Contadors Can Of Worms

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  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    derbygrimpeur wrote:
    I don't think anyone's really suggesting that a rider thinks "the fans want me to dope, so I'll do it", but indirectly, it contributes.

    I'm betting fan influence on the riders is minimal. Pro sports athletes play the game because they love it and they love the money it brings them. I don't see fans entering their thoughts at all when they decide to dope. They simply want
    to be better than the rest, make more money than the rest, and win the titles. Of course they ALL say that it's "all about the fans" but I have my doubts. I read a quote the other day that went something like this - In years gone by athletes were loyal to the name on the front of the jersey, now any loyalty is strictly about the name on the back.
    And maybe, just maybe that's the way it should be. After all the "name" on the front will use you up and toss you out without a thought. Winning is everything in pro sports and that, in itself, is all it takes to encourage cheating, doping, etc.
  • Nick Fitt
    Nick Fitt Posts: 381
    dennisn wrote:
    derbygrimpeur wrote:
    I don't think anyone's really suggesting that a rider thinks "the fans want me to dope, so I'll do it", but indirectly, it contributes.

    I'm betting fan influence on the riders is minimal. Pro sports athletes play the game because they love it and they love the money it brings them. I don't see fans entering their thoughts at all when they decide to dope. They simply want
    to be better than the rest, make more money than the rest, and win the titles. Of course they ALL say that it's "all about the fans" but I have my doubts. I read a quote the other day that went something like this - In years gone by athletes were loyal to the name on the front of the jersey, now any loyalty is strictly about the name on the back.
    And maybe, just maybe that's the way it should be. After all the "name" on the front will use you up and toss you out without a thought. Winning is everything in pro sports and that, in itself, is all it takes to encourage cheating, doping, etc.
    Thats the truth. Also, as one does it, the others feel obliged to do it to win, that is clearly reported and accepted. Two factors contribute to doping 1. feeling they need to to compete and sponsor pressure, fan pressure if any is minimal to nil in my minds eye
  • mike6
    mike6 Posts: 1,199
    Nick Fitt wrote:
    mike6 wrote:
    Nick Fitt wrote:
    I'm sorry but it is utter **** to suggest that fans should share some responsibility, how? Millar is laughably wrong, sponsors yes, I hear Nibali is on 3.5 mn Euros per year, that kind of money is tempting a win at any cost mentality. Its all too often the bridesmaids that dope, look at Millar himself; never the bride at the WTT until he doped.

    At this moment in time, Contador is deemed clean, he cheated and he got banned, the circumstances may well be laughable but tough, it is what it is, get over it.

    And he is an exciting rider. IF the next 3 GTs in 2013 are clean, then you should still expect exciting riding, it is not the dope that makes a man think sharply, time his attacks. Its the dope that allows the speed, recovery etc.

    Using your logic above, it was the dope that made him fast and able to recover, so it was the dope that made him, or the other so called "exciting" riders....exciting.
    Lets see how exciting he is in 2013 when, hopefully, he can no longer dope.

    I noticed in the Vuelta that he can still attack on the climbs but he cant sustain it anymore, he has to sit down after about 15 seconds and the others just ride back up to him. He will simply have to wait for his main rivals to have a mechanical before he can put some time into them. LOL.

    Absolutely! As they are all clean now, it should be a great season eh! Who do you think his "main rivals" are?

    LOL :roll:

    You mean you have no idea???? LOL.
  • Anonymous
    Anonymous Posts: 79,667
    dennisn wrote:
    Of course they ALL say that it's "all about the fans" but I have my doubts. I read a quote the other day that went something like this - In years gone by athletes were loyal to the name on the front of the jersey, now any loyalty is strictly about the name on the back.
    And maybe, just maybe that's the way it should be.

    Sorry for being a thicko (one of those days). Can you explain what it means in this context?
  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    coriordan wrote:
    dennisn wrote:
    Of course they ALL say that it's "all about the fans" but I have my doubts. I read a quote the other day that went something like this - In years gone by athletes were loyal to the name on the front of the jersey, now any loyalty is strictly about the name on the back.
    And maybe, just maybe that's the way it should be.

    Sorry for being a thicko (one of those days). Can you explain what it means in this context?

    I think I was just commenting on my theory of athletes and why some cheat / dope. They do what they do for themselves. Not you or I or any "fan" or team loyalty. It's all about selfishness, and I for one think there is some virtue in being selfish. Hope that helps a bit. :wink:
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,391
    name of the team on the front of the Jersey,

    carlos-tevez-manchester-city-825x1024.jpg

    Name of the athlete on the back...

    Tevez-manchester-city.jpg
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Paul 8v
    Paul 8v Posts: 5,458
    Nice hat!
    Road
    MTB
    NEW Cross
    Track/Grass Track/Winter bike
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,691
    Fans are SFA to do with doping, other than the fact that if it wasn't popular there'd be a lot less money floating about for doping in the first place.
    _
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,326
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Fans are SFA to do with doping, other than the fact that if it wasn't popular there'd be a lot less money floating about for doping in the first place.

    A bit naive possibly Rick. If fans - from the hardcore committed to the occasional mountain TdF stage watchers - had turned their TVs off en masse then sponsors wouldn't have an audience and teams would know that it was doping that was spitting in the soup, not grassing up a fellow rider. How many teams would even think of hiring Valverde, Vino, Contador or Basso if it wasn't for the fact that fans are for the large part happy to see them ride?
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  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 72,691
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Fans are SFA to do with doping, other than the fact that if it wasn't popular there'd be a lot less money floating about for doping in the first place.

