RVV- SPOILERS

IanTrcp

EKIMIKE wrote:

Mooro wrote:

or perhaps they are missing a bit of racecraft from Sean Yates to advise on positioning etc during the early / mid section of the races?

Boasson Hagen was perfectly placed to follow Fabu and Sagan. He just didn't have the legs. Simple as.

+1

mididoctors

IanTrcp wrote:

EKIMIKE wrote:

Mooro wrote:

or perhaps they are missing a bit of racecraft from Sean Yates to advise on positioning etc during the early / mid section of the races?

Boasson Hagen was perfectly placed to follow Fabu and Sagan. He just didn't have the legs. Simple as.

+1

+2

Moomaloid

can we have the old route back now please?

EKIMIKE

Sky (in the classics) need to stop riding like they have top favourites and more like the underdogs they are. Stannard did it in MSR. Roelandts did it for Lotto today.

I mean, not one of them even tried to get in the breaks today. Pretty inept. Mind you, most of them are quite young and inexperienced.

LeicesterLad

Jeez, the arguments on this forum lately, and in the RVV thread too.

Back on topic.

Good rider won boring race with big attack. 250km snoozefest for 10 seconds of excitement on the Paterberg.

Anybody that says this has been a great race is deluded. I find myself falling out of love with the Belgian classics more and more each year.

Some riders need to learn to step up to the task and try to win rather than fanny about looking for a top 5 finish. Said it earlier I will say it again, if Gatto can puncture and get back in the chasing group with 8km to go, then they are not a chasing group.

If Sky want to win a classic, stop backing EBH. He's shoot. (OK, not shoot but certainly not 'Eddy Merckx' - ok, so he's 25, Sagan is 24. The End.)

Frenchie, Cancelllara clearly stronger than Sagan but calling Sagan a wheelsucker and moaning about him not taking turns is ridiculous. Other than Roelandts did you see any of the other 200 riders even looking remotely capable of using their brain or trying to take it to Fabu? (And besides, Fabu took a wheel change, we all know it had a small motor in it ) To not measure Sagan as a successful, gutsy and strong rider is ridiculous. His podium exploits did however lack this 'class' you speak of. Comes accross as a bit grubby.

Will I watch Paris-Roubaix? Of course I will, will It be thrilling? Probably not. Think the Ardennes will be a better watch this year.

Jez mon

mididoctors wrote:

basically this

team sky do not have the firepower all they can do is follow... I think they woul be better suited getting people down the road and throwing the dice

I'm not so sure. I think Sky do have riders with classics potential. Geraint needs to stay up before we can really judge what he's about, Stanard showed he has a fair bit about him in MSR and I still hold out some hope that EBH can fulfil some of his early promise...after all his performance at the worlds suggested he can cope with longer races.

Having said that, they clearly don't have anyone with the surname Sagan, Boonen or Cancellara. So they are going to struggle.

EKIMIKE

LeicesterLad wrote:

Good rider won boring race with big attack. 250km snoozefest for 10 seconds of excitement on the Paterberg.

Oh come on, how can you ignore the Kwaremont? That was where the race was really won and it was pretty exciting. It's definitely the best part about the new route but still, it's no Muur.

LeicesterLad wrote:

Anybody that says this has been a great race is deluded.

Amen to that!

LeicesterLad wrote:

if Gatto can puncture and get back in the chasing group with 8km to go, then they are not a chasing group.

Bah that's no good measure! If anything it just shows that Gatto is in great form. In a similar vein it makes me laugh how almost every single day race people are baffled at how 25 blokes can't bring back one or two guys who have 30 seconds.

The answer is: this is not a stage race or a chipper. Everyone is on their limit. They may be riding in a group but it's mano-a-mano as far as their legs are concerned. So the guys with the best form will invariably be able to do things that defy conventional bicycle racing.

EKIMIKE

Jez mon wrote:

I still hold out some hope that EBH can fulfil some of his early promise...after all his performance at the worlds suggested he can cope with longer races.

