Seemingly trivial things that annoy you

rjsterry

First.Aspect said:

Pross said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

Someone accidentally put oat 'milk' in my tea.

Does anyone actually understand the point of oat milk?

Is it just a vegan-sniff your own wind fad thing?

It’s OK on cereal, horrible in a hot drink though

But it must be essentially carbs and water, right?

Not really.



For comparison.

Cow's milk (full-fat) nutrition per 100ml (roughly 100g):

64kcals
120mg calcium
3.6g fat
2.3g sat fat
4.6g sugar
3.4g protein

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

First.Aspect said:

Pross said:

First.Aspect said:

rjsterry said:

Someone accidentally put oat 'milk' in my tea.

Does anyone actually understand the point of oat milk?

Is it just a vegan-sniff your own wind fad thing?

It’s OK on cereal, horrible in a hot drink though

But it must be essentially carbs and water, right?

Not really.



For comparison.

Cow's milk (full-fat) nutrition per 100ml (roughly 100g):

64kcals
120mg calcium
3.6g fat
2.3g sat fat
4.6g sugar
3.4g protein

You're comparing 240ml with 100 ml. Full fat milk has more calories although oat milk has a decent amount.

rjsterry

I know. I assumed people could do the division in their head. Point was that there's a fair bit of protein and minerals in both - not just carbs and water.

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

I know. I assumed people could do the division in their head. Point was that there's a fair bit of protein and minerals in both - not just carbs and water.

Yes, there are. You need the fortified version though. It has more calories than soy and almond milk. There is a decent amount of variance in between brands as well. Unfortunately, I had to do all this analysis a couple of years ago due to kids and allergies.

pangolin

TheBigBean said:

rjsterry said:

I know. I assumed people could do the division in their head. Point was that there's a fair bit of protein and minerals in both - not just carbs and water.

Yes, there are. You need the fortified version though. It has more calories than soy and almond milk. There is a decent amount of variance in between brands as well. Unfortunately, I had to do all this analysis a couple of years ago due to kids and allergies.

Same. Very tedious.

rick_chasey

Might be an urban myth I thought I read in France they passed a rule that says only actual milk from animals is allowed to be called “milk”

First.Aspect

Soy dispersion doesn't sound great.

rick_chasey

Because it isn’t ✌🏻✌🏻

Pross

rick_chasey said:

Might be an urban myth I thought I read in France they passed a rule that says only actual milk from animals is allowed to be called “milk”

It’s not called milk in the UK anymore either. Milk substitute or something I think.

briantrumpet

rick_chasey said:

Might be an urban myth I thought I read in France they passed a rule that says only actual milk from animals is allowed to be called “milk”

Well, interestingly, although if you search images for 'lait d'avoine', you don't find the word 'lait' on the label...

https://www.frenchclick.co.uk/p-7522-bjorg-lait-davoine-bio-intense-1l.aspx

pangolin

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

Might be an urban myth I thought I read in France they passed a rule that says only actual milk from animals is allowed to be called “milk”

It’s not called milk in the UK anymore either. Milk substitute or something I think.

Yeah people will ask for oat/soy/pea milk but you don't actually see milk written on the cartons.

Pross

rjsterry said:

I know. I assumed people could do the division in their head. Point was that there's a fair bit of protein and minerals in both - not just carbs and water.

Information for Alpro, not exactly high in protein

briantrumpet

pangolin said:

Pross said:

rick_chasey said:

Might be an urban myth I thought I read in France they passed a rule that says only actual milk from animals is allowed to be called “milk”

It’s not called milk in the UK anymore either. Milk substitute or something I think.

Yeah people will ask for oat/soy/pea milk but you don't actually see milk written on the cartons.

One of those EU regs that have oppressed us so terribly, I expect.

First.Aspect

But it it still tastes like tepid watered down skimmed milk, so I don't see the problem.

TheBigBean

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

I know. I assumed people could do the division in their head. Point was that there's a fair bit of protein and minerals in both - not just carbs and water.

Information for Alpro, not exactly high in protein

Oatly has quite a bit more. Not as good as actual milk of course. All very tedious.

Nutrition information per 100 ml:

Energy
203 kJ/48 kcal
Fat
1.5 g
of which saturated
0.2 g
Carbohydrates
7.2 g
of which sugars
3,5 g*
Fibre
0.8 g
Protein
1.1 g
Salt
0.10 g
Vitamin D
1.1 µg (22%**)
Riboflavin
0.21 mg (15%**)
Vitamin B12
0.38 µg (15%**)
Calcium
120 mg (15%**)
Iodine
22.5 µg (15%**)

briantrumpet

First.Aspect said:

But it it still tastes like tepid watered down skimmed milk, so I don't see the problem.

