Contadors Can Of Worms
Comments
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LeicesterLad wrote:Richmond Racer wrote:bipedal wrote:Oleg not helping the Saxo world tour cause, Riis must be delighted by his owner's contribution to the doping debate
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tinkov- ... xaggerated
Young Kittel's response on Twitter is very amusing. Great use of 3 wise monkeyemoticons
Kittel does realise there is still a chance he could face a ban doesn't he?
I like Kittel, but he can't be the sharpest tool - anybody with strong anti-doping views would surely try to stay away from needles and blood removal, no?
To be honest, for all but the most ardent Bertie fan-boys and girls, the only effect this is having is to make Tinkoff look an absolute d*ckhead by sneering at another team and its riders, not just once but continuing today. Personally I hope that it does add to the counts against Saxo getting the licence.
Things are changing in the peloton. All the signs are that is in a cleaner peloton - not totally clean, but cleaner. Some of the riders, including the younger ones, have had enough with all the fall-out, and are standing up a bit. I think this is gonna come as a massive shock to old-school riders and team managers who've been used to no one spitting in the soup. Next season's going to be interesting for many reasons.0 -
Nick Fitt wrote:I'm sorry but it is utter **** to suggest that fans should share some responsibility, how? Millar is laughably wrong, sponsors yes, I hear Nibali is on 3.5 mn Euros per year, that kind of money is tempting a win at any cost mentality. Its all too often the bridesmaids that dope, look at Millar himself; never the bride at the WTT until he doped.
At this moment in time, Contador is deemed clean, he cheated and he got banned, the circumstances may well be laughable but tough, it is what it is, get over it.
And he is an exciting rider. IF the next 3 GTs in 2013 are clean, then you should still expect exciting riding, it is not the dope that makes a man think sharply, time his attacks. Its the dope that allows the speed, recovery etc.
How many fans say 'I dont care if xx is doping, at least he's exciting'
Think about it.0 -
frenchfighter wrote:Kittel still on one. Maybe he should get his own house in order. Maybe he is the clever one though and all his vocal anti-doping talk is a smoke screen.
Ps. I like the guy. He is just upset as Tinkoff said the reality which is: 'who knows anyone in Argos'? They have Kittel and Degnekolb but both will likely leave to bigger money.
But which team had more wins in 2012? No contest: http://inrng.com/2012/11/2012-race-statistics/0 -
We've been over this in depth on another thread.Contador is the Greatest0
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frenchfighter wrote:We've been over this in depth on another thread.
Yes, I know, but that doesn't make it irrelevant... had Kittel not gotten ill at the Tour they would have had a much more high profile year, as it is they dominated the Vuelta sprints, but because their sprinters are German not British Argos's stellar performances in 2012 get dismissed0 -
frenchfighter wrote:From Russia with love for the haters....
This sounds very like the Armstrong answer to criticism. Everyone who questioned was a hater.--
Burls Ti Tourer for Tarmac, Saracen aluminium full suss for trails0 -
LeicesterLad wrote:inkyfingers wrote:Looking at the Saxo-Tinkoff squad, with the exception of Contador and Nuyens, it's hardly star studded is it.
bit unfair on Nico Roche and Roman Kreuziger there...
Sorry, I looked at their website and those two aren't on there (assume because they are not "officially" part of the team until 2013.
The squad is still lacking in big winners. If Contador had a bad year or got injured or ill then where are the wins going to come from? Nuyens would need to rediscover his 2011 form, Kreuziger has a couple of decent wins under his belt but he's hardly prolific and Roche needs to re-adjust his aims, which to be fair by joining Saxo he probably is already doing...i.e. he can hopefully focus more on one day races and short stage races, as he'll obviously be riding for Bertie in the GTs."I have a lovely photo of a Camargue horse but will not post it now" (Frenchfighter - July 2013)0 -
Nick Nuyens is riding for Garmin next year. Saxo have replaced him with Matti Breschel.inkyfingers wrote:LeicesterLad wrote:inkyfingers wrote:Looking at the Saxo-Tinkoff squad, with the exception of Contador and Nuyens, it's hardly star studded is it.
bit unfair on Nico Roche and Roman Kreuziger there...
