Seemingly trivial things that annoy you

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  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    Fwiw, I very much subscribe a direct link between the European experience of colonialism (particularly in Africa) and the eventual WW2 and holocaust and that Germany basically imported the colonial attitude and thinking (from their own experience in Namibia) to Europe.

    WW2 in Europe the logical end point for the entire premise of colonialism.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,746
    rjsterry said:

    As someone else put it, guilt is the wrong word. Nobody needs to feel personally guilty over their ancestors' behaviour. That said, various individuals and organisations are sitting on wealth that was directly generated by an industry that required slave labour because the work was so horrific that no-one would do it willingly.

    I also think 'different times; different morals' is a bit of a cop out.
    I genuinely do not know what you mean by that.


    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 30,102
    edited April 2023
    pinno said:

    I genuinely do not know what you mean by that.


    Sorry, it's not very clear, I'd agree. I'll try to explain it another way. It's not about feeling guilty, it's just about being honest about where all this comes from. Looking at where England was in the late 16th/early 17th century, we were very much a second or third tier country. The reason we are now in the G7 and not a western version of Albania is largely down to us asset stripping bits of the world that we now refer to as developing economies. The empire was not the result of different morals but just straight commercial gain. Having created an empire, stories were then invented to sanitise the process. Clive, who was vilified in his own lifetime as a man who would stop at nothing for his own personal gain ended up with a statue in Whitehall. Colston was reinvented centuries after his death as a late Victorian heroic benefactor by Bristol establishment worried about working class unrest. The imperial attitude that Britain 'should' be running the world persists to the present and continues to cause problems for the world. Britain had direct involvement in the origin of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and various other Middle Eastern rivalries from our attempts to maintain favourable access to oil reserves.

    So it's not about guilt, but let's stop trying to kid ourselves this is all ancient water under the bridge or the result of heroic and semi-benevolent deeds. And by recognising that there's a tiny chance we'll do a bit less of stuff like Iraq, Afghanistan or Libya.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,874
    Not being able to travel or cycle in any direction without getting stuck in roadworks.
    I'd be happy if they properly resurfaced though. They won't.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,408
    Apparently there's a proposal for a 10mph limit on the Broomfield Hill (cycles only) section of road in Richmond Park. Even though the 9% section is only 250m long, that's not going to work.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660

    Apparently there's a proposal for a 10mph limit on the Broomfield Hill (cycles only) section of road in Richmond Park. Even though the 9% section is only 250m long, that's not going to work.

    That's ridiculous.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,746
    I don't entirely agree with you. I also don't entirely disagree with you.
    We either created an empire or we got taken over by foreign forces: Dutch, French, German, Portuguese, whoever.

    Yes, the idea that we should be running an empire still exists but the interference 'stuff' in foreign lands is probably more to do with being allied to the Americans and the then cold war than Empire (if you are talking about more modern times).

    ...and here we go: "asset stripping". This sort of language does not promote a balanced view. Kenya was left with an intact railway/communication system and was a thriving net exporter of goods upon independence.
    Prior to independence, Churchill ordered a team of individuals to compile a comprehensive catalogue of every single facet of Kenyan life. This took 2 years and 250 personnel to compile. It was commissioned to ease the transition to an independent state.
    I could go into detail about what occurred after independence but I can assure you, there was more attention afforded to certain ethnic groups by the British than whichever administration took over. I can cite many examples. Remember, Kenya went independent 61 years ago.
    In that time, Kenya has modernised but it still lacks a proper taxation system, it has the highest population growth in the world and the number of people in poverty is massive. There isn't a democracy - there is a complete lack pf proper representation and on top of that, corruption is rife. The leading party have always been in power meaning other ethnic groups do not get the political representation that they need.

