Contadors Can Of Worms
Comments
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Cracking questionRick Chasey wrote:Jerry.
Do you think this year's Tour was cleaner than this year's Vuelta?0 -
Nick Fitt wrote:
Cracking questionRick Chasey wrote:Jerry.
Do you think this year's Tour was cleaner than this year's Vuelta?
Not really an answer, is it?0 -
The passport is a clear improvement on the arbitrary 50% rule (which really gave an advantage to those riders with a naturally lower hct level). I thought it was just a stop gap measure whilst they worked on a test for EPO.
One Tour vs Vuelta, I thought the numbers for the Tour were analysed as being within physiologically reasonable boundaries by Ross Tucker et al. I haven't seen any analysis on the Vuelta so I guess it is mostly prejudice against spanish riders, but then they have done more than a little to create that prejudice.0 -
nathancom wrote:The passport is a clear improvement on the arbitrary 50% rule (which really gave an advantage to those riders with a naturally lower hct level). I thought it was just a stop gap measure whilst they worked on a test for EPO.
One Tour vs Vuelta, I thought the numbers for the Tour were analysed as being within physiologically reasonable boundaries by Ross Tucker et al. I haven't seen any analysis on the Vuelta so I guess it is mostly prejudice against spanish riders, but then they have done more than a little to create that prejudice.
Strcitly speaking they came up with a test for EPO back in 2000. Accuracy's still not terrrific, though0 -
Hell, who knows whether the Vuelta was cleaner than the Tour?? Impossible question.
Considering the Testers are way behind the curve then I should imagine the methods which may have worked at the Tour, would also work at the Vuelta. I think Cycling is caught in a world where Team Docs et al who assist the Teams are always looking for the next big undetectable thing. There was news last year of there being a new EPO and Steroid from China which was undetectable. So who knows who's got what? I guess that depends on the Team's connections with these slightly suspect Pharmaceutical companies.
There may be new drugs which have not reached our ears yet?
Also there should be consideration to who has also got connections with WADA or the UCI. Maybe other Teams who have their own arrangements.
I think the truth of the Hematocrit test was not to assist in fair play and good sport but the Health of the riders as before this test came in; Cycling was getting like an episode of Miss Marple. This is a point which is missed by us lot as we're so obsessed with Fair Play. The health of the riders may be one of the key issues of why Cycling started getting a kicking from the anti doping lot.
As far as a New Age of clean sport then we'll be waiting a long time. This is not going to end soon. Let's just be glad the riders don't catch Trains to cheat like they used to.
Jerry
(Don't think I'm someone on this as I was a lowly Roady doing local events; I just read a bit and listen to the old Roadies on the Club Ride.)“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance you must keep moving”- Albert Einstein
"You can't ride the Tour de France on mineral water."
-Jacques Anquetil0 -
So how does that attitude affect the way you watch races?
I dunno about you, but doping or not doping, as long as it's not slapping me in the face, I get too sucked in by what's happening on the road to really care untill a few hours afterwards.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:So how does that attitude affect the way you watch races?
I dunno about you, but doping or not doping, as long as it's not slapping me in the face, I get too sucked in by what's happening on the road to really care untill a few hours afterwards.
When it's Contador V Valverde it slaps me in the face.
I can give many riders the benefit of the doubt, but those two? Meh.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Really? Do you not get sucked into the action?
I've only had one slap-in-the-face moment and that was Ricco on the Aspin.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Really? Do you not get sucked into the action?
I've only had one slap-in-the-face moment and that was Ricco on the Aspin.
No, I turned it off, disgusted.
Enjoyed the Giro and Tour far more.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
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Rick Chasey wrote:Jeez.
I just like the racing. It's all semi-ficticious anyway.
That's the wrestling mindset. Though then again, I guess I cast Contador and Valverde in the villains corner, so maybe the wrestling mindset is my own...
I need a bit of authenticity in my cycling, which is why I get pissed off at those that keep making me doubt other riders. That's the issue I have with unrepentant dopers.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
it's when you get the same riding on successive days and they are flying off the front like it's the first day of the mountains - and then you have valverde booming on the flat bunch finish on the last day... that was a slap in the face for me
clenbutador and valverde are the worst ones"I get paid to make other people suffer on my wheel, how good is that"
--Jens Voight0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:Jeez.
I just like the racing. It's all semi-ficticious anyway.
That's the wrestling mindset. Though then again, I guess I cast Contador and Valverde in the villains corner, so maybe the wrestling mindset is my own...
Professional wrestlings most mysterious hold is on it's audience. - unknown
Sorry, couldn't resist throwing that quote in here.0 -
dennisn wrote:Professional wrestlings most mysterious hold is on it's audience. - unknown
Sorry, couldn't resist throwing that quote in here.