Sorry, I looked at their website and those two aren't on there (assume because they are not "officially" part of the team until 2013.
The squad is still lacking in big winners. If Contador had a bad year or got injured or ill then where are the wins going to come from? Nuyens would need to rediscover his 2011 form, Kreuziger has a couple of decent wins under his belt but he's hardly prolific and Roche needs to re-adjust his aims, which to be fair by joining Saxo he probably is already doing...i.e. he can hopefully focus more on one day races and short stage races, as he'll obviously be riding for Bertie in the GTs.Twitter: @RichN950 -
inkyfingers wrote:LeicesterLad wrote:inkyfingers wrote:Looking at the Saxo-Tinkoff squad, with the exception of Contador and Nuyens, it's hardly star studded is it.
bit unfair on Nico Roche and Roman Kreuziger there...
Isnt really though is it...If Roche was Spanish (or whoever), we would nt ever mention him! Kreuzinger is only good for the races that no one else gives a monkeys about...He's the Stoke City of cycling, good for stable mid table obscurity but never good or bad enough to be worthy of any attention.We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Nick Fitt wrote:I'm sorry but it is utter **** to suggest that fans should share some responsibility, how?
Excellent point. No one is out there holding any rider down while someone else sticks a needle in him. Plus I don't see any of the caught dopers crying that "it was the fans, they made me do it". Now I suppose that if you're the type that just has to blame yourself and feel guilty because of what others do then load yourself up with guilt because there certainly is enough in sport to go around. Remember, it's all your fault.0 -
Wrong, both of you.
You can certainly argue about the extent of fans' influence. But professional sport stands or falls by its fanbase: if the fans want fake spectacle, that's what they'll get - have you ever watched WWE?0 -
bompington wrote:Wrong, both of you.
You can certainly argue about the extent of fans' influence. But professional sport stands or falls by its fanbase: if the fans want fake spectacle, that's what they'll get - have you ever watched WWE?
No one is saying YOU can't feel guilty about whatever YOU want. You can even go to confession for all this guilt. Have at it. I, and many others, won't be joining you.0 -
bompington wrote:Wrong, both of you.
You can certainly argue about the extent of fans' influence. But professional sport stands or falls by its fanbase: if the fans want fake spectacle, that's what they'll get - have you ever watched WWE?
More nonsense. Professional sport stands or falls by its sponsors, get real. Pro cycling is free to watch. Not anywhere ever have I seen a fan saying I want speed even if you dope!0 -
Richmond Racer wrote:Nick Fitt wrote:I'm sorry but it is utter **** to suggest that fans should share some responsibility, how? Millar is laughably wrong, sponsors yes, I hear Nibali is on 3.5 mn Euros per year, that kind of money is tempting a win at any cost mentality. Its all too often the bridesmaids that dope, look at Millar himself; never the bride at the WTT until he doped.
At this moment in time, Contador is deemed clean, he cheated and he got banned, the circumstances may well be laughable but tough, it is what it is, get over it.
And he is an exciting rider. IF the next 3 GTs in 2013 are clean, then you should still expect exciting riding, it is not the dope that makes a man think sharply, time his attacks. Its the dope that allows the speed, recovery etc.
How many fans say 'I dont care if xx is doping, at least he's exciting'
Think about it.
And you think the riders hear this? And then I suppose they think ooh goody, if I dope Richmond racer will think Im dead speedy!
But how about a rider being offered 7 figure bonuses for placing/winning major races?
What's more likely to pay for the motivation to dope and the dope.0 -
No one is talking about guilt except you. Are you a lapsed Catholic or something?dennisn wrote:bompington wrote:Wrong, both of you.
You can certainly argue about the extent of fans' influence. But professional sport stands or falls by its fanbase: if the fans want fake spectacle, that's what they'll get - have you ever watched WWE?
