Replica Cervelo S5
Comments
-
MountainMonster wrote:VTech wrote:ooermissus wrote:you phoned someone up at Cervelo because you're losing an argument on the internet?
I'm far from losing an argument with some nobs on an Internet forum.
Cervelo are testing today in the wind tunnel so a quick call downstairs to ask a question seemed like an easy way to resolve the statement made earlier that these frames are made at the same please and by the same people as the fakes as counterfeit.
After all, I could have proven you right. Only it didnt.
Since when do Cervelo do wind tunnel testing in the UK?
The main tunnels used by Cervélo are the San Diego Air & Space Technology Center Low Speed Wind Tunnel (LWST) and Kirsten Wind Tunnel at the University of Washington Aeronautical Laboratory (UWAL) which are closed circuit and permit full scale testing.
If you are going to make things up, at least do something that is not so easy to check. I watch the Project California video on Youtube a few weeks ago, and they only do their testing in the states.
Ohh dear, again trying to argue with me instead of the real issue, do you guys fancy me ? Im not all that you know !!
Here is the view from my rental, on Sunset.
Living MY dream.0 -
if I could suggest we focus on the debate rather than calling each other liars or criticising their education. I'm actually quite interested to understand just how good these unbranded or counterfeit products actually are.
I would hope we have established that a product which copies the design, but not the trade mark is legally problematic without going in to more detail. I would also hope that we have clarified that a product which uses trade marked logos is also problematic even if it is totally different to the original.
I would also imagine that a product which is constructed as a mold from another is going to have similar if not very similar aerodynamic properties at typical TT speeds.
However, as I understand it, the thing about carbon fiber is how its laid up, how the fibres are positioned and glued together to achieve stiffness, flex and strength. Unless these copies are built the same way or a superior way, surely all you are buying is something that looks the same?
I can see this being less of an issue on wheels, but a frame is surely quite complex?VTech wrote:Ohh dear, again trying to argue with me instead of the real issue, do you guys fancy me ? Im not all that you know !!
Here is the view from my rental, on Sunset.
Check your EXIF data
0 -
diy wrote:if I could suggest we focus on the debate rather than calling each other liars or criticising their education. I'm actually quite interested to understand just how good these unbranded or counterfeit products actually are.
I would hope we have established that a product which copies the design, but not the trade mark is legally problematic without going in to more detail. I would also hope that we have clarified that a product which uses trade marked logos is also problematic even if it is totally different to the original.
I would also imagine that a product which is constructed as a mold from another is going to have similar if not very similar aerodynamic properties at typical TT speeds.
However, as I understand it, the thing about carbon fiber is how its laid up, how the fibres are positioned and glued together to achieve stiffness, flex and strength. Unless these copies are built the same way or a superior way, surely all you are buying is something that looks the same?
I can see this being less of an issue on wheels, but a frame is surely quite complex?
One of the most sensible comments in this thread.
Carbon is cheap and in almost all cases I would guess that the copy frames are good enough to ride without issue but there will be cases (more so from blatant counterfeiters) where only the looks are important and as you suggest, the method of construction is key. How the layers are placed, the resins used, the allowance of the resins to set before the next joint is made etc etc.
Im not a carbon tech myself but it is complex, and with genuine you would hope the care and time is taken to make sure the goods are fit for purpose but I am sure that in some cases (and even if it is only 1 in a million) these guidelines are not adhered too and as such a dangerous item is allowed to be sold.
I have done nothing more in this thread than to try and warn people of dangers yet throughout have had a few people argue with me. I can understand the want to argue with me but I beg you to do it on other threads that carry less importance and not somewhere where others may read and take what some of you say as gospel and put themselves in potential danger. How you any of you feel if something happened to a reader of this thread after buying counterfeit ?Living MY dream.0 -
VTech wrote:When I bought my wheels I had a trail, if anything was wrong I could go back to the manufacturer who are a fully registered, legal entity in China and would have a recourse of action.
Have you checked the terms and conditions? Often, these companies will accept returns but expect you to pay for the postage - which is expensive. And probably means that the item, even if you are lucky enough to get a replacement, ends up costing more than it would have if locally sourced to start with.
