Drugs in other sports and the media.

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  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 22,549
    TheBigBean wrote:
    6 month ban for the guilty horses. Are we to assume that leniency has been shown because it was a forced East German style programme?
    It's not lenient. A flat racehorse's career only lasts two years, three at a push.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • shinyhelmutshinyhelmut Posts: 1,369
    You know what? The rider who genuinely does go rogue would still risk it

    And the team who find out one of their riders has gone rogue will have a huge incentive to cover it up.
  • joelsimjoelsim Posts: 7,552
    RichN95 wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    6 month ban for the guilty horses. Are we to assume that leniency has been shown because it was a forced East German style programme?
    It's not lenient. A flat racehorse's career only lasts two years, three at a push.

    It was in a cream for saddle sores I gather.

    Or just a dodgy steak bought from Tesco.
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  • Richmond RacerRichmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    WADA changing its code relating to length of bans for serious first time offices, from 2 years to 4
  • Dorset_BoyDorset_Boy Posts: 2,319
    Fair play to the horse racing authorities - horses test on 9th April, and trainer and horses banned on 25th April, and a proper ban on the trainer. However I think all the horses at those stables should be banned for a period too. Good also to hear the racing director being quite contrite.
  • Richmond RacerRichmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    Dorset Boy wrote:
    Fair play to the horse racing authorities - horses test on 9th April, and trainer and horses banned on 25th April, and a proper ban on the trainer. However I think all the horses at those stables should be banned for a period too. Good also to hear the racing director being quite contrite.


    Yeah, they moved fast - you listening, other sports feds?

    Poor horses, pumped full of c%*p
  • ProssPross Posts: 21,040
    Horse racing more or less always acts quickly, decisively and robustly. The sport exists as a means of gambling and so the punters have to have some sort of reassurance that they are being given the fairest possible chance to win or the whole business goes down the pan. Incidentally, most forms of cheating in racing are aimed at slowing a horse down rather than helping it win.
  • RichN95 wrote:
    I'd be amazed if cricket didn't have a drug problem. Just a look at how batsmen have bulked up, how bowlers are pressured to bowl faster and for longer and how the relentless daily grind sounds like something out of Rough Ride. Asif was a very skilful bowler who was thought to be short of a yard of pace in the international game. There must be a huge temptation to juice in that situation.
    Batsmen haven't bulked up. Just because Chris Gayle is in the news, it doesn't mean they're all like that (and there's always been big sloggers, right back to the days of Jessop). Cook and Bell aren't bulky, neither are the likes of Chanderpaul and Amla. Tendulkar's tiny, so was Lara. Just because they don't look like Gatting and Inzamam any more (Kallis aside) it doesn't mean they're all on drugs. Even a fat lump like Mark Cosgrove is playing Sheffield Shield in Australia.

    And as for bowling, pace isn't that revelevant any more. No-one has been intimidated by pace since Ambrose and Donald. The padding's too good and there's a limit on bouncers. The best 'pace' bowler of recent times was McGrath and he was slow as anything. It's all about consistency and variation these days. And drugs don't make you bowl faster anyway. And spinners are the one's that do the long spells now.

    Now booze. That's a problem for some - I know at least of England cricketer who basically drank away his career and plenty of them still smoke. But PEDs? Nah. I've seen plenty of cricketers in Cardiff, including many internationals - and not one of them looks anything other than normal - even Chris Gayle. We've even got a first class cricketer (and apparently potential future international) playing hockey in our 4th team. He seems to spend his life in Nandos.

    I think you are over simplifying things. Pace (and stamina) is incredibly important for a bowler. You don't take wickets by pace alone, but by the combination of swinging or seaming it at a quick enough pace so an international batsman doesn't have time to adjust and so there's enough on the edge that it will carry to the keeper/slip-cordon. That means 80mph+. McGrath was at 82 or 83mph for most of his career but his danger was from bounce from his height. Have a look at the number of England seamers in the last decade who were under 80 mph. Then have a look at all the successful county bowlers - the likes of Davies at Durham/now Kent; young Woakes at Warwickshire; Masters at Essex; Sidebottom until he upped his pace - who didn't get a sniff at international cricket despite being perennially at the top of the averages/top-wicket-takers lists because they were deemed too slow. The likes of Bresnan, Sidebottom and Hoggard were ruthlessly discarded when their pace dropped below 80mph. James Harris may be faced with the same quandary where he needs an extra half yard of pace to be given a shot. He's now been put on the Development squad (and no doubt encouraged to move to Middlesex) with this exact thing in mind.

