Sky and David Walsh

ddraver

dish_dash wrote:

@DD - were the DMs any different from the public stuff?

Well there was a bit about a conversation with Fran Millar she'd had but that she could nt tell anyone about (where have i heard that before), then a bit more about how we re close minded cos we like to base our opinions in fact and reason and that we were prejudiced and insulting becasue we didnt agree with her

funnily enough, I really do have new stuff - both 'pro' and 'anti' - but am sworn to confidentiality by both sides

Fran Millar contacted me and gave me the opportunity to ask some questions - very much appreciated but promised her I would not disclose

in contrast have heard contradictory stuff from inside Sky/BC - but people of course don't want to lose their jobs

so for me it's far from simple - genuinely would like to see something decisive one way or the other - perhaps wrong to expect that from

your forum

anyway please tell your friends I was delighted to have the opportunity to make their acquaintance )

meh....

above_the_cows

inkyfingers wrote:

Typical woman. Flutters her eyelashes at you, promises a lot but then before you get to see the goods she sods off, leaving you feeling deeply unsatisfied.

Hey! I'm sure you were only joking but there's no need to descend to smearing an entire gender. Her making a fool of herself and crying wolf has nothing to do with her being a woman.

mroli

I dunno, sometimes I do think that people on here are a "little" intolerant of a view other than theirs. I wish Micron had stuck around because if we all just agree - ie with the major consensus view, then this isn't a forum, it is a back slapping exercise. One of the reasons FF is good value is that he has his own values that he backs up in spite of a lot of criticism from other people. LL loves JTL despite the fact that we REALLY don't know how good he is. Rick loves Boonen and all things Belgian and wears red trousers. Millions would say he's wrong, but he doesn't think so.

I think calling Micron part of the Twaliban isn't clever - its like all the tedious Clenbutador jokes and I'd like her to have stuck around to carry on discussing her point of view without thinking that she's being victimised. Back-slapping because we've "seen her off" doesn't do the debate any good and doesn't portray forum members in a great light.

Saying that we've had a good chat about stuff and just disagree is far more realistic, polite and "right" imho....

I know that there were holes in her logic and her attitude is frustrating, but just going "YOU DON'T HAVE PROOF, YOU'RE MAKING THIS ALL UP!!!!" rather than being patient... Well, I don't know. Bof.

Richmond Racer

inkyfingers wrote:

Typical woman. Flutters her eyelashes at you, promises a lot but then before you get to see the goods she sods off, leaving you feeling deeply unsatisfied.

*administers kick in the goolies for that one*

dish_dash

So Fran Millar is her source on her suspicions about Sky? rrrrright...

Her response to Pross was telling, this is about egos. It's got nothing to do with making cycling a cleaner sport.

slim_boy_fat

mroli wrote:

I dunno, sometimes I do think that people on here are a "little" intolerant of a view other than theirs. I wish Micron had stuck around because if we all just agree - ie with the major consensus view, then this isn't a forum, it is a back slapping exercise. One of the reasons FF is good value is that he has his own values that he backs up in spite of a lot of criticism from other people. LL loves JTL despite the fact that we REALLY don't know how good he is. Rick loves Boonen and all things Belgian and wears red trousers. Millions would say he's wrong, but he doesn't think so.

I think calling Micron part of the Twaliban isn't clever - its like all the tedious Clenbutador jokes and I'd like her to have stuck around to carry on discussing her point of view without thinking that she's being victimised. Back-slapping because we've "seen her off" doesn't do the debate any good and doesn't portray forum members in a great light.

Saying that we've had a good chat about stuff and just disagree is far more realistic, polite and "right" imho....

I know that there were holes in her logic and her attitude is frustrating, but just going "YOU DON'T HAVE PROOF, YOU'RE MAKING THIS ALL UP!!!!" rather than being patient... Well, I don't know. Bof.

You make some good points but is there really any point in debating with someone who is prepared to pull a stunt like that?