Excellent quote. Horrific apostrophe abuse, but an excellent quote :-)Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:dennisn wrote:Professional wrestlings most mysterious hold is on it's audience. - unknown
Sorry, couldn't resist throwing that quote in here.
Excellent quote. Horrific apostrophe abuse, but an excellent quote :-)
I see that now. I know I'm bad at this punctuation thing but I do try.0 -
You are just channeling your inner greengrocer.dennisn wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:dennisn wrote:Professional wrestlings most mysterious hold is on it's audience. - unknown
Sorry, couldn't resist throwing that quote in here.
Excellent quote. Horrific apostrophe abuse, but an excellent quote :-)
I see that now. I know I'm bad at this punctuation thing but I do try.0 -
I guess so.
I'm not saying I want cycling with drugs, but I'll be f*cked if I'm gonna let it ruin it for me.
I'm always surprised others do.
When I see people go on and on and on about doping or whatever, I just wonder what goes through their head when they actually watch racing. Do you guys stop? If so, I'm genuinely curious to know what you're doing on a cycling forum!!
We all want it to be believable. It makes what we're seeing even more exciting. But I feel some people on here go out of their way to find stuff to ruin it all for themselves.
And, for all the doping aside, you've got to admit Contador's can do some outstanding rides. He livens races up on the road.0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:dennisn wrote:Professional wrestlings most mysterious hold is on it's audience. - unknown
Sorry, couldn't resist throwing that quote in here.
Excellent quote. Horrific apostrophe abuse, but an excellent quote :-)
I find it particularly amusing that the Dutch don't get it at all and the commentators actually commentate on it like its a serious sport!\
FFS at least 50% of Wrestling is the 2 commentators, Coach Republican America and Major NRA4EVR Awesome (or whoever they are) going SHEESH! Oh...GOD NO! MOTHER OR GAAAAAD every time anything happens. That is what gets a drunk ddraver watching at 2am in the morning!We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:I guess so.
I'm not saying I want cycling with drugs, but I'll be f*cked if I'm gonna let it ruin it for me.
I'm always surprised others do.
When I see people go on and on and on about doping or whatever, I just wonder what goes through their head when they actually watch racing. Do you guys stop? If so, I'm genuinely curious to know what you're doing on a cycling forum!!
We all want it to be believable. It makes what we're seeing even more exciting. But I feel some people on here go out of their way to find stuff to ruin it all for themselves.
And, for all the doping aside, you've got to admit Contador's can do some outstanding rides. He livens races up on the road.
I stopped between 1998 and Floyd's letter. Wasn't interested in watching dopers. Yes, a little naive pre '98, but we didn't get a whole lot of cycling on TV back then. I don't have "willing suspension of disbelief" enabled when I watch cycling. And yes, it can spoil it. But it's essentially the same as watching any sport in partisan mode. I don't ever want to watch Chelsea winning a game, for instance, though I'd quite happily watch them get beaten. I could watch Valencia V Villareal and enjoy the football, because I'm not partisan in that match. I can quite happily watch Valverde get his arse handed to him on a plate, but I cant stomach watching him win.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
ddraver wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:dennisn wrote:Professional wrestlings most mysterious hold is on it's audience. - unknown
Sorry, couldn't resist throwing that quote in here.
Excellent quote. Horrific apostrophe abuse, but an excellent quote :-)
I find it particularly amusing that the Dutch don't get it at all and the commentators actually commentate on it like its a serious sport!\
FFS at least 50% of Wrestling is the 2 commentators, Coach Republican America and Major NRA4EVR Awesome (or whoever they are) going SHEESH! Oh...GOD NO! MOTHER OR GAAAAAD every time anything happens. That is what gets a drunk ddraver watching at 2am in the morning!
Yeah, but Dutch commentators are a bit mental in most sports. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XsZkCFoqSBsWarning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:I guess so.
I'm not saying I want cycling with drugs, but I'll be f*cked if I'm gonna let it ruin it for me.
I'm always surprised others do.
When I see people go on and on and on about doping or whatever, I just wonder what goes through their head when they actually watch racing. Do you guys stop? If so, I'm genuinely curious to know what you're doing on a cycling forum!!
We all want it to be believable. It makes what we're seeing even more exciting. But I feel some people on here go out of their way to find stuff to ruin it all for themselves.
And, for all the doping aside, you've got to admit Contador's can do some outstanding rides. He livens races up on the road.
I stopped between 1998 and Floyd's letter. Wasn't interested in watching dopers. Yes, a little naive pre '98, but we didn't get a whole lot of cycling on TV back then. I don't have "willing suspension of disbelief" enabled when I watch cycling. And yes, it can spoil it. But it's essentially the same as watching any sport in partisan mode. I don't ever want to watch Chelsea winning a game, for instance, though I'd quite happily watch them get beaten. I could watch Valencia V Villareal and enjoy the football, because I'm not partisan in that match. I can quite happily watch Valverde get his ars* handed to him on a plate, but I cant stomach watching him win.