    Meanwhile slight batsmen like Joe Root, Jos Buttler have also been put into England training programmes and will emerge much bulkier at the end of it. I'm not saying that will be because of drugs, but because strength is an advantage. Gym work has become an accepted part of international cricket because it allows skilful players to narrow the gap on their stronger rivals and they are told that unless they strengthen up they won't make it. It's not just those who end up looking like Hayden, Pollard or Kallis but those who start as rakes and end up looking average. The temptation is clearly there and to think otherwise is naive.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 22,549
    edited April 2013
    Ok, two points.

    1. How much extra pace do you thing doping (let's say they can take anything) will add. Probably no more than 1 or 2 mph - it won't make that much difference. And what will drugs do what can't be attained normally?

    2. No batsmen needs to be unnaturally big (let's remember that the best batsman of our lifetimes is 5 foot 5). They don't have to be at any physical level that they can't attain quite easily naturally.

    The gains available from doping aren't enough to make it worth while.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 43,782 Lives Here
    RichN95 wrote:

    What you doing is falling into the trap of thinking that because a sportsman can cheat they will cheat. But that isn't the case. Humans by and large are pretty honest, cheating is not their default setting. If there is no real need to cheat, they almost always won't.

    You obviously don't work in the City...

    People who are by their nature competitive also tend to be quite greedy.
  • dennisndennisn Posts: 10,334
    RichN95 wrote:

    What you doing is falling into the trap of thinking that because a sportsman can cheat they will cheat. But that isn't the case. Humans by and large are pretty honest, cheating is not their default setting. If there is no real need to cheat, they almost always won't.

    You obviously don't work in the City...

    People who are by their nature competitive also tend to be quite greedy.

    I'm going to cast my vote mostly with "RichN95" in that for most people cheating is not the default setting. There are billions of people out there who simply work hard, do their best, and take what comes their way. They get little or no publicity and are fine with that. The cheaters you read about are a very small minority but get tons of publicity when caught because, basically, people want to hear the dirt and could care less about touchy feely stories.
  • 1. Don't know, maybe about 5mph? Not all at once, but over a couple of years. Remember it's not just about their top end speed but in maintaining their speed for the duration of their spell and still being able to come back and bowl later spells. And also to recover from injury.
    2. Is the same true of baseball? The best batsman of my lifetime was Lara who was a touch taller than that but played in an era prior to IPL. There's now a premium on power - be it Gayle, Pietersen and Flintoff (who were the most expensive players at one IPL auction), Pollard or even smaller squat guys like Warner. Hitting sixes, particularly big sixes gets you noticed which gets you rewarded. The difference financially between being a county pro and being an international or IPL player are huge. If that may be what it takes to get over the line I'm sure that's a risk some highly competitive individuals are going to take.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 22,549
    1. Don't know, maybe about 5mph? Not all at once, but over a couple of years. Remember it's not just about their top end speed but in maintaining their speed for the duration of their spell and still being able to come back and bowl later spells. And also to recover from injury.
    2. Is the same true of baseball? The best batsman of my lifetime was Lara who was a touch taller than that but played in an era prior to IPL. There's now a premium on power - be it Gayle, Pietersen and Flintoff (who were the most expensive players at one IPL auction), Pollard or even smaller squat guys like Warner. Hitting sixes, particularly big sixes gets you noticed which gets you rewarded. The difference financially between being a county pro and being an international or IPL player are huge. If that may be what it takes to get over the line I'm sure that's a risk some highly competitive individuals are going to take.
    So first of all your expecting me to believe that a bowler will embark on a couple of years of drug taking on the hope that his bowling speed will increase. A bit of a gamble, particularly as I find it hard to see what actual physical change is going to make them faster. Pace bowlers don't tend to be especially muscular. If doping genuinely could add 5mph, then 4mph of that can be attained naturally.
    And as for stamina - it doesn't take extraordinary fitness - nothing that plenty of regular people could attain naturally.