Richmond Racer

Thank God its Tour of Oman next week with the big boys coming out to play. Then Algarve end of next week...and then...cobbles!

iainf72

Said it before and I'll say it again, if you keep dragging up Geert L as evidence of Sky evilness you're truly clueless.

ddraver

Have to disagree Mroli - AS long as views are backed up with evidence then I'm perfectly accepting of different ones to mine. I do think that if you re prepared to repeatedly smear a cycling team (and like it or not @festinagirl is ina position of some responsibility and does hold some political sway) then you need to have more than baseless suspicions. The debate started about Paul Kimmage remember. She was totally unable to provide any. Making something up was very foolish of her, that was never going to work.

It is not insulting, predudicial or offensive to ask someone for evidence. Further it is childish to claim that someone is insulting or sexist becasue they disagree with you. What it usually suggests is that someone has nt got a reply to the points the other side has made. I think think this is what happened today....

It's a shame she has elected to leave (I didnt particularly see her staying long though), but she came of her own free will and she is able to leave at it as well.

ddraver

iainf72 wrote:

Said it before and I'll say it again, if you keep dragging up Geert L as evidence of Sky evilness you're truly clueless.

Would nt have expected you to say that iain, goes to show i'm happy to be proved wrong!

RichN95.

iainf72 wrote:

Said it before and I'll say it again, if you keep dragging up Geert L as evidence of Sky evilness you're truly clueless.

What about Fabio Bartolucci, Sky's other foreign doctor last year? He gets branded by some, including micron, as a doping doctor solely because he was in a hotel in the Giro that got raided 12 years ago (along with 80 others). His recent history of working for Bouygues Telecom, FdJ and Cervelo as well as training Nicole Cooke never gets considered.

ratsbeyfus

mroli wrote:

I dunno, sometimes I do think that people on here are a "little" intolerant of a view other than theirs. I wish Micron had stuck around because if we all just agree - ie with the major consensus view, then this isn't a forum, it is a back slapping exercise. One of the reasons FF is good value is that he has his own values that he backs up in spite of a lot of criticism from other people. LL loves JTL despite the fact that we REALLY don't know how good he is. Rick loves Boonen and all things Belgian and wears red trousers. Millions would say he's wrong, but he doesn't think so.

I think calling Micron part of the Twaliban isn't clever - its like all the tedious Clenbutador jokes and I'd like her to have stuck around to carry on discussing her point of view without thinking that she's being victimised. Back-slapping because we've "seen her off" doesn't do the debate any good and doesn't portray forum members in a great light.

Saying that we've had a good chat about stuff and just disagree is far more realistic, polite and "right" imho....

I know that there were holes in her logic and her attitude is frustrating, but just going "YOU DON'T HAVE PROOF, YOU'RE MAKING THIS ALL UP!!!!" rather than being patient... Well, I don't know. Bof.

Yeah... it really would be better to have opinions like Micron's in the forum. I wish Bikingbernie would reappear ... I never felt that he would lie or fabricate stuff in order to win an argument.

Apologies if the 'twaliban' phrase is annoying... the twaliban were pretty toothless in the flesh - how about the telly-tubby-ban?

Pross

dish_dash wrote:

So Fran Millar is her source on her suspicions about Sky? rrrrright...

Her response to Pross was telling, this is about egos. It's got nothing to do with making cycling a cleaner sport.

I was a bit confused by that comment and couldn't work out if it was sarcastic or genuine. If genuine then it is disappointing as whether she does it in the right way or not I had assumed she was genuinely trying to campaign against doping rather than just being another anti-Sky voice. I had really hoped for at least a strong defence of her beliefs even without any actual evidence and some reasons why Sky are worthy of more attention by doping cynics than other teams. As I've said before I don't get Twitter really and having not used it much I don't understand how she has achieved the status of some kind of guru on these matters. Shame really as I really do like being challenged to reconsider by own views.

dish_dash

Pross - Her style is quick, punchy and witty. Perfect for twitter. I can see how she achieved her status...

Mroli, I hear you. And at least LL and Frenchie are clear where they stand and back it up. But I got none of that sense of focus from Micron today. There was no engagement with anything of substance, just sidestepping and name calling. It was like being in Monty Python's argument sketch...

