Replica Cervelo S5

rolf_f

VTech wrote:

Also, if you sell it and it fails you would be liable and could lose far more than the money you sell it for.

Whilst I agree with you that a frame that lasts one ride is probably not worth spending money on on the off chance that the repair will be the end of its problems, I don't see how him selling it would land him with any liability. He's selling a frame with a crack in it and being straight up about it and he isn't pretending the frame is genuine Cervelo. What anyone does with it after buying it is up to them.

VTech

Rolf F wrote:

VTech wrote:

Also, if you sell it and it fails you would be liable and could lose far more than the money you sell it for.

Whilst I agree with you that a frame that lasts one ride is probably not worth spending money on on the off chance that the repair will be the end of its problems, I don't see how him selling it would land him with any liability. He's selling a frame with a crack in it and being straight up about it and he isn't pretending the frame is genuine Cervelo. What anyone does with it after buying it is up to them.

He is breaking the law though. Selling counterfeit or replica items without consent from the rights owner is illegal and is punishable by fines, and or jail.

Listen, I'm not trying to make trouble here, I'm trying to save him a whole heap of problems.

rolf_f

VTech wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

VTech wrote:

Also, if you sell it and it fails you would be liable and could lose far more than the money you sell it for.

Whilst I agree with you that a frame that lasts one ride is probably not worth spending money on on the off chance that the repair will be the end of its problems, I don't see how him selling it would land him with any liability. He's selling a frame with a crack in it and being straight up about it and he isn't pretending the frame is genuine Cervelo. What anyone does with it after buying it is up to them.

He is breaking the law though. Selling counterfeit or replica items without consent from the rights owner is illegal and is punishable by fines, and or jail.

I can't see how that would bring any liability for failure. He didn't manufacture the counterfeit goods. He openly sold it as it was. He isn't going to be liable if someone hurts themselves riding a frame that he clearly stated failed on it's first use. If you can find anything clear that says that an item sold second hand and honestly described confers a liability on the seller then please post it but I doubt you will - caveat emptor and all that. This isn't the same as running a business pretending to sell genuine products which are in fact fake.

In the real world, he isn't going to get a 'whole heap of problems' from reselling second hand things that are readily available new here from the counterfeiters themselves. If the law can't be bothered to do anything about them it's hardly going to target a teenager honestly selling the frame he bought.

VTech

Again, without wanting to start a war, you are suggesting that law breaking on an open forum is a good thing.
Just because you honestly list an item doesn't then stop it from being illegal if what you are selling is fake or counterfeit.

An example would be this.

Your at a car boot and list your stash if DVD's as "replica and with a few scratches from previous usage but in working order"
Do you think the police will say "it's no problem son, at least you were honest. We won't charge you with any offence as your obviously a nice fella" ???

fevmeister

Hopefully you knowing its not real will come back and plague you when youre telling your mates its legit.....

I think it says a lot about a person if they buy knock off goods.

Lets hope you dont injure anyone else but yourself if your knock off fake packs in going 40mph down a hill

VTech

Exactly. It's complete false economy and mostly made by those who need to be more frugal wih their spending.
It's like going to a car boot and watching people spend £20 on fake dvd's when just a little brain power would tell them to go buy a wifi tv device, get broadband for £6 a month and subscribe to net flicks or similar for £5 a month and get HD movies without breaking the law.

It's barmy.

Strith

Nobody buys dvds at car boot sales anymore, they just download torrents or stream from pps etc for free.

If you're so worried about what this guy is doing, why don't you report him to ebay? Or maybe it's pretty much as Rolf says, nobody in the 'real world' cares.

VTech

I'm not bothered what he is doing myself, I just think it wise to tell people the truth, if this guy is indeed the seller he is open to a whole heap of issues and anyone saying otherwise is potentially assisting him in what is in fact, a crime.
It is legally AND morally wrong.

rolf_f

VTech wrote:

I'm not bothered what he is doing myself, I just think it wise to tell people the truth, if this guy is indeed the seller he is open to a whole heap of issues and anyone saying otherwise is potentially assisting him in what is in fact, a crime.
It is legally AND morally wrong.

'Assisting him in a crime' - you are getting hysterical now. Is your next suggestion going to be that anyone telling him just to get the thing sold is going to be up before the beak facing a five stretch?

I agree with you that these frames shouldn't be sold - but really, the frame should have been siezed during import. That's how you stop this crap from ending up here - not by trying to scare teenagers. The question is what the likes of Cervelo are doing to try and stop this. It's their IPR that is being threatened.

fevmeister

I agree rolf, something tells me cervelo and other relevant manufacturers should be doing more to protect their brand.

Strith

I agree too, but, do you think they care that much? I don't.

I mean I get the impression they're happy to help customers identify what's legit and not, but I don't think they see it as their duty to do any more.

How much would it cost (legaly) for someone like pinarello to try and stop Farsports copying thirs frames? I'm guessing the beancounters know it's just not cost efficient to persue.

VTech

This is the issue, in most cases they can't a the items are not trademarked or protectable.
Copying a design is therefor not illegal in many cases.
It becomes illegal when they put on stickers to forge authenticity.