    A bit naive possibly Rick. If fans - from the hardcore committed to the occasional mountain TdF stage watchers - had turned their TVs off en masse then sponsors wouldn't have an audience and teams would know that it was doping that was spitting in the soup, not grassing up a fellow rider. How many teams would even think of hiring Valverde, Vino, Contador or Basso if it wasn't for the fact that fans are for the large part happy to see them ride?

    Strikes me as blaming the victim tbh.

    The problem isn't that fans want to watch bike racing on the road. The problem is athletes are cheating (the fans), not that fans are watching it.
    _
  • dougzz
    dougzz Posts: 1,833
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Strikes me as blaming the victim tbh.
    The problem isn't that fans want to watch bike racing on the road. The problem is athletes are cheating (the fans), not that fans are watching it.
    You've made many comments along the lines of enough with the doping talk who cares, so you obviously don't mind be cheated, or do I have it wrong.
  • nathancom
    nathancom Posts: 1,567
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Fans are SFA to do with doping, other than the fact that if it wasn't popular there'd be a lot less money floating about for doping in the first place.

    A bit naive possibly Rick. If fans - from the hardcore committed to the occasional mountain TdF stage watchers - had turned their TVs off en masse then sponsors wouldn't have an audience and teams would know that it was doping that was spitting in the soup, not grassing up a fellow rider. How many teams would even think of hiring Valverde, Vino, Contador or Basso if it wasn't for the fact that fans are for the large part happy to see them ride?

    Strikes me as blaming the victim tbh.

    The problem isn't that fans want to watch bike racing on the road. The problem is athletes are cheating (the fans), not that fans are watching it.
    It isn't about attributing blame to fans, merely tracing causation...
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 13,326
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Fans are SFA to do with doping, other than the fact that if it wasn't popular there'd be a lot less money floating about for doping in the first place.

    A bit naive possibly Rick. If fans - from the hardcore committed to the occasional mountain TdF stage watchers - had turned their TVs off en masse then sponsors wouldn't have an audience and teams would know that it was doping that was spitting in the soup, not grassing up a fellow rider. How many teams would even think of hiring Valverde, Vino, Contador or Basso if it wasn't for the fact that fans are for the large part happy to see them ride?

    Strikes me as blaming the victim tbh.

    The problem isn't that fans want to watch bike racing on the road. The problem is athletes are cheating (the fans), not that fans are watching it.

    But put that in the context of everyone going on about how brilliant the Vuelta was this year. Those that disagreed were asked if they were even cycling fans, told that irrespective of doping Contador livened up a race, that unless doping was slapping you in the face it could be ignored etc. Some fans clearly aren't being cheated, they're getting what they pay for - exciting racing, just don't make the blood bags too obvious. As someone else said, it's not really a question of blame, it's a question of tracing the causes - and fan acceptance of doping is one of them.
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  • dennisn
    dennisn Posts: 10,601
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    No tA Doctor wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    Fans are SFA to do with doping, other than the fact that if it wasn't popular there'd be a lot less money floating about for doping in the first place.

    A bit naive possibly Rick. If fans - from the hardcore committed to the occasional mountain TdF stage watchers - had turned their TVs off en masse then sponsors wouldn't have an audience and teams would know that it was doping that was spitting in the soup, not grassing up a fellow rider. How many teams would even think of hiring Valverde, Vino, Contador or Basso if it wasn't for the fact that fans are for the large part happy to see them ride?

    Strikes me as blaming the victim tbh.

    The problem isn't that fans want to watch bike racing on the road. The problem is athletes are cheating (the fans), not that fans are watching it.

    I can't buy into the idea of fans being victims. Victims of what? Sounds as if you're saying that the fans are too stupid to understand any of all this, and that LA and that crowd are the only people with brains. The rest of us are simply morons who can't decide anything for themselves. Fans have brains too, although like lots of people they don't seem to use them on occasion. Then again neither do the riders. It does seem really odd though that more than a few cycling fans, on this forum, seem to be saying that they feel angry and / or violated(so to speak). I don't understand that at all. Why would you be down on yourself about what some pro athlete did or is doing?
  • dave_1
    dave_1 Posts: 9,512
    I've just read Euskatel are flogging team bus to pay salaries. Dire but no surprise given the profile the sport's been enjoying recently.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NKBacb2V ... ata_player
  • derbygrimpeur
    derbygrimpeur Posts: 822
    dennisn wrote:
    derbygrimpeur wrote:
    I don't think anyone's really suggesting that a rider thinks "the fans want me to dope, so I'll do it", but indirectly, it contributes.

    I'm betting fan influence on the riders is minimal. Pro sports athletes play the game because they love it and they love the money it brings them. I don't see fans entering their thoughts at all when they decide to dope. They simply want
    to be better than the rest, make more money than the rest, and win the titles. Of course they ALL say that it's "all about the fans" but I have my doubts. I read a quote the other day that went something like this - In years gone by athletes were loyal to the name on the front of the jersey, now any loyalty is strictly about the name on the back.
    And maybe, just maybe that's the way it should be. After all the "name" on the front will use you up and toss you out without a thought. Winning is everything in pro sports and that, in itself, is all it takes to encourage cheating, doping, etc.

    You managed to completely miss my point, well done :roll:

    I said that fans influence was indirect, i.e. that athletes do not directly consider fans when they dope, but that fans' desire for exciting racing, harder stages etc. put pressure on race organisers to up the ante, which in turn makes doping more likely. That's over siplifying things, but follow the chain, fans are in there.

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