Nibali too Fresh?

Ron Stuart

Does anyone else think the guy on the right is finishing hard stages too fresh?

slim_boy_fat

Nah he's just on v good form. And it always easier when your in the leaders jersey, just ask Wiggo.

Pross

Wondered how long it would take for some insinuations to be made.

goonz

Wait, what are you implying?

rickyrider

Pross wrote:

Wondered how long it would take for some insinuations to be made.

Well joining a team with Vino as general manager is hardly a ringing endorsement of clean cycling. Oops, I just fed the troll. (OP that is)

joelsim

I think the Astana boys have done him proud to be honest

Yellow Peril

He's better than the others but not by such a huge margin. It's hardly a peleton dropping trouser swelling performance that would register of the Bjarne Riis-ometer is it?

clanton

Nah its just Astana's superior training programme kicking in. Just look at how much better Tiralongo, Iglinksy and kangert are riding these days. Nothing dodgy going on at all.

goonz

Or a LA 'blast everyone on Alpe D'Huez, like its a walk in the park' performance.

lucan2

It's difficult not to be just a little cynical, given the history of the sport. Sadly, those who have gone before have cast this shadow over every good performance.

afx237vi

clanton wrote:

Nah its just Astana's superior training programme kicking in. Just look at how much better Tiralongo, Iglinksy and kangert are riding these days. Nothing dodgy going on at all.

Dunno what you've been watching, but Tiralongo has been much worse than normal in this Giro and I didn't even realise Iglinskiy was in the race. Kangert has been impressive, but I reckon we're only noticing him because of the jersey.

RoadPainter

An unrepentant doper like Vino being involved would make many people wonder.

I believe he's the type of person that most of us wouldn't want involved in the future of the sport.

inkyfingers

Don't think Nibali is doing anything that he hasn't done in the past, climbing well, but not exactly dropping everyone at will. It's hardly a stellar field now either unfortunately, only other proven GT contender is Evans and he's never done much other than cling on in the mountains, which is exactly what he's done here.

Only real improvement was in his TT performance, but then it wasn't a typical TT course with all the technical ups and downs then a steep finishing climb, will be interesting to see him ride a long, flat TT against Wiggins at some point and see how far he's really progressed.

ddraver

Agree, nothing much to see here at all. 2 of his rivals fell ill, one is getting on a bit and wasnt supposed to be racing at all, the spanish contingent did nt start, and the columbian contingent to be honest are nt quite at the very very highest level just yet.

To be honest, that's why its been so dull, you never win a GT by default, but Nibbles (through no fault of his own) has come pretty close this year.

Paul 8v

I would like to think there is too much to lose for any serious GC rider these days.
I think Nibali looks strong but not superhuman.

specialgueststar

Scarponi is 33 and doing really well considering his past and if he is just on water.

Evans always looks knackered - even when he's sat down having a sandwich

Uran's on the edge as new team leader and suddenly having to defend his position

Nibali is 28 in the form of his life - maybe it's just not hurting him that much.

Ron Stuart

clanton wrote:

Nah its just Astana's superior training programme kicking in. Just look at how much better Tiralongo, Iglinksy and kangert are riding these days. Nothing dodgy going on at all.

Talking of training programnes here is some of Michele Ferrari's customers http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/10/us-pos ... 1999-2006/

How dare we question! Remember that is exactly what LA used to say to the few journalist that had the balls to say what everybody else close to the events were thinking.

If it wasn't for the guts of a few individuals that scandal would never of been revealed, it's because of the work done by the likes of Sandro Donati, Travis Tygart and others that enabled Bradley Wiggins to compete on much more of a level playing field and become the first Brit to win the TDF.

Vigilance and questioning why some riders make large gains in performance will be the only way to keep the lid on it.

Regards my question, I agree with some of the replies regards problems with his competitors making life easier, I guess it's the old history of dopers finishing really hard stages and looking like they could do it again that puts me off.

Crozza

SpecialGuestStar wrote:

Evans always looks knackered - even when he's sat down having a sandwich

some people just don't look that blown in photos,. I am always surprised how tranquillo I look in race photos, when my legs and HRM are telling a very different story

ddraver

Ron Stuart wrote:

clanton wrote:

Nah its just Astana's superior training programme kicking in. Just look at how much better Tiralongo, Iglinksy and kangert are riding these days. Nothing dodgy going on at all.

Talking of training programnes here is some of Michele Ferrari's customers http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/10/us-pos ... 1999-2006/

How dare we question! Remember that is exactly what LA used to say to the few journalist that had the balls to say what everybody else close to the events were thinking.

If it wasn't for the guts of a few individuals that scandal would never of been revealed, it's because of the work done by the likes of Sandro Donati, Travis Tygart and others that enabled Bradley Wiggins to compete on much more of a level playing field and become the first Brit to win the TDF.