And, whilst your rims maybe sound, have you checked the tensioning of the wheels? Just because they run true doesn't mean they are properly tensioned. I've laced up a pair of wheels and managed to get them pretty true but I have no idea yet if I've actually got the tension right. And what about the braking track? Is it just plain carbon or has some actually engineering thought gone into the design?Faster than a tent.......0 -
diy wrote:if I could suggest we focus on the debate rather than calling each other liars or criticising their education. I'm actually quite interested to understand just how good these unbranded or counterfeit products actually are.
I would hope we have established that a product which copies the design, but not the trade mark is legally problematic without going in to more detail. I would also hope that we have clarified that a product which uses trade marked logos is also problematic even if it is totally different to the original.
I would also imagine that a product which is constructed as a mold from another is going to have similar if not very similar aerodynamic properties at typical TT speeds.
However, as I understand it, the thing about carbon fiber is how its laid up, how the fibres are positioned and glued together to achieve stiffness, flex and strength. Unless these copies are built the same way or a superior way, surely all you are buying is something that looks the same?
I can see this being less of an issue on wheels, but a frame is surely quite complex?VTech wrote:Ohh dear, again trying to argue with me instead of the real issue, do you guys fancy me ? Im not all that you know !!
Here is the view from my rental, on Sunset.
Check your EXIF data
Well personally and based on everything I've read across a lot of forums, I would think there is nothing to worry about quality wise.
I personally think from a technical point of view the manufacturers of genuine frames have their preferences they apply during the layup that helps them acheive a frame with charactaristics they want, and I think the consistency of these charactaristics between frames is whats guaranteed when you buy a brand frame. Buy from the likes of FS etc and I still think the frames are fine and solid, but may not be as consistent frame to frame and may be lacking in finish quality a little.
Frames are more complex than rims for sure, but carbon layup isn't rocket science, and the fact the stuff is so cheap to buy says it all really.0 -
[/quote]
Check your EXIF data[/quote]
a time traveller as well
All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....0 -
Rolf F wrote:VTech wrote:When I bought my wheels I had a trail, if anything was wrong I could go back to the manufacturer who are a fully registered, legal entity in China and would have a recourse of action.
Have you checked the terms and conditions? Often, these companies will accept returns but expect you to pay for the postage - which is expensive. And probably means that the item, even if you are lucky enough to get a replacement, ends up costing more than it would have if locally sourced to start with.
And, whilst your rims maybe sound, have you checked the tensioning of the wheels? Just because they run true doesn't mean they are properly tensioned. I've laced up a pair of wheels and managed to get them pretty true but I have no idea yet if I've actually got the tension right. And what about the braking track? Is it just plain carbon or has some actually engineering thought gone into the design?
very good point, neither me or the guy who looked at the carbon has any idea if the wheels are actually put together well, just that the carbon is free from damage.
Im not knocking cheaper carbon copies, I understand people dont want to spend £2000 on a pair of wheels, I actually think its laughable to charge such extortionate costs for bike wheels as I cant see where the cost comes from, as said, carbon is fairly cheap. design wouldnt cost too much but I think its down to sales vs cost rather than purely sales.
Any of the main wheel makers could sell great designs for half what they sell for and maybe double sales but rather sell much higher priced but far less, making roughly the same revenue.
I would not feel uncomfortable buying certain copied designs but to make you guys aware, I have done a lot of different types of work revolving around what ive always done and have been involved in many accident cases and a fatality and although not to do with a bike, it was a cheap imported item that caused a crash and the loss of two teenagers.
if I have come across as persistent it is for this reason. it shocks me at the lengths some companies (if you can call them that) will go to make a few quid.bianchimoon wrote:
Check your EXIF data[/quote]
a time traveller as well[/quote]
Sadly, even I cant manage that, as said in my earlier post, I used a magical device known the world over as a telephone. I am actually sat at Casa VTech in cold damp Statfford Upon Avon, the picture was taken before xmas from my phone to send a pic to my mother, it was meant to make a point that although it had been suggested that I had lied, it wasnt the case and used a picture from my rental in San Diego to prove that.
Sorry if it confused the sceptics.Living MY dream.0 -
0
-
bianchimoon wrote:
Check your EXIF data[/quote]
a time traveller as well[/quote]
Bromsgrove has changed abit since I was last there !0 -
http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2011/08/ ... ted-equal/
Haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if this has already been posted, but it is worth reading.