No one is saying YOU can't feel guilty about whatever YOU want. You can even go to confession for all this guilt. Have at it. I, and many others, won't be joining you.
Fans clearly do have a tremendous effect on how and what sport is played. Fans have demanded faster/stronger performers and have voted with their feet across a wide range of sports. This displays itself in many different ways from doping to the growth of new shorter forms of already established sports, eg T20 cricket. Sports follow the money and the money ultimately comes from fans.
Should fans feel guilty for wanting more? No, most just make a choice based on what is the most entertaining but the sportsmen and the administrators have a responsibility to put on a show that is authentic. Once that sense of authenticity is lost the sport is likely to be damaged , just look at the effects on Italian football of Calciopoli and subsequent scandals. The sports administrators have a duty to balance the desire of the fanbase against the good of the sport over the long term and this is a duty UCI clearly failed in over the course of the last 20 years.
Obviously within a fanbase there are a multitude of different perspectives and a good section want a clearly authentic experience and so you hear voices on this forum virulently opposed to doping and the fakery it creates in the mountains of the GT.0 -
Thisnathancom wrote:
How about Clenbertielol for a small improvement?symo wrote:Sorry just thought of this.
Clenbertierol
Had to share, will get me coat now.+++++++++++++++++++++
we are the proud, the few, Descendents.
Panama - finally putting a nail in the economic theory of the trickle down effect.0 -
nathancom wrote:
No one is talking about guilt except you.dennisn wrote:bompington wrote:Wrong, both of you.
You can certainly argue about the extent of fans' influence. But professional sport stands or falls by its fanbase: if the fans want fake spectacle, that's what they'll get - have you ever watched WWE?
No one is saying YOU can't feel guilty about whatever YOU want. You can even go to confession for all this guilt. Have at it. I, and many others, won't be joining you.
Obviously within a fanbase there are a multitude of different perspectives and a good section want a clearly authentic experience and so you hear voices on this forum virulently opposed to doping and the fakery it creates in the mountains of the GT.
OK, maybe guilt was a bit strong of a word to use. Just seemed like "bompington" was arguing that fans were somehow to blame(guilt) for the transgressions of the players. LA and all the rest have never asked me whether I wanted them to dope, they never asked my permission, they never told me about it, never asked how I felt about it, never gave me a thought. They did it for themselves. Not for you or I. Even if THEY claimed they did it for you and I, I would have to say that I'm still not feeling responsible in ANY way as it was their choice. They made this decision to try and take the easy way out and it turned out to be not so easy after all. I don't feel like I have any part in any blame.0 -
I didn't see him say anything of the sort but carry on with your strawman antics.dennisn wrote:nathancom wrote:
No one is talking about guilt except you.dennisn wrote:bompington wrote:Wrong, both of you.
You can certainly argue about the extent of fans' influence. But professional sport stands or falls by its fanbase: if the fans want fake spectacle, that's what they'll get - have you ever watched WWE?
No one is saying YOU can't feel guilty about whatever YOU want. You can even go to confession for all this guilt. Have at it. I, and many others, won't be joining you.
Obviously within a fanbase there are a multitude of different perspectives and a good section want a clearly authentic experience and so you hear voices on this forum virulently opposed to doping and the fakery it creates in the mountains of the GT.
OK, maybe guilt was a bit strong of a word to use. Just seemed like "bompington" was arguing that fans were somehow to blame(guilt) for the transgressions of the players. LA and all the rest have never asked me whether I wanted them to dope, they never asked my permission, they never told me about it, never asked how I felt about it, never gave me a thought. They did it for themselves. Not for you or I. Even if THEY claimed they did it for you and I, I would have to say that I'm still not feeling responsible in ANY way as it was their choice. They made this decision to try and take the easy way out and it turned out to be not so easy after all. I don't feel like I have any part in any blame.
