombly_knees

This race was built up as the primera liga. All the pre race talk was solely focussed on two competitors, and Wiggins pulleda Rangers that has left Celtic to do the sweeping up.

I'm far more surprised by Evans holding on to second despite entering the race with barely any form.