I've never tasted it, or any of the other pretend milks, but you've almost sold it to me with that glowing review.

masjer

There's more to milk than just taste. 628 litres of freshwater water to produce 1 litre of milk! All our polluted, dying rivers are testament to the problem with the dairy industry.

Anyhow, of all the plant based 'milks', I find sweetened soy the best on cereals, don't really drink any of them. Soy is high in protein too.
https://ourworldindata.org/environmental-impact-milks

veronese68

The lad uses oat milk in his tea as he won't touch actual milk since working on a dairy farm during his year off. I've told him that ignorance is bliss and I don't want to know the details so I can carry on enjoing cow juice in tea and on cereal.

pinno

masjer said:

There's more to milk than just taste. 628 litres of freshwater water to produce 1 litre of milk! All our polluted, dying rivers are testament to the problem with the dairy industry.

Well... 628 litres is not enough to dry Jockland out enough.

On a serious note, water tributaries in this region are pretty healthy. In Scotland, slurry spreading is much reduced thereby keeping nitrate levels below EU set levels and this region has some of the highest milk yielding herds in Western Europe. We rarely suffer water shortages.
NZ has a massive problem with nitrate levels around the Salisbury plains with over fertilisation and nitrate build ups that turn pristine glacial water into cloudy, green algae ridden toxic soup when it passes through. ...and the market for NZ dairy produce? China.

There's a fascinating but horrific documentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_mrSrvlFlQ

However, I am totally against Soya. Europe still imports millions of tons from Brazil and that of course, is directly connected with deforestation.
Go to page 3: https://www.idhsustainabletrade.com/uploaded/2020/05/IDH-European-Soy-Monitor-v2.pdf

There is the dark side of Soya.
Raw Soya was used as a contraceptive in the far east where, on the whole, the Chinese ferment Soya which neutralises the toxins and chemicals that can block Oestrogen production. It is thought that urine laced with Soya derivatives is entering our water systems and even recycled and thus accumulating and is then re-consumed by us. This might be one of the main reasons for infertility in Western society and it is a factor in the poor conditions for fresh water organisms. The extent to which Soya is a contributor is unknown but not to be ignored.

There's more: Soya, like palm oil, is ubiquitous in our food stuffs.

https://www.theguardian.com/news/2006/jul/25/food.foodanddrink

The more sustainable production of milk should take into consideration landscape, ecology and climate. Also, there are current experiments with cattle that eat a much more varied diet of greenery. This meadowland requires less pesticides, the cattle produce less methane and the meadow requires much less Nitrates to keep fertile. [BBC Country File - couldn't find the episode].

There's benefit to cattle consuming meadowland.

https://theecologist.org/2018/aug/03/cattle-fed-wildflowers-could-help-save-dwindling-meadows

Also, altering the bacteria in cattle gut could reduce methane production.

https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20190806-how-vaccines-could-fix-our-problem-with-cow-emissions

There's a lot we could do to change dairy production and it doesn't need to have such a huge environmental impact but using Soya in any shape or form, is not an educated substitute.

masjer

The bad press about soy and health is largely a fictitious internet myth. It’s a healthy high protein food source.

80%+ of soybean production goes to animal feed. It's beef and the dairy industry causing mass deforestation not soy consumption directly. Raising beef is highly inefficient as a protein source.
Imagine if dairy/beef pasture was rewilded worldwide, forest cover would be increasing.

Harvard:
Straight Talk About Soy
a variety of soy foods, including: soybeans, edamame, soy sauce, tofu, tempeh, soy milk
The Takeaway: Soy is a unique food that is widely studied for its estrogenic and anti-estrogenic effects on the body. Studies may seem to present conflicting conclusions about soy, but this is largely due to the wide variation in how soy is studied. Results of recent population studies suggest that soy has either a beneficial or neutral effect on various health conditions. Soy is a nutrient-dense source of protein that can safely be consumed several times a week, and probably more often, and is likely to provide health benefits—especially when eaten as an alternative to red and processed meat/i>

masjer

This is a good informative article about soy:
https://runnersworld.com/nutrition-weight-loss/a27751629/is-soy-bad-for-you/

pinno

masjer said:

This is a good informative article about soy:
https://runnersworld.com/nutrition-weight-loss/a27751629/is-soy-bad-for-you/

It's not even referenced and he is contrary:

Soybean oil is especially high in omega-6 fat, which can be concerning. It’s not that omega-6 fat is unhealthy—in fact one type called linoleic acid is essential, which means you have to get some in your diet—it’s just that most Americans consume much higher levels of omega-6 fats in comparison to omega-3 fats. “This problem arises when people eat too much greasy fast-food and processed foods and not enough omega-3 rich foods like fatty fish and walnuts,” says Antonucci. A ratio skewed heavily towards omega-6 fats may promote unwanted weight gain and drive up inflammation in the body, which can place you at a greater risk of ailments like heart disease and may even reduce recovery from hard runs.

pinno

masjer said:

The bad press about soy and health is largely a fictitious internet myth. It’s a healthy high protein food source.