He saidYou can certainly argue about the extent of fans' influence. But professional sport stands or falls by its fanbase: if the fans want fake spectacle, that's what they'll get - have you ever watched WWE?
That just says fans have an influence on how sports are enacted...a valid statement.0 -
nathancom wrote:
I didn't see him say anything of the sort but carry on with your strawman antics.dennisn wrote:nathancom wrote:
No one is talking about guilt except you.dennisn wrote:bompington wrote:Wrong, both of you.
You can certainly argue about the extent of fans' influence. But professional sport stands or falls by its fanbase: if the fans want fake spectacle, that's what they'll get - have you ever watched WWE?
No one is saying YOU can't feel guilty about whatever YOU want. You can even go to confession for all this guilt. Have at it. I, and many others, won't be joining you.
Obviously within a fanbase there are a multitude of different perspectives and a good section want a clearly authentic experience and so you hear voices on this forum virulently opposed to doping and the fakery it creates in the mountains of the GT.
OK, maybe guilt was a bit strong of a word to use. Just seemed like "bompington" was arguing that fans were somehow to blame(guilt) for the transgressions of the players. LA and all the rest have never asked me whether I wanted them to dope, they never asked my permission, they never told me about it, never asked how I felt about it, never gave me a thought. They did it for themselves. Not for you or I. Even if THEY claimed they did it for you and I, I would have to say that I'm still not feeling responsible in ANY way as it was their choice. They made this decision to try and take the easy way out and it turned out to be not so easy after all. I don't feel like I have any part in any blame.
He saidYou can certainly argue about the extent of fans' influence. But professional sport stands or falls by its fanbase: if the fans want fake spectacle, that's what they'll get - have you ever watched WWE?
That just says fans have an influence on how sports are enacted...a valid statement.
Yes, a very valid statement, but as far as I'm concerned, there is an inference in his writing that we are using them instead of the other way around. These people don't do these things for you or I, they do them for what they can get from you and I. As for the WWE comparison, pro cycling is very different. It's not pre-scripted, no one is telling riders who will or will not dope, the WIN is actually contested and not pre-ordained, the rivalries are not faked, winning is the only thing that matters(right or wrong). So no, to WWE comparisons.0 -
Unless you are Vino and have a spare 100k you don't know what to do with.0
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Its contadors birthday today, 1982 he was born, the same year that Airplane 2 came out -
McCroskey: And I can sum it all up in just one word: courage, dedication, daring, pride, pluck, spirit, grit, mettle, and G-U-T-S, *guts*. Why, Ted Striker's got more guts in his little finger than most of us have in our large intestine, including the colon!
eek, makes you feel old. Like him or loathe him he is exciting to watch. Happy birthday El Pistolero.
The dissenter is every human being at those moments of his life when he resigns
momentarily from the herd and thinks for himself.0 -
No, "bompington" wasn't suggesting that. But I was suggesting that doping, like everything in life, is not just the result of an individual making a rational decision: the culture and environment you are in greatly affects the decisions you make.dennisn wrote:OK, maybe guilt was a bit strong of a word to use. Just seemed like "bompington" was arguing that fans were somehow to blame(guilt) for the transgressions of the players. LA and all the rest have never asked me whether I wanted them to dope, they never asked my permission, they never told me about it, never asked how I felt about it, never gave me a thought. They did it for themselves. Not for you or I. Even if THEY claimed they did it for you and I, I would have to say that I'm still not feeling responsible in ANY way as it was their choice. They made this decision to try and take the easy way out and it turned out to be not so easy after all. I don't feel like I have any part in any blame.
In sport, the fans are part of the culture. As I said, you can argue to what extent that is true, but I don't think you can deny that it is a factor. Personally I would say that, in the long term, it is quite significant: and the argument that it's sponsors not fans who determine things is valid up to a point - but look at them dropping LA in a hurry when he suddenly wasn't the poster boy any more.
If the fans cheer for dopers, and demonstrate that they think doping is fine, it encourages riders to dope.
