Drugs in other sports and the media.

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  • RoadPainter
    RoadPainter Posts: 375
    Joelsim wrote:
    sherer wrote:
    The German team that won the World Cup in 54 were using drugs and they were rumoured to be be doing it in 66 too. Yes drugs won't give you the technical ability but they can help with other aspects of the game.

    If drugs didn't work in football then were wouldn't be a cross over of some of the same doctors.

    Luckily so too did the Russian linesman

    He wasn't Russian, he was Azerbaijani!

    Unfortunately the ref was probably in the same boat because he allowed a last-minute equaliser for Germany, even though it was handball. No, the Germans don't moan about that one!
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Lol, pretty funny reading some of the comments from the pros particularly Novak. It just goes to show how advanced and tough Cycling doping prevention is.

    Do you really think it's tough enough?
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Joelsim wrote:
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Lol, pretty funny reading some of the comments from the pros particularly Novak. It just goes to show how advanced and tough Cycling doping prevention is.

    Do you really think it's tough enough?
    Out of interest, what further measures would you implement?
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rayjay
    rayjay Posts: 1,384
    Tie them upside down over the souls of the un-dead. Then watch as their flesh slowly melts to the music of One Direction. Don't do drugs :lol:
  • r0bh
    r0bh Posts: 2,438
    They should be tied to stakes and then have the Ark of the Convenant opened in front of them, whose awesome power will melt them like wax models (see Raiders of the Lost Ark)
  • rayjay
    rayjay Posts: 1,384
    Kill them with a thousand swords
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,927
    RichN95 wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Lol, pretty funny reading some of the comments from the pros particularly Novak. It just goes to show how advanced and tough Cycling doping prevention is.

    Do you really think it's tough enough?
    Out of interest, what further measures would you implement?

    Retrospective testing.
  • joelsim
    joelsim Posts: 7,552
    RichN95 wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Lol, pretty funny reading some of the comments from the pros particularly Novak. It just goes to show how advanced and tough Cycling doping prevention is.

    Do you really think it's tough enough?
    Out of interest, what further measures would you implement?

    That's the tricky thing. The only way is the threat of a totally unannounced tester turning up on any day, any time, anywhere. Infringement of human rights or not. Possibly say that it will happen no more than once per month on average ie 12 times per year. Then completely run in so that it is nothing for 3 months, then 4 times in the space of the next month, then not again for a while...totally random. All riders have to sign something stating this is ok.

    The only way anyone ever gets caught is when it's totally unexpected. Otherwise it's far too easy to dodge and a pointless waste of money.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Joelsim wrote:

    That's the tricky thing. The only way is the threat of a totally unannounced tester turning up on any day, any time, anywhere. Infringement of human rights or not. Possibly say that it will happen no more than once per month on average ie 12 times per year. Then completely run in so that it is nothing for 3 months, then 4 times in the space of the next month, then not again for a while...totally random. All riders have to sign something stating this is ok.
    And to how would you know where they are at all these times? I suppose you would have some sort of tagging device? Which therefore gives sportsmen less human rights than paroled prisoners, terror suspects and people on sex offender registers. You need to get some sort of perspective.

    To put a halt to doping you just need to incentivise 18 people - the bosses of the 18 Pro Tour teams. Treating people like convicts is counter-productive.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,655
    RichN95 wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:

    That's the tricky thing. The only way is the threat of a totally unannounced tester turning up on any day, any time, anywhere. Infringement of human rights or not. Possibly say that it will happen no more than once per month on average ie 12 times per year. Then completely run in so that it is nothing for 3 months, then 4 times in the space of the next month, then not again for a while...totally random. All riders have to sign something stating this is ok.
    And to how would you know where they are at all these times? I suppose you would have some sort of tagging device? Which therefore gives sportsmen less human rights than paroled prisoners, terror suspects and people on sex offender registers. You need to get some sort of perspective.

    To put a halt to doping you just need to incentivise 18 people - the bosses of the 18 Pro Tour teams. Treating people like convicts is counter-productive.

    I suggested ages ago a certification program for teams, independently audited, with UCI points on offer, to incentivise best practices. It got short shrift.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    TheBigBean wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Joelsim wrote:
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Lol, pretty funny reading some of the comments from the pros particularly Novak. It just goes to show how advanced and tough Cycling doping prevention is.

    Do you really think it's tough enough?
    Out of interest, what further measures would you implement?

    Retrospective testing.