I'm a little different than you. For me it's still a believable sport and the REAL thing(if you will). It's not as if they a faking anything, like punches in wrestling. Drugs or no drugs, right or wrong, they are still engaged in a real battle to see who gets to the top first or crosses that line ahead of the rest. It's not predetermined who will win the stage or who will get blown out the back on a climb or who will gain or lose time.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:I guess so.
I'm not saying I want cycling with drugs, but I'll be f*cked if I'm gonna let it ruin it for me.
I'm always surprised others do.
When I see people go on and on and on about doping or whatever, I just wonder what goes through their head when they actually watch racing. Do you guys stop? If so, I'm genuinely curious to know what you're doing on a cycling forum!!
We all want it to be believable. It makes what we're seeing even more exciting. But I feel some people on here go out of their way to find stuff to ruin it all for themselves.
And, for all the doping aside, you've got to admit Contador's can do some outstanding rides. He livens races up on the road.
It's amazing how exciting a doper can make cycling!0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:I guess so.
I'm not saying I want cycling with drugs, but I'll be f*cked if I'm gonna let it ruin it for me.
I'm always surprised others do.
When I see people go on and on and on about doping or whatever, I just wonder what goes through their head when they actually watch racing. Do you guys stop? If so, I'm genuinely curious to know what you're doing on a cycling forum!!
We all want it to be believable. It makes what we're seeing even more exciting. But I feel some people on here go out of their way to find stuff to ruin it all for themselves.
And, for all the doping aside, you've got to admit Contador's can do some outstanding rides. He livens races up on the road.
Ahhh, the voice of reason!0 -
We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
jerry3571 wrote:Hell, who knows whether the Vuelta was cleaner than the Tour?? Impossible question.
Considering the Testers are way behind the curve then I should imagine the methods which may have worked at the Tour, would also work at the Vuelta. I think Cycling is caught in a world where Team Docs et al who assist the Teams are always looking for the next big undetectable thing. There was news last year of there being a new EPO and Steroid from China which was undetectable. So who knows who's got what? I guess that depends on the Team's connections with these slightly suspect Pharmaceutical companies.
There may be new drugs which have not reached our ears yet?
Also there should be consideration to who has also got connections with WADA or the UCI. Maybe other Teams who have their own arrangements.
I think the truth of the Hematocrit test was not to assist in fair play and good sport but the Health of the riders as before this test came in; Cycling was getting like an episode of Miss Marple. This is a point which is missed by us lot as we're so obsessed with Fair Play. The health of the riders may be one of the key issues of why Cycling started getting a kicking from the anti doping lot.
As far as a New Age of clean sport then we'll be waiting a long time. This is not going to end soon. Let's just be glad the riders don't catch Trains to cheat like they used to.
Jerry
(Don't think I'm someone on this as I was a lowly Roady doing local events; I just read a bit and listen to the old Roadies on the Club Ride.)
Cracking answer, 'sports science' will always be ahead of the drug prevention guys. Stands to reason, you cant ban something if you don't know it exists.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:And, for all the doping aside, you've got to admit Contador's can do some outstanding rides. He livens races up on the road.
And that's the exciting spectacle that everyone wants, not just from AC but all teams and riders. It would be nice if everyone moved on from drugs but some people find it too addictive.0 -
Nick Fitt wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:And, for all the doping aside, you've got to admit Contador's can do some outstanding rides. He livens races up on the road.
And that's the exciting spectacle that everyone wants, not just from AC but all teams and riders. It would be nice if everyone moved on from drugs but some people find it too addictive.
It keeps on coming back to this for some people. David Millar was right when he said that as well as all the other factions in cycling, fans have to share some responsibility for a doping culture in the sport.0 -
Nick Fitt wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:And, for all the doping aside, you've got to admit Contador's can do some outstanding rides. He livens races up on the road.
And that's the exciting spectacle that everyone wants, not just from AC but all teams and riders. Who cares if they dope as long as we re entertained, Who cares if the best rider wins or not as long as they have big brown cow* eyes
*genuinely no link intended.
FTFY tooWe're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Sadly that may well be the case, but not necessarily - by now there is an understanding of what kind of anatomical and physiological effects a PED must produce to make a difference: haematocrit as a proxy for EPO use, for instance, is an early (and admittedly imperfect) example.Nick Fitt wrote:'sports science' will always be ahead of the drug prevention guys. Stands to reason, you cant ban something if you don't know it exists.
I would guess it's never going to be able to catch everything, but hopefully the bio passport will develop to the stage where the Ashendens of this world will be able to look at it and say "whoa, his whatsamatocrit just jumped 2.1% after the rest day, something's up".
The other hope, quite independent of this, is that omerta will lose its power, and lots of riders will decide that they're fed up with being beaten by cheats, and grass each other up big time. :-)0