    Which leads to what exactly are you going to do to re-dress these 'sins' of our past?
    Monetary compensation? Are we going to pour money into bottomless, corrupt pits?
    There is a huge degree of loyalty towards former colonies - like the Commonwealth and the banana trade with former colonies to Germany to France to Britain.
    One can argue that we should not have gone there in the first place but Africa could not exist in isolation of a modernising world nor would it have been untouched by foreign countries. I'll refer back to the point about relativism: our small nation had to expand or be under the constant threat of invasion by foreign powers. So the idea that we shouldn't have had an empire is fundamentally flawed and is both hindsight and forms part of this culture of relativism, heaped with flawed moral relativism.
    How we handled the transition (India is a good example) in many cases is certainly up for question and was often dire. The fact that we went in the first place is not.
    However, the 2nd WW ended and the Empire collapsed and collapsed quickly. Britain was broke. the empire was costing us in the end. It turned out to be be far more costly to run than we were benefitting from it and the implosion was superseded by the cold war, a global population explosion, shifts in power and globalisation.

    I cannot speak of other colonies with the same detail as Kenya as I have had no direct experience of them. I refuse to take the view that it was 'like this' when the rhetoric blatantly dismisses, ignores or is simply unaware of the complexities of administrating colonial countries, transitions and the resulting internal power wars after independence. I do not take the view that we should still have and should be running an Empire. I take the view that the current opinion of having had the last true empire is often naïve, riddled with incorrect information and paints an unrealistic picture. So I sit between the dinosaurs and contemporary, blinkered naivety.

    If we are going to help these countries, we have to have a much better understanding of the cultures within.

    It is without doubt that the empire financed (and populated) the war against Germany.
    That is a war which had we lost would have had unimaginable consequences.
    That isn't a justification of the British Empire, it's simply another example of a different viewpoint other than the two current and opposing stereotypical stances.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    Mau Mau was rebellion was in your life time wasn't it Pinno?
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,746

    Mau Mau was rebellion was in your life time wasn't it Pinno?

    No. I'm not that old.
    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    Care to comment on the concentration & labour camps, mass incarceration and torture? Casual murder?

    Bearing in mind it was the 50s
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 8,284
    edited April 2023

    Care to comment on the concentration & labour camps, mass incarceration and torture? Casual murder?

    Bearing in mind it was the 50s

    Care to apologise for the hundreds of thousands of insects killed by the cars you've owned?

    Have you killed any insects because they got on your nerves?
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 8,284
    Don't they deserve as much of a life as we do?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    edited April 2023

    Care to apologise for the hundreds of thousands of insects killed by the cars you've owned?

    Have you killed any insects because they got on your nerves?
    Sorry I’m not really following you here.

    No one is asking for apologies. But I wanna know what Pino thinks of something that was done in living memory by Brits. In a part of the world he knows well.

    If you want to make out I’m not in a position to ask because I have used a car, then I’ll confess I’m not really following your logic.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 30,102
    edited April 2023
    pinno said:

    I don't entirely agree with you. I also don't entirely disagree with you.
    We either created an empire or we got taken over by foreign forces: Dutch, French, German, Portuguese, whoever.

    Yes, the idea that we should be running an empire still exists but the interference 'stuff' in foreign lands is probably more to do with being allied to the Americans and the then cold war than Empire (if you are talking about more modern times).

    ...and here we go: "asset stripping". This sort of language does not promote a balanced view. Kenya was left with an intact railway/communication system and was a thriving net exporter of goods upon independence.
    Prior to independence, Churchill ordered a team of individuals to compile a comprehensive catalogue of every single facet of Kenyan life. This took 2 years and 250 personnel to compile. It was commissioned to ease the transition to an independent state.
    I could go into detail about what occurred after independence but I can assure you, there was more attention afforded to certain ethnic groups by the British than whichever administration took over. I can cite many examples. Remember, Kenya went independent 61 years ago.
    In that time, Kenya has modernised but it still lacks a proper taxation system, it has the highest population growth in the world and the number of people in poverty is massive. There isn't a democracy - there is a complete lack pf proper representation and on top of that, corruption is rife. The leading party have always been in power meaning other ethnic groups do not get the political representation that they need.