    Min $1,500 a pop. Someone has to find the dosh for a comprehensive program that doesnt mean robbing from Peter (testing now) to pay Paul (previous years).

    Personally I would like to see all the ridiculous holes in testing below World Tour, plugged.

    I know of at least one guy on one of the biggest GB conti teams who says he hasnt been tested once this year - and he's certainly not alone.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,927
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Retrospective testing.


    Min $1,500 a pop. Someone has to find the dosh for a comprehensive program that doesnt mean robbing from Peter (testing now) to pay Paul (previous years).

    I think I would rob Peter now to pay for Peter's restropective testing in the future. Peter being the winner of something professional and not some poor amateur.

    It would increase costs, but it would also be the most effective anti-doping measure. The possibility of being busted in the future against the impossibility of being busted now is quite persuasive.
  • Captain Slackbladder
    Captain Slackbladder Posts: 175
    No real suprise..."So, if you fail an in-competition test, you haven't only failed a drugs test, you have failed an IQ test''

    Ring any bells...

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/athletics/24900565
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    Retrospective testing.


    Min $1,500 a pop. Someone has to find the dosh for a comprehensive program that doesnt mean robbing from Peter (testing now) to pay Paul (previous years).

    I think I would rob Peter now to pay for Peter's restropective testing in the future. Peter being the winner of something professional and not some poor amateur.

    It would increase costs, but it would also be the most effective anti-doping measure. The possibility of being busted in the future against the impossibility of being busted now is quite persuasive.


    Well, riders racing outside of World Tour races are not necessarily amateurs (in the cycling sense of non-pro). Plenty of WT and ProConti teams ride non-WT races.

    Talking about costs. Anti-doping efforts arent getting a lot of love, funding wise. WADA is funded 50% IOC / 50% by governments globally. No increase in budget for a while so a decreased budget in real terms. The ADOs are totally dependent on their individual govts for their funding - and the budget situation is highly variable. CCES have had a $1m increase approved for their budget, while UKAD are are getting their budget cut by 10% - which added to previous savings demanded each year since 09 will mean a total of 27% cut in real terms by 2015. Its a pigs ear.

    As for the UCI, if I were Cookson I'd forget all about any TRC which is likely to be very expensive. The money would be better spent elsewhere.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Retroactive testing is clearly a tool which isn't being used enough. It may be expensive so it needs to be used intelligently rather than willy nilly.

    I'd certainly prefer money to go towards that than any Truth & Reconcilliation process (which no-one seems to have a format for). You'll get more truth and a similar amount of reconcilliation (which no-one is really interested in)
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,698
    USD 1500 a pop is surely way too high. I wonder if WADA might be better served setting up their own lab to do these sorts of things....
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Macaloon
    Macaloon Posts: 5,545
    ddraver wrote:
    USD 1500 a pop is surely way too high. I wonder if WADA might be better served setting up their own lab to do these sorts of things....
    Probably more a reflection of the pitifully small number of tests across cripplingly high equipment and professional staff costs. A good solution would be for more, richer, sports to do more EPO (& variants) testing.
    ...a rare 100% loyal Pro Race poster. A poster boy for the community.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    ddraver wrote:
    USD 1500 a pop is surely way too high. I wonder if WADA might be better served setting up their own lab to do these sorts of things....


    Testing is not part of their remit - which is agreed with their paymasters, the IOC and the govts. WADA's push is on:

    - making sure everyone's testing for the same level of substances - which is definitely not the case now. Cycling is right high up on the leaderboad in terms of how many are tested for. Other sports - less so
    - lab accreditation
    - trying to force all ADOs to get their S^&t sorted out (''Hello Jamaica, Hello Kenya")
    - pushing through legislative changes for tougher penalties for dopers; + penalties for coaches etc (this is new)
    - investigations and intelligence-gathering rather than just relying on blood and urine sample testing


    There's a lot of antagonism right now between WADA and many sports governing bodies - bad relations with WADA werent exclusive to Pat and Hein. The sports governing bodies go complaining to the IOC. The IOC fund 50% of WADA (as WADA are fond of pointing out, their annual budget's less than Wayne Rooney's paycheck)

    Its...complicated...
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Someone once likened WADA to someone who when your car is stuck in the mud tells you your efforts to get it out are all wrong while sitting on the bonnet of a tow truck.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    ^I think in the case of Jamaica, they hadnt gone so far as buying a car. Possibly a sign saying GONE FISHIN' to hang on the door of a garage
  • wombly_knees
    wombly_knees Posts: 657
    ddraver wrote:
    USD 1500 a pop is surely way too high. I wonder if WADA might be better served setting up their own lab to do these sorts of things....
    I read last year the Antigua cycling fed chief saying that it would've cost an estimated $3000 to get it from St John's to a WADA accredited lab, and due to that had to stick to rudimentary testing (at the Carib Championships).