Take your personal feelings out of it for starters. Objectively he's in the mid-2nd tier of cobbled classics riders. Yes his Worlds performance proves he can go the distance, but can he cope with the cobbles?

mooro

EKIMIKE wrote:

Sky (in the classics) need to stop riding like they have top favourites and more like the underdogs they are. Stannard did it in MSR. Roelandts did it for Lotto today.

I mean, not one of them even tried to get in the breaks today. Pretty inept. Mind you, most of them are quite young and inexperienced.

Thats kind of what i was getting at, just you put it better. Unless there is an opportunity to put a train on the front then sky seem to struggle tactically. RSNT had four guys driving the pace for mid / latter part of the race to drive the pace as Cancellara is quite self reliant in the bunch, as he showed coming back from his wheel change - magic bottle aside.

You need more than plan A if you dont have the best riders - Van summeran proves that its possible from last year, and i would have thought that if their tactics were to get in breaks then we would have seen this earlier in the day.

DeadCalm

EKIMIKE wrote:

Bah that's no good measure! If anything it just shows that Gatto is in great form. In a similar vein it makes me laugh how almost every single day race people are baffled at how 25 blokes can't bring back one or two guys who have 30 seconds.

The answer is: this is not a stage race or a chipper. Everyone is on their limit. They may be riding in a group but it's mano-a-mano as far as their legs are concerned. So the guys with the best form will invariably be able to do things that defy conventional bicycle racing.

So, the laws of physics don't apply in the Classics? There's no benefit to drafting when you're on the limit? Really?

mididoctors

we never really saw how gatto got back on TBH

afx237vi

mididoctors wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

Sagan needs to be had up for that, he's just a boy I guess but jayzuss thats naff ... can we get rid of the podium girls...its just so anachronistic and crass, just fuels the behaviour

Cycling traditions, anachronistic?

No way.

yeah I get this ain't no big thing but thats why it should go.... johnny bugno in the team car with the lipton ice tea girls is a great yarn and all... but ATEOTD is just naff..the fact that it is trivial makes it more the case for dropping the entire thing... if it's no big thing it won't be missed

is it harmless fun....well when it gets to unreconstructed anti-metrosexual sex hobgoblins like myself thinking its all a bit much then I seriously doubt the necessity of all this.

at the very very very least some sort of protocol briefing for the PROFESSIONAL riders and a more elegant style akin to the Credit lyonaise models

I am not overly down on Sagan individually here as much as the entire thing.

Agree with all this. Podium girls belong in a different age.

EKIMIKE

DeadCalm wrote:

So, the laws of physics don't apply in the Classics? There's no benefit to drafting when you're on the limit? Really?

One, that's not what I said.

Two, peddling/power is the key variable. Not drafting. Drafting doesn't catch breakaways. Peddling faster than the escapee's does.

If you can collectively peddle faster than the escapee(s) through the benefits of drafting then great but if everyone legs are shot then it won't happen. After 230km of riding around Flanders and over the hellingen most riders legs are shot so it comes down to who's legs are less shot.

You're confusing the laws of physics with the 'conventional norms' of cycling. Try again.

Vino'sGhost

mididoctors wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

EKIMIKE wrote:

Anyway, how about the race...

Route change anyone?

They have to.
That lap is killing the race.
Dullest edition I can remember.
Hardly worth the comment.

I can remember some pretty dull bunch finishes to be honest on the old route

I quite like it tbh

takethehighroad

Race = 4/10

Sexual assault - 1/10

Forum banter - 1/10

Canc - 8/10

Boonen - Oh dear

Paris Roubaix - 5/10, if we're lucky?

Podium girls - culture

Sagan - 6.5/10

Belgian beer - 7/10

Spanish beer - 5/10

Italian beer - 8.5/10

And by the way AtC, don't even condider looking at The LAD Bible, you might explode

DeadCalm

EKIMIKE wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

So, the laws of physics don't apply in the Classics? There's no benefit to drafting when you're on the limit? Really?