Only in certain forms. See your article above (if it's accurate).

masjer

^It's common knowledge, so doesn't need to be referenced.

The long history of soy consumption in Japan, is a strong indicator it's not a health concern. They have one of the longest life expectancies on the planet.

80% of the total farmland worldwide is used to rear livestock. If the world went vegan it would free up the land mass of the EU, China, USA and Australia combined.

I don't drink soy for a fad, health reasons or taste, just maximum eco benefit.

masjer

pinno said:

masjer said:

The bad press about soy and health is largely a fictitious internet myth. It’s a healthy high protein food source.

Only in certain forms. See your article above (if it's accurate).

I don't think many processed foods are healthy, whether plant based or animal.

pinno

masjer said:

I don't drink soy for a fad, health reasons or taste, just maximum eco benefit.

Can you ascertain where the Soya you consume is sourced from?
No you can't, so therefore you cannot separate human consumption of Soya which is derived from land that has been deforested and land that isn't.
Can you be assured there are no derivatives (processed) of Soya that are harmful in other foodstuffs you (we) consume?
Don't the Japanese have a very varied diet and that the inclusion of Soya as a healthy food source and as a contributor to longer life is virtually impossible to ascertain?

briantrumpet

masjer said:

^It's common knowledge, so doesn't need to be referenced.

The long history of soy consumption in Japan, is a strong indicator it's not a health concern. They have one of the longest life expectancies on the planet.

80% of the total farmland worldwide is used to rear livestock. If the world went vegan it would free up the land mass of the EU, China, USA and Australia combined.

I don't drink soy for a fad, health reasons or taste, just maximum eco benefit.

An alternative POV: https://www.foodingredientsfirst.com/news/true-cost-of-crop-soy-milk-consumption-may-be-more-environmentally-harmful-than-dairy-study-finds.html

Soy milk’s plant-based halo often connotes environmental sustainability among consumers, but new research from the UK argues that the cultivation of its crop may be more detrimental to the ecosystem than dairy. A study published by the University of Nottingham and the Sustainable Food Trust flags that this contrast is due to the clearance of vast areas of rainforest for the purposes of soy farming. FoodIngredientsFirst speaks to Richard Young, Policy Director of the trust and an author of the study, to weigh the true costs of cow’s milk against its plant-based popular alternative.

“Sections of the vegan movement have run very aggressive campaigns against dairy farming. We feel it is wonderful that people feel passionate about these issues and agree that change is urgently needed. The problem is that the change they seek is based on only partial scientific understanding and will make things worse rather than better as they assume,” Young stresses.

Livestock, Young further argues, may in fact play an integral role in preserving food chains. “Our analysis of the evidence suggests to us that grazing animals are of absolute paramount important to sustainable food systems and that grass and ruminants are the only way to restore degraded soil at scale, while still producing food for humans,” he says.

Pross

pinno said:

masjer said:

I don't drink soy for a fad, health reasons or taste, just maximum eco benefit.

Can you ascertain where the Soya you consume is sourced from?
No you can't, so therefore you cannot separate human consumption of Soya which is derived from land that has been deforested and land that isn't.
Can you be assured there are no derivatives (processed) of Soya that are harmful in other foodstuffs you (we) consume?
Don't the Japanese have a very varied diet and that the inclusion of Soya as a healthy food source and as a contributor to longer life is virtually impossible to ascertain?

I think you are looking at Masjer’s comment the wrong way around there. He was responding to the previous comment about it being unhealthy and arguing that Japanese life expectancy would suggest that is unlikely rather than that their use of soy contributing to life expectancy as I read it.

masjer

The reason why I chose soy ‘milk’(sweetened) is it’s great on cereal and has a high protein content. Oat has probably the best eco credentials, but low protein content and worse taste.
Almond production in California uses up the groundwater, so ruled that out.

The soy ‘milk’ labelling on made brands say ‘made from soy grown in the EU’.
The issue with deforestation and soy, is that it is mainly grown for animal feed, 90-95% in the Amazon.


Processed meat is a known carcinogen, so I’d back soy to be less harmful if processed.

If we continue on our current track, by 2050, 80% of the world’s land surface will be needed to grow animal feed. That’s a world I don’t want to witness.

I'll say it again, 80% of all soy production goes to feed animals.

masjer

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