    Which leads to what exactly are you going to do to re-dress these 'sins' of our past?
    Monetary compensation? Are we going to pour money into bottomless, corrupt pits?
    There is a huge degree of loyalty towards former colonies - like the Commonwealth and the banana trade with former colonies to Germany to France to Britain.
    One can argue that we should not have gone there in the first place but Africa could not exist in isolation of a modernising world nor would it have been untouched by foreign countries. I'll refer back to the point about relativism: our small nation had to expand or be under the constant threat of invasion by foreign powers. So the idea that we shouldn't have had an empire is fundamentally flawed and is both hindsight and forms part of this culture of relativism, heaped with flawed moral relativism.
    How we handled the transition (India is a good example) in many cases is certainly up for question and was often dire. The fact that we went in the first place is not.
    However, the 2nd WW ended and the Empire collapsed and collapsed quickly. Britain was broke. the empire was costing us in the end. It turned out to be be far more costly to run than we were benefitting from it and the implosion was superseded by the cold war, a global population explosion, shifts in power and globalisation.

    I cannot speak of other colonies with the same detail as Kenya as I have had no direct experience of them. I refuse to take the view that it was 'like this' when the rhetoric blatantly dismisses, ignores or is simply unaware of the complexities of administrating colonial countries, transitions and the resulting internal power wars after independence. I do not take the view that we should still have and should be running an Empire. I take the view that the current opinion of having had the last true empire is often naïve, riddled with incorrect information and paints an unrealistic picture. So I sit between the dinosaurs and contemporary, blinkered naivety.

    If we are going to help these countries, we have to have a much better understanding of the cultures within.

    It is without doubt that the empire financed (and populated) the war against Germany.
    That is a war which had we lost would have had unimaginable consequences.
    That isn't a justification of the British Empire, it's simply another example of a different viewpoint other than the two current and opposing stereotypical stances.

    I'll reply in more detail later, but with regard to asset stripping comment, that is exactly what the aim was and what happened to India. That's not a modern reinterpretation; that is what the EIC was trying to do: extract as much wealth as possible from the wealthiest empire of the world at the time. There is an excellent series of books on this by William Dalrymple. I'm not sure having a railway is much compensation, notwithstanding that India would have been perfectly capable of building its own railway. I think you are underplaying just how much Britain was at the root of, say, the antagonism between India and Pakistan or the various states of the Middle East. I was recently listening to a podcast about the Sykes Picot Agreement, which was literally two guys who knew next to nothing of the Middle East, dividing up the former Ottoman Empire with crayons on a map.

    Clearly Britain is in no position to un-make the the numerous messes it has left around its former empire even if it wanted to. I do however think we should call a spade a spade. And if we shouldn't feel guilt for the actions of our ancestors neither should we give ourselves a pat on the back for some other ancestors being a bit more enlightened.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 8,284
    edited April 2023

    Sorry I’m not really following you here.

    No one is asking for apologies. But I wanna know what Pino thinks of something that was done in living memory by Brits. In a part of the world he knows well.

    If you want to make out I’m not in a position to ask because I have used a car, then I’ll confess I’m not really following your logic.
    I assume now as I've made you consciously aware, you will never drive your car again. That includes your bike too.

    Also, you will stop killing insects because they get on your nerves.
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,746

    Care to comment on the concentration & labour camps, mass incarceration and torture? Casual murder?

    Bearing in mind it was the 50s

    What has that got to do with me?
    My parents moved to an independent Kenya, 8 years after independence. 1 was a teacher and 1 was a an accountant.
    My stepfather was a non-British white. His forefathers were there long before the British, living in harmony with the natives.
    The Mau mau committed as many atrocities as the ruling whites. They assassinated

    *Pledge of loyalty to the Mau mau

    concentration camp
    noun
    plural noun: concentration camps
    a place in which large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labour or to await mass execution.

    According to stats, there were just over 2600 prisoners during the Mau mau uprising.
    It was wrong but not anywhere near what constituted a German or later, Russian concentration camp.

    "There continues to be vigorous debate within Kenyan society and among the academic community within and outside Kenya regarding the nature of Mau Mau and its aims, as well as the response to and effects of the uprising. Nevertheless, partly because as many Kikuyu fought against Mau Mau on the side of the colonial government as joined them in rebellion, the conflict is now often regarded in academic circles as an intra-Kikuyu civil war, a characterisation that remains extremely unpopular in Kenya. In August 1952, Kenyatta told a Kikuyu audience "Mau Mau has spoiled the country...Let Mau Mau perish forever. All people should search for Mau Mau and kill it". Kenyatta described the conflict in his memoirs as a civil war rather than a rebellion. One reason that the revolt was largely limited to the Kikuyu people was, in part, that they had suffered the most as a result of the negative aspects of British colonialism".