Won't probably change anyone's opinion but has an interesting and succinct perspective on the things that are important to make a consistent product that meets quality control and safety standards etc0 -
Mccaria wrote:http://www.cyclingtipsblog.com/2011/08/are-all-carbon-bikes-created-equal/
Haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if this has already been posted, but it is worth reading.
Won't probably change anyone's opinion but has an interesting and succinct perspective on the things that are important to make a consistent product that meets quality control and safety standards etc
When I asked Raoul about the difference between brand name and no-name bikes, his first response was “You just don’t know…”
Exactly what ive been saying for days.Living MY dream.0 -
-
VTech wrote:Rolf F wrote:VTech wrote:When I bought my wheels I had a trail, if anything was wrong I could go back to the manufacturer who are a fully registered, legal entity in China and would have a recourse of action.
Have you checked the terms and conditions? Often, these companies will accept returns but expect you to pay for the postage - which is expensive. And probably means that the item, even if you are lucky enough to get a replacement, ends up costing more than it would have if locally sourced to start with.
And, whilst your rims maybe sound, have you checked the tensioning of the wheels? Just because they run true doesn't mean they are properly tensioned. I've laced up a pair of wheels and managed to get them pretty true but I have no idea yet if I've actually got the tension right. And what about the braking track? Is it just plain carbon or has some actually engineering thought gone into the design?
very good point, neither me or the guy who looked at the carbon has any idea if the wheels are actually put together well, just that the carbon is free from damage.
Im not knocking cheaper carbon copies, I understand people dont want to spend £2000 on a pair of wheels, I actually think its laughable to charge such extortionate costs for bike wheels as I cant see where the cost comes from, as said, carbon is fairly cheap. design wouldnt cost too much but I think its down to sales vs cost rather than purely sales.
Any of the main wheel makers could sell great designs for half what they sell for and maybe double sales but rather sell much higher priced but far less, making roughly the same revenue.
I would not feel uncomfortable buying certain copied designs but to make you guys aware, I have done a lot of different types of work revolving around what ive always done and have been involved in many accident cases and a fatality and although not to do with a bike, it was a cheap imported item that caused a crash and the loss of two teenagers.
if I have come across as persistent it is for this reason. it shocks me at the lengths some companies (if you can call them that) will go to make a few quid.bianchimoon wrote:
Check your EXIF data
a time traveller as well[/quote]
Sadly, even I cant manage that, as said in my earlier post, I used a magical device known the world over as a telephone. I am actually sat at Casa VTech in cold damp Statfford Upon Avon, the picture was taken before xmas from my phone to send a pic to my mother, it was meant to make a point that although it had been suggested that I had lied, it wasnt the case and used a picture from my rental in San Diego to prove that.
Sorry if it confused the sceptics.[/quote]
Before Christmas ? The picture was taken on 12/4/2012 !! Vtech - the man with more posts than miles cycled :roll:0 -
[/quote]Before Christmas ? The picture was taken on 12/4/2012 !! Vtech - the man with more posts than miles cycled :roll:[/quote]
was it taken on fantasy island? All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....0 -
Before Christmas ? The picture was taken on 12/4/2012 !! Vtech - the man with more posts than miles cycled :roll:[/quote]bianchimoon wrote:
was it taken on fantasy island?[/quote]
Either that or Cloud Cookoo Land0 -
Faking pictures on the internet, whilst trying to shoot people down for buying fake goods.
Oh the irony.....someones gotta do it eh.0 -
Or his phone is set to US standard so 12/04/12 is actually 4th December ?
Cant believe I'm actually defending Vtech.......... it'll cost him a bottle of Lafite.0 -
Mccaria wrote:Or his phone is set to US standard so 12/04/12 is actually 4th December ?
Cant believe I'm actually defending Vtech.......... it'll cost him a bottle of Lafite.
Dont waste your efforts, these guys are loons
And dont worry about defending me, im protecting vulnerable people from buying counterfeit whilst these guys defend it, there is nothing to worry about fighting for whats right.