EKIMIKE

mroli - well said! It is looking a lot like a back slapping exercise now she's gone IMO. She had some very good points and showed up a lot of people here on knowledge. I definitely learned a few things.

slim boy fat - debating is full of stunts. It's as much about psychology as it is facts. It's just... that was a particularly poor stunt.

I think she has a point with some people here needing to open their minds! However there is a huge irony that she prefers a medium which, if anything, promotes a closure of the mind by limiting it to 140 character spasms. It obviously suits her though.

Anyway, with the back slapping and self-aggrandising.

mroli

@ddraver - yeah, but she no doubt has been the victim of "some" abuse previously and I can quite clearly see on this thread evidence of people calling her a "liar", of people saying "its because she was a woman" and using generally insulting terms (which may just be because you don't get "tone" on the internet). I know its a forum and people should MTFU - but the reason i'm on this forum is because generally people are rational and reasonable, if there are misunderstandings people try and work them out and because opinions are different and its nice to hear other people's.

Micron thinks that Kimmage's opinions and views are right (sweeping generalisation). Generally BR forum disagrees. But Kimmage has done sterling work in the past. Just to dismiss him (through a conduit speaking on the basis of what they have heard) is a bit harsh. Micron is, like it or not, well connected and well educated on the general subjects that we are talking about. I don't agree with her, but just yelling at her until she f*(ks off isn't going to change her mind - its like swearing at the driver who has overtaken you too closely.

I agree that she hasn't covered herself in glory - but she came on here in a number of 1 and gave it a go...

TheBigBean

I'm late to this discussion, but from what I've seen, this Micron lady is a very eloquent poster. For that reason alone she should be encouraged to post in the sea of emoticons that is the internet.

LeicesterLad

I havn't always seen eye to eye with Festina...but must admit feeling a little sorry for her as she's been bombarded last few days. I know she's no innocent BUT I have to give her credit - whenever i've run into her she's always stood her ground and debated with me, calmly and with dignity - she is also pretty knowledgeable, whatever her views on Sky. I hold much more disdain for the likes of UCI_Overlord and Digger_Forum, especially the latter who is pretty much just a mouthy know-nothing aggressive gobshite - they never stick around for the debates or argue their points either. You could abuse and rant at Festina untill blue in the face and she will always hear you out and never block you on twitter!

blazing_saddles

RichN95 wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Said it before and I'll say it again, if you keep dragging up Geert L as evidence of Sky evilness you're truly clueless.

What about Fabio Bartolucci, Sky's other foreign doctor last year? He gets branded by some, including micron, as a doping doctor solely because he was in a hotel in the Giro that got raided 12 years ago (along with 80 others). His recent history of working for Bouygues Telecom, FdJ and Cervelo as well as training Nicole Cooke never gets considered.

Got considered by the Asylum, since that sole link turned up via one loon's post after a visit to "Dopology".
After that, their considered opinion quickly became.............................that Nicole Cooke must be a doper.
Quelle surprise.

RichN95.

Blazing Saddles wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Said it before and I'll say it again, if you keep dragging up Geert L as evidence of Sky evilness you're truly clueless.

What about Fabio Bartolucci, Sky's other foreign doctor last year? He gets branded by some, including micron, as a doping doctor solely because he was in a hotel in the Giro that got raided 12 years ago (along with 80 others). His recent history of working for Bouygues Telecom, FdJ and Cervelo as well as training Nicole Cooke never gets considered.

Got considered by the Asylum, since that sole link turned up via one loon's post after a visit to "Dopology".
After that, their considered opinion quickly became.............................that Nicole Cooke must be a doper.
Quelle surprise.

Yeah, I saw all that.