If the fans turn their backs on dopers, then (to some extent) sponsors will, and so teams as well. When doping culture is so deeply engrained in cycling, this might not happen very fast, but if there was a tipping point from what appears to be a complete acceptance in some countries (sería injusto hablar de ningún país en particular) to general disapproval, I think it could make quite a difference.
As for the spectacular logical leap, if logical is the right word, to me or anyone else as guilt-ridden lapsed catholics, I am simply too open-mouthed to comment.0 -
Who are sponsors targetting? Generally, it's fans, right? So whilst sponsors might ultimately spend their £££, this wouldn't happen if their target audience turned their backs.
Fans expecting exciting riding, big mountain stages etc. does indirectly affect whether riders dope. Race organisers plan their events to create a spectacle for FANS. Look at the Giro and Vuelta. Some riders are surely faced with a decision of dope, or be dropped.0 -
derbygrimpeur wrote:Who are sponsors targetting? Generally, it's fans, right?
Maybe not. Take USPS for example. I doubt whether they were marketing themselves to "fans". I'm thinking that they wanted name recognition on a much larger scale than cycling's fan base alone. Same thing with, oh say, Saxo Bank.
They know that their name, on the jerseys and in the news, will reach much, much more than just the fans. Take Greg Lemonds old team(name escapes me) that made children's clothing. I don't believe they were thinking that "fans" would become their main customers. No, they were thinking of the publicity of a front page photo of Greg maybe winning the TDF , wearing their name on his jersey, and holding one of his kids in his arms. And it happened. Everyone, not just fans, saw that photo and that was what they were hoping for. I think you'll find this in many sports. Main sponsors with really no ties to the sport and / or team they sponsor(i.e. Home Depot / NASCAR) and while some fans may be swayed to go to Home Depot because they saw the name splashed all over a race car, Home Depot was, in reality, thinking way beyond just the "fan" base.
Now I will admit that there are some sponsors with a direct connection to cycling(Campy, Shimano, etc.) but I believe that even they aren't limiting their thinking to simply the fan base of you and I. No, they want the world to think Campy when cycling or riding a bike is even mentioned. You and I will buy one or the other of many different bike parts and they already know that. They want the rest of the world to do the same.0 -
Nick Fitt wrote:I'm sorry but it is utter **** to suggest that fans should share some responsibility, how? Millar is laughably wrong, sponsors yes, I hear Nibali is on 3.5 mn Euros per year, that kind of money is tempting a win at any cost mentality. Its all too often the bridesmaids that dope, look at Millar himself; never the bride at the WTT until he doped.
At this moment in time, Contador is deemed clean, he cheated and he got banned, the circumstances may well be laughable but tough, it is what it is, get over it.
And he is an exciting rider. IF the next 3 GTs in 2013 are clean, then you should still expect exciting riding, it is not the dope that makes a man think sharply, time his attacks. Its the dope that allows the speed, recovery etc.
Using your logic above, it was the dope that made him fast and able to recover, so it was the dope that made him, or the other so called "exciting" riders....exciting.
Lets see how exciting he is in 2013 when, hopefully, he can no longer dope.
I noticed in the Vuelta that he can still attack on the climbs but he cant sustain it anymore, he has to sit down after about 15 seconds and the others just ride back up to him. He will simply have to wait for his main rivals to have a mechanical before he can put some time into them. LOL.0 -
mike6 wrote:Nick Fitt wrote:I'm sorry but it is utter **** to suggest that fans should share some responsibility, how? Millar is laughably wrong, sponsors yes, I hear Nibali is on 3.5 mn Euros per year, that kind of money is tempting a win at any cost mentality. Its all too often the bridesmaids that dope, look at Millar himself; never the bride at the WTT until he doped.
At this moment in time, Contador is deemed clean, he cheated and he got banned, the circumstances may well be laughable but tough, it is what it is, get over it.
And he is an exciting rider. IF the next 3 GTs in 2013 are clean, then you should still expect exciting riding, it is not the dope that makes a man think sharply, time his attacks. Its the dope that allows the speed, recovery etc.