These guys are jealous, I can see no other reasoning to their constant attacks
Even suggesting I faked a photo Its quite laughable. I travel the world with work, its not like I am saying im a multi millionaire who does it for fun ! Its work. Living MY dream.0 -
There are a few different types of copy frames around though...
Some may come from the same (possibly open) mould as bikes sold as a branded frame (I think Ribble, DeRosa and possibly plant-x are examples of this). They may possibly have different QA processes applied to them, or they may not, they may have different carbon etc. used. How would you tell? The higher end brands I'm pretty sure would claim that the moulds they use are exclusive to their use, but I suppose a dodgy factory might produce a few more S5's from the genuine mould, but how long would they retain the business if they do this?
Many of the copy frames of higher end brands are not the same as the original bike and do not come from the same mould. They may look like a Cervelo (or whatever) but look closely and there are a lot more differences than carbon layup. They often have different bottom brackets, headsets etc. Put a genuine frame and this sort of copy side by side and you see a lot of differences. The copy frame may be a good frame in its own right, but it is not a Cervelo.
Then there are the potentially really scary ones. These are the genuine frames that may have been rejected by the QA process applied to the original bike (Cervelo for instance), and which should have been destroyed but which may have been sold on. They may be safe (the QA problem may have been cosmetic), but they may have had some sort of structural issue which makes them an accident waiting to happen. When painted up they are very hard to tell from the real thing.0 -
VTech wrote:Mccaria wrote:Or his phone is set to US standard so 12/04/12 is actually 4th December ?
Cant believe I'm actually defending Vtech.......... it'll cost him a bottle of Lafite.
Dont waste your efforts, these guys are loons
And dont worry about defending me, im protecting vulnerable people from buying counterfeit whilst these guys defend it, there is nothing to worry about fighting for whats right.
These guys are jealous, I can see no other reasoning to their constant attacks
Even suggesting I faked a photo Its quite laughable. I travel the world with work, its not like I am saying im a multi millionaire who does it for fun ! Its work.
You posted a photo saying 'Here is the view from my rental'
If you'd said 'This was the view from my hotel last time I was in the states' then it would have been believable.
I actually agree with alot of what you have said on this thread. I've dealt with many chinese factories and if they can find a way to save a few pence they will, wether it's cutting a few cms off a handbag strap length to loosing a layer of carbon or using cheap resin on a bike frame. Nearly all 'proper' companies will have thier own people within production making sure that specs are adhered to rather than corners being cut to save a few pence. Anyone who thinks any different is definately not talking from first hand experience.0 -
Yes that was exactly my point when I described the different attitude to culture/business.0
-
Great. So we'll agreed there's little difference between an unbranded copy and a copy with fake decals stuck on. Glad this is sorted out at last. 8) 8)0
-
ooermissus wrote:Great. So we'll agreed there's little difference between an unbranded copy and a copy with fake decals stuck on. Glad this is sorted out at last. 8) 8)
No, none of us have agreed that.the answer has been summed up very well earlier, maybe only a page earlier.
The answer is "we don't know" it's an unknown entity with no route back to whoever made it.Living MY dream.0 -
Let me get this right, VTech.VTech wrote:Many of you are saying it comes from the exact same factory but I've just got off the phone with Micheal Peters of Cervelo who assures me that only their frames are made within their process and plant build.VTech wrote:Cervelo are testing today in the wind tunnel so a quick call downstairs to ask a question seemed like an easy way to resolve the statement made earlier that these frames are made at the same please and by the same people as the fakes as counterfeit.VTech wrote:Sadly, even I cant manage that, as said in my earlier post, I used a magical device known the world over as a telephone. I am actually sat at Casa VTech in cold damp Statfford Upon Avon,
So, you have Peters in your wind tunnel dungeon in Stratford?
Although I agree with most that you've said in this thread, you make it virtually impossible to believe anything you say.0 -
Flasher wrote:Let me get this right, VTech.VTech wrote:Many of you are saying it comes from the exact same factory but I've just got off the phone with Micheal Peters of Cervelo who assures me that only their frames are made within their process and plant build.VTech wrote:Cervelo are testing today in the wind tunnel so a quick call downstairs to ask a question seemed like an easy way to resolve the statement made earlier that these frames are made at the same please and by the same people as the fakes as counterfeit.VTech wrote:Sadly, even I cant manage that, as said in my earlier post, I used a magical device known the world over as a telephone. I am actually sat at Casa VTech in cold damp Statfford Upon Avon,
So, you have Peters in your wind tunnel dungeon in Stratford?