Vigilance and questioning why some riders make large gains in performance will be the only way to keep the lid on it.

I don't think Clanton was being over serious Ron....

afx237vi

Ron Stuart wrote:

clanton wrote:

Nah its just Astana's superior training programme kicking in. Just look at how much better Tiralongo, Iglinksy and kangert are riding these days. Nothing dodgy going on at all.

Talking of training programnes here is some of Michele Ferrari's customers http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/10/us-pos ... 1999-2006/

How dare we question! Remember that is exactly what LA used to say to the few journalist that had the balls to say what everybody else close to the events were thinking.

If it wasn't for the guts of a few individuals that scandal would never of been revealed, it's because of the work done by the likes of Sandro Donati, Travis Tygart and others that enabled Bradley Wiggins to compete on much more of a level playing field and become the first Brit to win the TDF.

Vigilance and questioning why some riders make large gains in performance will be the only way to keep the lid on it.

The difference is that Armstrong had a decade's worth of evidence and numerous first-hand accounts that directly implicated him. What is there against Nibali?

"Vigilance and questioning" is not the same thing as innuendo and rumour, which is what Wiggins had to put up with last year and now is being aimed at Nibali.

tailwindhome

afx237vi wrote:

Ron Stuart wrote:

clanton wrote:

Nah its just Astana's superior training programme kicking in. Just look at how much better Tiralongo, Iglinksy and kangert are riding these days. Nothing dodgy going on at all.

Talking of training programnes here is some of Michele Ferrari's customers http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/10/us-pos ... 1999-2006/

How dare we question! Remember that is exactly what LA used to say to the few journalist that had the balls to say what everybody else close to the events were thinking.

If it wasn't for the guts of a few individuals that scandal would never of been revealed, it's because of the work done by the likes of Sandro Donati, Travis Tygart and others that enabled Bradley Wiggins to compete on much more of a level playing field and become the first Brit to win the TDF.

Vigilance and questioning why some riders make large gains in performance will be the only way to keep the lid on it.

The difference is that Armstrong had a decade's worth of evidence and numerous first-hand accounts that directly implicated him. What is there against Nibali?

"Vigilance and questioning" is not the same thing as innuendo and rumour, which is what Wiggins had to put up with last year and now is being aimed at Nibali.

Has Wiggins not made greater gains in performance than Nibali over the last 2 years?

Ron Stuart

afx237vi wrote:

Ron Stuart wrote:

clanton wrote:

Nah its just Astana's superior training programme kicking in. Just look at how much better Tiralongo, Iglinksy and kangert are riding these days. Nothing dodgy going on at all.

Talking of training programnes here is some of Michele Ferrari's customers http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/10/us-pos ... 1999-2006/

How dare we question! Remember that is exactly what LA used to say to the few journalist that had the balls to say what everybody else close to the events were thinking.

If it wasn't for the guts of a few individuals that scandal would never of been revealed, it's because of the work done by the likes of Sandro Donati, Travis Tygart and others that enabled Bradley Wiggins to compete on much more of a level playing field and become the first Brit to win the TDF.

Vigilance and questioning why some riders make large gains in performance will be the only way to keep the lid on it.

The difference is that Armstrong had a decade's worth of evidence and numerous first-hand accounts that directly implicated him. What is there against Nibali?

"Vigilance and questioning" is not the same thing as innuendo and rumour, which is what Wiggins had to put up with last year and now is being aimed at Nibali.

So what do you suggest we wait another decade before we have the right to comment?

Ron Stuart

TailWindHome wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Ron Stuart wrote:

clanton wrote:

Nah its just Astana's superior training programme kicking in. Just look at how much better Tiralongo, Iglinksy and kangert are riding these days. Nothing dodgy going on at all.

Talking of training programnes here is some of Michele Ferrari's customers http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/10/us-pos ... 1999-2006/

How dare we question! Remember that is exactly what LA used to say to the few journalist that had the balls to say what everybody else close to the events were thinking.

If it wasn't for the guts of a few individuals that scandal would never of been revealed, it's because of the work done by the likes of Sandro Donati, Travis Tygart and others that enabled Bradley Wiggins to compete on much more of a level playing field and become the first Brit to win the TDF.

Vigilance and questioning why some riders make large gains in performance will be the only way to keep the lid on it.

The difference is that Armstrong had a decade's worth of evidence and numerous first-hand accounts that directly implicated him. What is there against Nibali?

"Vigilance and questioning" is not the same thing as innuendo and rumour, which is what Wiggins had to put up with last year and now is being aimed at Nibali.

Has Wiggins not made greater gains in performance than Nibali over the last 2 years?

No the playing field has shrunk (got cleaner)!!!