"Why does she need to go to a doctor?"
"To fix her knee"
"And he's an expert is he?"
"Yes he is"
"Cyclists only go to doctors for doping"

ddraver

Well ok LL, Mike and Mroli, but we saw none of that yesterday/today...(and she's still going)

blazing_saddles

mroli wrote:

I dunno, sometimes I do think that people on here are a "little" intolerant of a view other than theirs. I wish Micron had stuck around because if we all just agree - ie with the major consensus view, then this isn't a forum, it is a back slapping exercise. One of the reasons FF is good value is that he has his own values that he backs up in spite of a lot of criticism from other people. LL loves JTL despite the fact that we REALLY don't know how good he is. Rick loves Boonen and all things Belgian and wears red trousers. Millions would say he's wrong, but he doesn't think so.

I think calling Micron part of the Twaliban isn't clever - its like all the tedious Clenbutador jokes and I'd like her to have stuck around to carry on discussing her point of view without thinking that she's being victimised. Back-slapping because we've "seen her off" doesn't do the debate any good and doesn't portray forum members in a great light.

Saying that we've had a good chat about stuff and just disagree is far more realistic, polite and "right" imho....

I know that there were holes in her logic and her attitude is frustrating, but just going "YOU DON'T HAVE PROOF, YOU'RE MAKING THIS ALL UP!!!!" rather than being patient... Well, I don't know. Bof.

I found today's thread reading the most constructive of any on this emotive subject.
I even gave Micron the edge in the moral high ground stakes..............right up until her closing post..

Ironically, having taken the debate, the self-congratulatory back slapping that followed is to me, exactly the same behaviour that earned the Twitter Taliban their nickname.

ddraver

Well we do enjoy a laugh here...may that never change!

She's back at it already

@festinagirl - that train more race less is spreading like wildfire in the peloton is a cause for concern...

ratsbeyfus

I feel like I've been told off by the village elders... sorry. :oops:

mroli

I'm defo not a village elder!!!

I think we all want the same thing - clean, good, competitive, interesting bike racing and then we can argue about the important things - shoes, panache, style, wheelsucking, sprints v time trials v team time trials v mountains v uphill v downhill finished. We just all see different ways of getting there.

alanp23

I'd give her kudos for posting on here and it did feel a little at times like it was her against the world.

I'd like her to return and debate a little more in here. It did add to the colour of my day. I still dont agree with her opinions but I think once she found her feet and relaxed into it a bit more, she might get a bit more stuck into the rough and tumble that is forum life.

-1 for all the name dropping though.

ddraver

One more before bed - Th eonly time I can think of this forum (ProRace in particular) ever getting properly aggressive is in the face of people who are deliberately trolling threads to cause arguments. Yes I ll name and shame, the 3 most recent examples being Biking Bernie, Trev the Rev and the everlasting dennisn.

Debate/threads can be robust but they are always carried out based on fact and reality, in an intelligent reasonable way and with the minimum of name calling.

Admittedly Frenchie is a law unto himself, but still we all still value his contribution.

Pross

I notice on Twitter that she mentions sexist comments being made about her on here. Am I missing something or have posts been deleted as I can't see anything. I do hope she'll return as it is always useful to have someone to take the opposite view point as a forum in full agreement is just boring. That's why, despite what he may think, I enjoy Frenchie's contributions when he stands his ground ( less so when he resorts to the defensive 'you know nothing I'm ignoring you' approach though).

Macaloon

ddraver wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Said it before and I'll say it again, if you keep dragging up Geert L as evidence of Sky evilness you're truly clueless.

Would nt have expected you to say that iain, goes to show i'm happy to be proved wrong!

If Iain has his cryptic hat on, this means that there's much stronger evidence of evil available to the clued-up

RichN95.

alanp23 wrote:

I'd give her kudos for posting on here and it did feel a little at times like it was her against the world.

I'd like her to return and debate a little more in here. It did add to the colour of my day. I still dont agree with her opinions but I think once she found her feet and relaxed into it a bit more, she might get a bit more stuck into the rough and tumble that is forum life.

-1 for all the name dropping though.

She should come back on an evening. Despite my little dig about the CCN, there were various points I would have liked to expand on and discuss (doctors, TRC, testing, other things), but I was looking at it on a smartphone so was limited by how much I could discuss.