I'm not sure companies like farsports are doing this as they have a great rep for making high quality items and as we have heard, these replicas are of poor quality so certainly from another source.

I can appreciate that some have suggested I've gone overboard but we have all heard stories where people have been made accountable for what they write on the net so it's only a matter of time before someone posts on a forum that a counterfeit item is good to buy, they then buy it, get charged for buying counterfeit items and then give a statement to the police implicating the person who wrote on the forum saying I was ok to do so.

Some may argue this is stupid and would never happen but that's what everyone says when something stupid happens.

We have laws, and no matter how we argue about them, we must obide by them. We can't buy, sell or promote counterfeit and fake items in the UK.

ooermissus

VTech wrote:

It's only a matter of time before someone posts on a forum that a counterfeit item is good to buy, they then buy it, get charged for buying counterfeit items and then give a statement to the police implicating the person who wrote on the forum saying I was ok to do so.

Some may argue this is stupid and would never happen but that's what everyone says when something stupid happens.

Yep it's stupid. The Crown Prosecution Service is not going to prosecute someone for giving bad advice on the internet (or for pretending they're someone they're not, for that matter).

fevmeister

how have you made 1337 posts in 2 months?

Strith

VTech wrote:

I can appreciate that some have suggested I've gone overboard but we have all heard stories where people have been made accountable for what they write on the net.

Such as? I've not. Like what has been said on this thread or forum?

Strith

VTech wrote:

I'm not sure companies like farsports are doing this as they have a great rep for making high quality items and as we have heard, these replicas are of poor quality so certainly from another source.

And how do you know this for certain?

MountainMonster

Vetch, where do you stand if for example farsports sells on unbranded frames and someone else puts stickers on the frame, thus making it a counterfeit? It's still the same frame of high quality, but with the extra stickers is it now low quality.

Most frames come from the same huge factories. You will always hear of frames breaking, just because the frame has legit stickers does not make it exempt.

VTech

MountainMonster wrote:

Vetch, where do you stand if for example farsports sells on unbranded frames and someone else puts stickers on the frame, thus making it a counterfeit? It's still the same frame of high quality, but with the extra stickers is it now low quality.

Most frames come from the same huge factory.

I dont think its right to copy peoples design, a lot of effort goes into design and then others come in and take the cream from the top.

If someone buys a copied item then puts stickers on it to make it look like something it is not it is copying (by legal definition) until that person tries to sell it as an original at which point it becomes counterfeit (illegal)

I have no problem with people trying to make out they have something they cant afford, they are only kidding themselves. I wouldn't do that as I would either save up or buy cheaper.

On the side of outright counterfeit, I would never suggest anyone go near them as the reality is that you just dont know where the item came from. You have no traceability and as such you cant put yourself at risk for what is a small amount of money.
Several people in this thread have obviously mistook what I have written for me meaning that I am anti asian products which couldn't be further from the truth, personally I would buy Asian carbon over most european as they have super high quality outlets and resources. My issue is having a traceable route to manufacture on an outright counterfeit and my life is worth more than a gamble.
There is of course the legal aspect too and I wouldnt want to be trading in counterfeit goods. I like knowing that when I have purchased something, tax has been paid and society benefits.

Farsports who I used for my wheels as a well respected outlet, they supply a well known UK reseller and have a history of supplying high end kit. I am not saying that they dont make the counterfeits, truth is, I dont know.

Its the "dont know" part that bothers me mostly.

diy

I'm not sure I accept that these products all come from the same factories. I think there are plenty of budget brands who buy generic blanks and spec them up. But that is not the same as saying the high end brands also do it.

Copyright - If you look at someone else's design and copy it - you are breaching their copyright, however they'd have a fight on their hands to prove you had stolen their idea unless there was something unique about it. This is largely why people patent ideas. But just because its not patented does not mean you can copy.

The act of stickering it up is normally a breach of trademark, but could also further enforce the copyright breach if the logos are not trademarks. In the simplest form you have the act of passing off.

Selling it as genuine is fraud. A copy Cervelo S5 is just as problematic with or without stickers. Consumer can buy and to some degree sell. But the problem comes when they use places like BR to sell as by allowing the sale of fakes they expose themselves to a claim. In the grand scheme of things who is mr Cervelo's lawyers going to go after. Monkey with a dodgy frame for sale or a multi-million media outfit.

pride4ever

amaferanga

VTech wrote:

Farsports who I used for my wheels as a well respected outlet, they supply a well known UK reseller and have a history of supplying high end kit. I am not saying that they dont make the counterfeits, truth is, I dont know.

Which UK reseller?

My Farsport rims were ok, certainly not what I'd call high end kit though.

LegendLust

pride4ever wrote:

Yep. And you just added to it

proto

I'd be very surprised if these Chinese outfits Deng Fu, Hong Fu, Flyxi, Miracle trade etc etc make anything. They just buy in and sell it on. You'll find out who makes the stuff they sell.

Have a look here:

http://www.alibaba.com/products/F0/carb ... -8244.html