Paul 8v

Crozza wrote:

SpecialGuestStar wrote:

Evans always looks knackered - even when he's sat down having a sandwich

some people just don't look that blown in photos,. I am always surprised how tranquillo I look in race photos, when my legs and HRM are telling a very different story

I'm more from the Evans school of riding!

afx237vi

TailWindHome wrote:

Has Wiggins not made greater gains in performance than Nibali over the last 2 years?

Exactly. Any criticism of the way Nibali is riding the Giro can surely be aimed at Wiggins twice as much?!

Here's his GT record:

2012: 3rd TDF
2011: 2nd Giro, 7th Vuelta
2010: 3rd Giro, 1st Vuelta
2009: 7th TDF
2008: 11th Giro, 18th TDF
2007: 19th Giro

If that's not a consistent career trajectory, I don't know what is.

afx237vi

Ron Stuart wrote:

So what do you suggest we wait another decade before we have the right to comment?

How about judging riders as individuals instead of forming an opinion based on what other people have done in the past?

above_the_cows

Are we supposed to draw a conclusion from one photograph?

Maybe he just has a better poker face than the others.

inkyfingers

afx237vi wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Has Wiggins not made greater gains in performance than Nibali over the last 2 years?

Exactly. Any criticism of the way Nibali is riding the Giro can surely be aimed at Wiggins twice as much?!

Here's his GT record:

2012: 3rd TDF
2011: 2nd Giro, 7th Vuelta
2010: 3rd Giro, 1st Vuelta
2009: 7th TDF
2008: 11th Giro, 18th TDF
2007: 19th Giro

If that's not a consistent career trajectory, I don't know what is.

Agree with you on Nibali, but comparing his career to Wiggins is impossible, with Wiggins having effectively re-invented himself as a road cyclist after Beijing. It still leaves room for doubt though, which is what certain people will pick up on ad wave as proof as doping.

Nothing is ever cut and dried though, reading some opinions you'd think that Lance Armstrong had gone from a nobody to a TdF winner, when the truth is that he was always a very gifted athlete. EPO didn't make Armstrong a great bike rider, but it did make him a TdF winner.

With Wiggins you could almost compare him to somebody like Rebecca Romero, who went from being a world class rower, to being a world class track cyclist. She was clearly born to be an athlete, with the natural physical advantages and mental capacity that you need to reach the top levels of sport.

Truth is that I don't trust anybody, but I think you need to be careful making broad assumptions and turning those into facts.

tailwindhome

Ron Stuart wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Ron Stuart wrote:

clanton wrote:

Nah its just Astana's superior training programme kicking in. Just look at how much better Tiralongo, Iglinksy and kangert are riding these days. Nothing dodgy going on at all.

Talking of training programnes here is some of Michele Ferrari's customers http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/10/us-pos ... 1999-2006/

How dare we question! Remember that is exactly what LA used to say to the few journalist that had the balls to say what everybody else close to the events were thinking.

If it wasn't for the guts of a few individuals that scandal would never of been revealed, it's because of the work done by the likes of Sandro Donati, Travis Tygart and others that enabled Bradley Wiggins to compete on much more of a level playing field and become the first Brit to win the TDF.

Vigilance and questioning why some riders make large gains in performance will be the only way to keep the lid on it.

The difference is that Armstrong had a decade's worth of evidence and numerous first-hand accounts that directly implicated him. What is there against Nibali?

"Vigilance and questioning" is not the same thing as innuendo and rumour, which is what Wiggins had to put up with last year and now is being aimed at Nibali.

Has Wiggins not made greater gains in performance than Nibali over the last 2 years?

No the playing field has shrunk (got cleaner)!!!

So Wiggins can dominate for a year, having come from nowhere (from a road perspective), and it because of a level playing field. Nibali leads a GT by a minute odd (2 of his rivals having quit) and no especially good performances and it's evidence he is cheating.

This is part of the problem with innuendo. It has no internal logic.

frenchfighter

afx237vi wrote:

clanton wrote:

Nah its just Astana's superior training programme kicking in. Just look at how much better Tiralongo, Iglinksy and kangert are riding these days. Nothing dodgy going on at all.

Dunno what you've been watching, but Tiralongo has been much worse than normal in this Giro and I didn't even realise Iglinskiy was in the race. Kangert has been impressive, but I reckon we're only noticing him because of the jersey.

Tiralongo has been ill as has Aru. I`m sure we would have seen a lot more than them on the climbs if they hadnt been. Aru was doing a great job for Nibali before he got ill (and was leading the white jersey comp).

tailwindhome

Ron Stuart wrote:

Does anyone else think the guy on the right is finishing hard stages too fresh?

Not a lot of genuine top tier GC men in that photo.

The rider in second place, is generally thought of a past-his-prime clean rider, and he's allegedly only there to find some form.

Nibali is only a minute odd ahead of him.