    Kenyatta was the first president of Kenya.

    There was derision amongst the British regarding the treatment of native African's; Churchill being one of them:

    The nature of fighting in Kenya led Winston Churchill to express concern about the scale of the fighting: "No doubt the clans should have been punished. 160 have now been killed outright without any further casualties on our side.… It looks like a butchery. If the H. of C. gets hold of it, all our plans in E.A.P. will be under a cloud. Surely it cannot be necessary to go on killing these defenceless people on such an enormous scale."

    And before that:

    In 1894 [surprisingly], British MP Sir Charles Dilke had observed in the House of Commons, "The only person who has up to the present time benefited from our enterprise in the heart of Africa has been Mr. Hiram Maxim"

    Get some balance before swinging the lead towards someone who is not a proponent of Empire, more a person who simply refuses to adopt the current modernist view.

    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    edited April 2023
    I think you’re denying the forced labour camps, torture, murder etc. but whatever.

    I’m just curious that you feel because it isn’t now you can’t pass judgment on it.

    Even at the time they were referred to as British gulags.

    So I’m asking you if you want to pass judgment on the people who ran those forced labour camps - forcing them to build a local airport.

    Or was it just the thinking of the time?

    I’m choosing it because I know it revs you up and that’s sort of the point.
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 8,284
    edited April 2023

    I think you’re denying the forced labour camps, torture, murder etc. but whatever.

    I’m just curious that you feel because it isn’t now you can’t pass judgment on it.

    Even at the time they were referred to as British gulags.

    So I’m asking you if you want to pass judgment on the people who ran those forced labour camps - forcing them to build a local airport.

    Or was it just the thinking of the time?

    I’m choosing it because I know it revs you up and that’s sort of the point.

    I think you're ignoring the fact you've killed hundreds of thousands of insects, which have as much right to a life than you do. Will you use your bike and car again?
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,746


    I’m choosing it because I know it revs you up and that’s sort of the point.

    Then it's pointless having the conversation with you.

    What about the Dutch who benefitted from Dutch Empire?
    I mean, the Dutch East India Company's trade was massive. It dwarfed other trading companies and Holland benefitted for centuries by the stripping of assets and resource procurement.

    seanoconn - gruagach craic!
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 8,284
    Why do you never mention the Dutch slave trade Rick? It's always the British Empire?

    You slag of the Tories in relation to austerity and forget that Nick Clegg/Libs were in power too.

  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 8,284
    When you watch the TDF it's always through orange tinted glasses.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 62,209

    Why do you never mention the Dutch slave trade Rick? It's always the British Empire?

    You slag of the Tories in relation to austerity and forget that Nick Clegg/Libs were in power too.

    But, but, nasty Torwies, innit.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660

    Why do you never mention the Dutch slave trade Rick? It's always the British Empire?

    You slag of the Tories in relation to austerity and forget that Nick Clegg/Libs were in power too.

    Sure. We can cover that too.

    I’m just curious how far in the past something has to be before it counts as moral revisionism.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    edited April 2023

    I think you're ignoring the fact you've killed hundreds of thousands of insects, which have as much right to a life than you do. Will you use your bike and car again?
    Sorry are you equating driving a car to mass murder?

    I mean, I know it’s the trivial thread but that seems a bit extreme.
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 8,284

    Sure. We can cover that too.

    I’m just curious how far in the past something has to be before it counts as moral revisionism.
    Have a search and tell us when you think the Dutch should stop apologising.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 30,102

    Have a search and tell us when you think the Dutch should stop apologising.
    Who said anything about apologising?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 8,284
    rjsterry said:

    Who said anything about apologising?
    Ok change that to acknowledge.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 30,102
    pinno said:

    What has that got to do with me?
    My parents moved to an independent Kenya, 8 years after independence. 1 was a teacher and 1 was a an accountant.
    My stepfather was a non-British white. His forefathers were there long before the British, living in harmony with the natives.
    The Mau mau committed as many atrocities as the ruling whites. They assassinated

    *Pledge of loyalty to the Mau mau

    concentration camp
    noun
    plural noun: concentration camps
    a place in which large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labour or to await mass execution.