One, that's not what I said.

Two, peddling/power is the key variable. Not drafting. Drafting doesn't catch breakaways. Peddling faster than the escapee's does.

If you can collectively peddle faster than the escapee(s) through the benefits of drafting then great but if everyone legs are shot then it won't happen. After 230km of riding around Flanders and over the hellingen most riders legs are shot so it comes down to who's legs are less shot.

You're confusing the laws of physics with the 'conventional norms' of cycling. Try again.

I'm not trying to be argumentative but I am genuinely struggling to understand your point.
I presume you accept that as a result of the laws of physics a rider who is drafting requires less power to go at the same speed as a rider who is not drafting? I presume you also accept that this applies whether or not a rider's legs are 'shot''? So would you not agree that a rider riding in a bunch that is cooperating will be using less total power than a rider who is riding solo in the wind at the same speed, irrespective of whose legs are the least 'shot'. Assuming you'd agree with all that, I'm unsure how you could describe a bunch of 25 versus a one or two man break as 'mano-a-mano as far as their legs are concerned'.

afx237vi

Best bit was Harmon saying Cance had literally killed Sagan on the Paterberg. I had to rewind to see if it was true.

It wasn't true.

DeadCalm

vetooo ‏@ammattipyoraily 2h
Re-calculation. Ronde van Vlaanderen (BEL). Last 13.26 km. Fabian Cancellara: 16 min 8 sec = 49.314 Kph. #RVV

the Inner Ring ‏@inrng 2h
@ammattipyoraily into a headwind too.

vetooo ‏@ammattipyoraily 1h
Re-calculation. Ronde van Vlaanderen (BEL). Last 13.26 km. Peter Sagan: 17 min 30 sec = 45.463 Kph Jürgen Roelandts: ~17:20-17:25

gpreeves

DeadCalm wrote:

EKIMIKE wrote:

DeadCalm wrote:

So, the laws of physics don't apply in the Classics? There's no benefit to drafting when you're on the limit? Really?

One, that's not what I said.

Two, peddling/power is the key variable. Not drafting. Drafting doesn't catch breakaways. Peddling faster than the escapee's does.

If you can collectively peddle faster than the escapee(s) through the benefits of drafting then great but if everyone legs are shot then it won't happen. After 230km of riding around Flanders and over the hellingen most riders legs are shot so it comes down to who's legs are less shot.

You're confusing the laws of physics with the 'conventional norms' of cycling. Try again.

I'm not trying to be argumentative but I am genuinely struggling to understand your point.
I presume you accept that as a result of the laws of physics a rider who is drafting requires less power to go at the same speed as a rider who is not drafting? I presume you also accept that this applies whether or not a rider's legs are 'shot''? So would you not agree that a rider riding in a bunch that is cooperating will be using less total power than a rider who is riding solo in the wind at the same speed, irrespective of whose legs are the least 'shot'. Assuming you'd agree with all that, I'm unsure how you could describe a bunch of 25 versus a one or two man break as 'mano-a-mano as far as their legs are concerned'.

You're correct regarding drafting and the necessary power output, but what I believe Ekimike is saying (correct me if I'm wrong) is that by the end of a classics race there is often nobody in the bunch of 25 capable of putting out the necessary power to reach the same/greater speed than the leader.

Although drafting will be of some assistance to those following in the bunch it is still necessary for one rider to be exposed to the wind who won't aerodynamically benefit from being part of the bunch. Theoretically working together should overcome this problem, but after 200km+/cobbles/climbs it is possible that nobody except the very strongest is capable of doing any more than soft pedalling. Also, with a mixture of teams present full co-operation within the bunch is very unlikely - have a look at game theory/prisoner's dilemma on Wiki for a decent academic explanation.

gsk82

It looked like there was only one OPQS guy at the front for most of the run in. The BMC riders, among others, should have a good look at themselves.

rick_chasey

afx237vi wrote:

Best bit was Harmon saying Cance had literally killed Sagan on the Paterberg. I had to rewind to see if it was true.