    So... who's going to fund it outside the creamiest layer?
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,698
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    ddraver wrote:
    USD 1500 a pop is surely way too high. I wonder if WADA might be better served setting up their own lab to do these sorts of things....


    Testing is not part of their remit - which is agreed with their paymasters, the IOC and the govts. WADA's push is on:

    - making sure everyone's testing for the same level of substances - which is definitely not the case now. Cycling is right high up on the leaderboad in terms of how many are tested for. Other sports - less so
    - lab accreditation
    - trying to force all ADOs to get their S^&t sorted out (''Hello Jamaica, Hello Kenya")
    - pushing through legislative changes for tougher penalties for dopers; + penalties for coaches etc (this is new)
    - investigations and intelligence-gathering rather than just relying on blood and urine sample testing


    There's a lot of antagonism right now between WADA and many sports governing bodies - bad relations with WADA werent exclusive to Pat and Hein. The sports governing bodies go complaining to the IOC. The IOC fund 50% of WADA (as WADA are fond of pointing out, their annual budget's less than Wayne Rooney's paycheck)

    Its...complicated...

    If future WADA had a lab, specifically set up for dope tests, then they would nt have to essentially fund the consultancy costs of each individual lab they re using now...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • rockmount
    rockmount Posts: 761
    As long as you get tested when you choose to, you'll be just fine..

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/olympi ... cheat.html
    .. who said that, internet forum people ?
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,655
    rockmount wrote:
    As long as you get tested when you choose to, you'll be just fine..

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/olympi ... cheat.html

    To be honest, if you want to point the finger at athletics then the Christine Ohuruogu case isn't really the one to be looking at. Fair enough if you don't believe that she missed her tests for honest reasons, but there's plenty of evidence to suggest that's exactly what happened.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    edited November 2013
    ddraver wrote:
    If future WADA had a lab, specifically set up for dope tests, then they would nt have to essentially fund the consultancy costs of each individual lab they re using now...


    Thing is that WADA dont test / pay labs fees. They set out the standards for labs to comply with to be accredited or approved, and they fund grants for research projects etc. But they're not in the business of administering the actual tests themselves.

    The ADOs use labs for tests eg UKAD - King's College, as do the sports governing bodies etc. But the ADOs are funded by their respective governments not by WADA.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    Back to Jamaica and their woes....it seems that Tygart and crew may be parachuted in to help sort them out

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/others ... oblem.html

    And the Washington Post are on the case of the chairman of JADCO, who may have been less than truthful re his qualifications:

    http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB1 ... 1118823918
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    There was talk on the Today programme this morning about the Rio lab being closed or not meeting WADA standards and that all tests will/may have to be flown to Switzerland during the World Cup. I can't find a link to a fuller story on it (after not looking very hard mind you) and I was half asleep and also had Dutch news in the other ear but I'm pretty sure this was the story. Anyone know any more about this?
    Correlation is not causation.
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    Above The Cows wrote:
    There was talk on the Today programme this morning about the Rio lab being closed or not meeting WADA standards and that all tests will/may have to be flown to Switzerland during the World Cup. I can't find a link to a fuller story on it (after not looking very hard mind you) and I was half asleep and also had Dutch news in the other ear but I'm pretty sure this was the story. Anyone know any more about this?


    Here you go
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/dc ... story.html

    Its interesting...Lausanne is one of the 'super labs'...
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Back to Jamaica and their woes....it seems that Tygart and crew may be parachuted in to help sort them out

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/others ... oblem.html
    So will we get seven years of inaction followed by the fudging of the statue of limitations again?
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Richmond Racer
    Richmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    RichN95 wrote:
    Richmond Racer wrote:
    Back to Jamaica and their woes....it seems that Tygart and crew may be parachuted in to help sort them out

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/others ... oblem.html
    So will we get seven years of inaction followed by the fudging of the statue of limitations again?


    Well...UKAD's helping Belarus ADO to get their s$%t sorted, so lets see how long it takes Trav. Massive spotlight on Jamaica right now - they cant faff around any longer. Trav will LOVE the idea of being the big swinging d&ck who sorts out JADCO, you know he will.

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