    According to stats, there were just over 2600 prisoners during the Mau mau uprising.
    It was wrong but not anywhere near what constituted a German or later, Russian concentration camp.

    "There continues to be vigorous debate within Kenyan society and among the academic community within and outside Kenya regarding the nature of Mau Mau and its aims, as well as the response to and effects of the uprising. Nevertheless, partly because as many Kikuyu fought against Mau Mau on the side of the colonial government as joined them in rebellion, the conflict is now often regarded in academic circles as an intra-Kikuyu civil war, a characterisation that remains extremely unpopular in Kenya. In August 1952, Kenyatta told a Kikuyu audience "Mau Mau has spoiled the country...Let Mau Mau perish forever. All people should search for Mau Mau and kill it". Kenyatta described the conflict in his memoirs as a civil war rather than a rebellion. One reason that the revolt was largely limited to the Kikuyu people was, in part, that they had suffered the most as a result of the negative aspects of British colonialism".

    Kenyatta was the first president of Kenya.

    There was derision amongst the British regarding the treatment of native African's; Churchill being one of them:

    The nature of fighting in Kenya led Winston Churchill to express concern about the scale of the fighting: "No doubt the clans should have been punished. 160 have now been killed outright without any further casualties on our side.… It looks like a butchery. If the H. of C. gets hold of it, all our plans in E.A.P. will be under a cloud. Surely it cannot be necessary to go on killing these defenceless people on such an enormous scale."

    And before that:

    In 1894 [surprisingly], British MP Sir Charles Dilke had observed in the House of Commons, "The only person who has up to the present time benefited from our enterprise in the heart of Africa has been Mr. Hiram Maxim"

    Get some balance before swinging the lead towards someone who is not a proponent of Empire, more a person who simply refuses to adopt the current modernist view.

    You keep suggesting that this is just a modern view but that's not really the case. The excesses of Robert Clive in India, which caused a famine in Bengal, led to a parliamentary enquiry and the passing of Regulating Act of 1773 to reform the EIC. There were various revolts in the 19th century with control of India removed from the EIC in 1854 and the Company formally dissolved in 1874. The direction is clear, even if it took 170 years to reach the obvious conclusion.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • pinno
    pinno Posts: 52,746
    rjsterry said:

    You keep suggesting that this is just a modern view but that's not really the case. The excesses of Robert Clive in India, which caused a famine in Bengal, led to a parliamentary enquiry and the passing of Regulating Act of 1773 to reform the EIC. There were various revolts in the 19th century with control of India removed from the EIC in 1854 and the Company formally dissolved in 1874. The direction is clear, even if it took 170 years to reach the obvious conclusion.
    Well I haven't actually. I did include historical quotes.

    It is much easier to place blame on historical events for current predicaments than it is to find solutions and I think that people are quick to get on a bandwagon.

    Empire has been superseded by rampant globalisation, population growth and levels of inequality that are unprecedented. There has been more conflict and turmoil since the end of the British empire than during. We have to put Empire into the context of the evolution of morality, concepts of freedom, human rights etc* but despite that context, the fall of empire didn't mark an end to exploitation and genocide.

    *International court of human rights
    The Geneva convention
    The UN

    All organisations that have formed because of the 2nd world war and because of a moral evolution of man you could suggest but ironically, pretty toothless in dealing with Chinese Human rights atrocities, the Saudi campaign against the Yemeni's, the current situation in Ukraine. None of those organisations prevented the Serbian conflict and massacres, Idi Amin, the massacre in Rwanda, Pol pot and the Khmer rouge, actions of the Argentinian military Junta etc etc.

    The former slaves of Haiti extracted themselves from French rule 219 years ago and is still pretty f*cked. 30,000 people died from being bludgeoned to death over 20 years from 1937.

    In what way does acknowledging past events assist former colonies?
    Where do you draw the line?

    Political and commercial decisions still primarily dictate what happens globally.







    seanoconn - gruagach craic!

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