It wasn't true.

Anyone got a clip of this?

Yellow Peril

Rick Chasey wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Best bit was Harmon saying Cance had literally killed Sagan on the Paterberg. I had to rewind to see if it was true.

It wasn't true.

Anyone got a clip of this?

It was the way in which Harmon said it. It makes you wonder who's under his patio

milton50

LeicesterLad wrote:

Will I watch Paris-Roubaix? Of course I will, will It be thrilling? Probably not. Think the Ardennes will be a better watch this year.

I knew everyone would slowly come round to my way of thinking about the Ardennes Classics being better viewing :P .

I bet you AGR and LBL are much better races. Although it's certainly the case that RVV's new route is partly to blame.

verylonglegs

Yellow Peril wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Best bit was Harmon saying Cance had literally killed Sagan on the Paterberg. I had to rewind to see if it was true.

It wasn't true.

Anyone got a clip of this?

It was the way in which Harmon said it. It makes you wonder who's under his patio

I was watching it round my parents place, even my mother looked up when Harmon said it and remarked how crazy he sounded. I suspect he'll be cringing himself if he heard it played back to him.

rick_chasey

Yellow Peril wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Best bit was Harmon saying Cance had literally killed Sagan on the Paterberg. I had to rewind to see if it was true.

It wasn't true.

Anyone got a clip of this?

It was the way in which Harmon said it. It makes you wonder who's under his patio

Still want a clip ;-)

Jez mon

EKIMIKE wrote:

Jez mon wrote:

I still hold out some hope that EBH can fulfil some of his early promise...after all his performance at the worlds suggested he can cope with longer races.

Take your personal feelings out of it for starters. Objectively he's in the mid-2nd tier of cobbled classics riders. Yes his Worlds performance proves he can go the distance, but can he cope with the cobbles?

Meh, to be honest, I should have expanded my post to include the Ardennes classics (and possibly MSR) where I think EBH could have more of a chance. He has won a chipper with some cobbles in it though!

rick_chasey

Rick Chasey wrote:

Yellow Peril wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

Best bit was Harmon saying Cance had literally killed Sagan on the Paterberg. I had to rewind to see if it was true.

It wasn't true.

Anyone got a clip of this?

It was the way in which Harmon said it. It makes you wonder who's under his patio

Still want a clip ;-)

Saw it. "Literally kill him!!"

A pause long enough to think the murder chat is finished... "yeah. Stick the knife in!!"

pb21

afx237vi wrote:

Best bit was Harmon saying Cance had literally killed Sagan on the Paterberg. I had to rewind to see if it was true.

It wasn't true.

Highlight of the race IMO.

ddraver

Some points - a day later...

*Sagan was an idiot, OK yes he's young and foolish and there are a few things I can think of that I did at that age that make me ashamed still. Someone needs to give him a very firm word in his ear!

*Canc was awesome, probably nothing any other team could have done. Fair play to LBE for giving it a damn good shot. Agree Sky need to stop fannying about with EBH now, it's time to give Thomas a crack. I think Stannard was always going to be too much of a man mountain for RVV, his time is next week

*No it wasnt a classic race but FFS there is a spectrum between dull and Best race ever. I spent a thoroughly enjoyable Sunday afternoon on the sofa with some Beer and frites. Saying it was pointless cos it was nt a 10/10 is like complaining about an NFL game that does nt end in a last second, slow motion, Prom Winning, "There goes mah Hero....WATCH him as he goes Touch down like that bit on Varsity Blue. Perhaps some of you need to return to only reading 5 lines about races, 2 weeks after the actual race.

*Nice to hear Harmon and Kelly again...

OK - to Algeria!

slim_boy_fat

Looks like Radioshack are ruining cycling as well.

@inrng: Wasn't just the course, IAM Cycling's Heinrich Haussler said Radioshack's tempo + headwind prevented him from attacking yesterday