Although I agree with most that you've said in this thread, you make it virtually impossible to believe anything you say.
Lol,
No, I've been in Stratford all day I'm afraid, my comment was based on me using the telephone to speak with the guy rather than actually speaking with him direct.
The picture I posted was to prove the fact I work at the test facility which was then desputed as being taken at the wrong date until finally a cleaver reader of this thread realised that whilst in the USA the date is differently set out than in the UK.Living MY dream.0 -
I think if some dude wants to save some money and pretend he,s riding an expensive bike then he should be allowed to do so. If he,s very unlucky and aforementioned cheap copy decides to go defunct mid ride we should then be allowed to start a thread on the dangers of buying cheap copies and hopefully show pictures of his bruised and battered body/ego. I dont exactly defend counterfeiting but when the original brand is so over priced the company cant be surprised when people opt for the cheaper and inevitably less stable choice. Personally I wouldn't be seen dead on a Cervelo and so I definitely wouldn't be seen literally dead on a copy of one lol.
Heres Mo with your next frame, comes with a box of noodles and an extra hard helmet...enjoy.the deeper the section the deeper the pleasure.0 -
pride4ever wrote:Personally I wouldn't be seen dead on a Cervelo
Why?I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles0 -
VTech wrote:Flasher wrote:Let me get this right, VTech.VTech wrote:Many of you are saying it comes from the exact same factory but I've just got off the phone with Micheal Peters of Cervelo who assures me that only their frames are made within their process and plant build.VTech wrote:Cervelo are testing today in the wind tunnel so a quick call downstairs to ask a question seemed like an easy way to resolve the statement made earlier that these frames are made at the same please and by the same people as the fakes as counterfeit.VTech wrote:Sadly, even I cant manage that, as said in my earlier post, I used a magical device known the world over as a telephone. I am actually sat at Casa VTech in cold damp Statfford Upon Avon,
So, you have Peters in your wind tunnel dungeon in Stratford?
Although I agree with most that you've said in this thread, you make it virtually impossible to believe anything you say.
Lol,
No, I've been in Stratford all day I'm afraid, my comment was based on me using the telephone to speak with the guy rather than actually speaking with him direct.
The picture I posted was to prove the fact I work at the test facility which was then desputed as being taken at the wrong date until finally a cleaver reader of this thread realised that whilst in the USA the date is differently set out than in the UK.
Some of us know who you are and where you work. Your company website says nothing about Formula One, Wind Tunnel Testing, Carbon body shops or anything else you go on about. The fact that under the 'About us' section it lists your credentials it fails to mention anything about your formula one associations. Seeing as you're in the business of 'pimping' cars (for want of a better expression) I'd have thought that promoting your affiliations to Formula One would have been a major plus. Your little unit in Bromsgrove looks very different to sunset boulevard. You talk about people being jealous of you! I actually feel quite sorry for you, you obviously don't ride a bike very well but try and prove you're better than alot of cyclists on here by posting made up b*llsh*t. Maybe you do make a bit of money and maybe you do visit your distributors and agents abroad but you are a very strange character as far as I can see.0 -
What an odd reply, again aimed at abuse rather than the topic in question.
I've spoken too and met a few people in here and would never deny any of the work I do, tommorow I'm ruffing it in a truck to remove an additive. As I have clearly stated on the forum, I'm a freelance software guy and have only commented on a certain type of work I'm involved in if it were to do with a topic I'm involved in.
If there was a topic about a truck software and I knew the answer I would reply. Just like I have in the carbon thread.
I've also never mentioned that I am rich, again only people looking to make an issue of it have done that, as I stated when I first joined the forum, I'm an overweight guy from the midlands who has bought a bike to lose weight.
You will notice that all of the points I have raised have been done to help others whilst yours and your cronies have been done to cause abuse. What I can't understand is why you don't use that effort for good or to assist forum member, you will feel far better for it.Living MY dream.0 -