Using your logic above, it was the dope that made him fast and able to recover, so it was the dope that made him, or the other so called "exciting" riders....exciting.
Lets see how exciting he is in 2013 when, hopefully, he can no longer dope.
I think it's been pretty well proven that using drugs can make you faster and able to recover better. That's not even in question, is it? And if you're doped and riding away from everyone else, well, that tends to be a bit exciting. I guess I'm not sure what you're saying?
As for "...2013 when, hopefully, he can no longer dope." I think you're living in a dream world, so to speak. Cheating to get an edge would seem to be part of many peoples human nature.0 -
ddraver wrote:Even I'm surprised this thread is still going....
It's showing incredible recovery times....Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
dennisn wrote:derbygrimpeur wrote:Who are sponsors targetting? Generally, it's fans, right?
Maybe not. Take USPS for example. I doubt whether they were marketing themselves to "fans". I'm thinking that they wanted name recognition on a much larger scale than cycling's fan base alone. Same thing with, oh say, Saxo Bank.
They know that their name, on the jerseys and in the news, will reach much, much more than just the fans. Take Greg Lemonds old team(name escapes me) that made children's clothing. I don't believe they were thinking that "fans" would become their main customers. No, they were thinking of the publicity of a front page photo of Greg maybe winning the TDF , wearing their name on his jersey, and holding one of his kids in his arms. And it happened. Everyone, not just fans, saw that photo and that was what they were hoping for. I think you'll find this in many sports. Main sponsors with really no ties to the sport and / or team they sponsor(i.e. Home Depot / NASCAR) and while some fans may be swayed to go to Home Depot because they saw the name splashed all over a race car, Home Depot was, in reality, thinking way beyond just the "fan" base.
Now I will admit that there are some sponsors with a direct connection to cycling(Campy, Shimano, etc.) but I believe that even they aren't limiting their thinking to simply the fan base of you and I. No, they want the world to think Campy when cycling or riding a bike is even mentioned. You and I will buy one or the other of many different bike parts and they already know that. They want the rest of the world to do the same.
Well yes, you make a very good point. But I think the main point about fans, is without them, there would be no coverage so sponsorship would be less appealing. Of course, fans are never going to leave the sport en masse, so it's a bit of a moot point anyway. But fans complaining about boring GTs etc. are basically saying they'd rather see doped racing. For over 20 years, the sport has been fuelled by drugs, but the performances have become "the norm". Fans are conditioned to seeing this and expect that to continue even without drugs. That's not possible. I don't think anyone's really suggesting that a rider thinks "the fans want me to dope, so I'll do it", but indirectly, it contributes.0 -
mike6 wrote:Nick Fitt wrote:I'm sorry but it is utter **** to suggest that fans should share some responsibility, how? Millar is laughably wrong, sponsors yes, I hear Nibali is on 3.5 mn Euros per year, that kind of money is tempting a win at any cost mentality. Its all too often the bridesmaids that dope, look at Millar himself; never the bride at the WTT until he doped.
At this moment in time, Contador is deemed clean, he cheated and he got banned, the circumstances may well be laughable but tough, it is what it is, get over it.
And he is an exciting rider. IF the next 3 GTs in 2013 are clean, then you should still expect exciting riding, it is not the dope that makes a man think sharply, time his attacks. Its the dope that allows the speed, recovery etc.
Using your logic above, it was the dope that made him fast and able to recover, so it was the dope that made him, or the other so called "exciting" riders....exciting.
Lets see how exciting he is in 2013 when, hopefully, he can no longer dope.
I noticed in the Vuelta that he can still attack on the climbs but he cant sustain it anymore, he has to sit down after about 15 seconds and the others just ride back up to him. He will simply have to wait for his main rivals to have a mechanical before he can put some time into them. LOL.
Absolutely! As they are all clean now, it should be a great season eh! Who do you think his "main rivals" are?
LOL :roll:0