    And as for hitting sixes. You do realise that players hit sixes before Twenty20, don't you? There's always been that sort of player. Drugs might make someone hit a six 90 yards instead of 85 (though good timing is far more important) but it won't turn someone like Cook into a slogger. Either you're that type of player from your teens or you're not. (And if you want to get a reputation as a six hitter, it's easier to go a play for a team with a small ground).
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • RoadPainterRoadPainter Posts: 375
    The best defence in cricket was the "he's from a small village" defence when Shoaib Akhtar and Mohammad Asif got busted for nandrolone. Somehow they got off on appeal with this. Asif later got deported Dubai by the police for being in possession of a banned substance. Still not to be deterred he then tested positive fro steriods in the IPL and was banned for a year. This was all before he got done for match-fixing
    And will Vinokourov be the barometer for every cyclist? Alleged fixer, doper, cheat, liar. The other drug was Hashish btw and if he wasn't an international cricketer, he might be dead. And there's never been a doubt that recreational drugs were abused in cricket.

    That's not a best defence and that board is pretty much the nadir in terms of morals on anything. If you'd followed the Shoaib case up, you'd have also notice Inzy saying that Shoaib had abused drugs regularly and him being reticent to drug tests.
    I'd be amazed if cricket didn't have a drug problem. Just a look at how batsmen have bulked up, how bowlers are pressured to bowl faster and for longer and how the relentless daily grind sounds like something out of Rough Ride. Asif was a very skilful bowler who was thought to be short of a yard of pace in the international game. There must be a huge temptation to juice in that situation.
    Except it's not a daily grind. In fact, it's easy to give statistics to prove exactly the opposite. The workload of a Freddie Trueman, at his peak, over a summer of cricket in terms of balls was twice the amount of balls that Anderson has ever and four times the amount he does nowadays. The fact is international cricketers are subject to least workloads and cricketers are subject to the minimum they've ever been. The CC is half the length it used to be. The counties taking precedence over England was one of the many reasons for being gash in the 90s.

    I think you'll have to verify the speed issue again. Marshall, Holding, Roberts, Garner, Croft, Donald, Lillee, Thommo, Waqar and even going back to the days of Lindwall, Miller and Typhoon Tyson and further in Larwood (though I haven't seen the last three live). All of them were far faster than any current test match bowler and some played all over the year (Garner in 82-83, Barbados, Somerset, South Australia, Barbados and then Somerset again, that's almost 2 straight years with tests in between). As it is, Lee was the epitome of overrated, yet he was blistering. Bichel, 10 mph slower was far better a bowler (if only he were given chances after a 1/200 effort that Lee was afforded) and McGrath, still head and shoulders above everyone to have played since 1990 and well slower than Lee.

    The biggest six at Lords according to all reliable prose, came from Albert Trott. His remains the only six to have cleared the Pavilion at Lords. Now changed dimensions won't make a difference as the square still remains where it ought to and down the ground, the length is the same. Not Gayle, not Simo O'Donnell, not Pollard nor Dhoni have come close to getting over the pavilion. This is not accounting for the change in bats. I know for a fact being an amateur the difference in my ancient mid 90s 2lb 7 oz Gray Nicolls and the 2lb 10oz bats nowadays. The life's shorter but the ball pings off it. A decade ago, hitting the handle of the bat wouldn't get you caught at mid on (Shan Twatto). They could be cheating, but there are many more plausible explanations and as yet none of the former pros have claimed dope is the cause for everything and not even the Australian sports commission claimed that there was any link to doping and cricket in their investigation, but they did drag the NRL and tried the AFL through the mud.

    Is there a temptation to dope? Yeah, of course. But being an epidemic or a drug problem is a tall claim. Unless we go by the clinic's or similar standards that if you're paid for sport you have to cheat. I don't subscribe by that.
    Pollard knocked it onto the roof when playing T20 against Middx a few years ago, referenced here:
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/cricket/twenty20/8687580/Kieron-Pollard-leads-Somerset-into-finals-day.html
  • RichN95 wrote:
    1. Don't know, maybe about 5mph? Not all at once, but over a couple of years. Remember it's not just about their top end speed but in maintaining their speed for the duration of their spell and still being able to come back and bowl later spells. And also to recover from injury.
    2. Is the same true of baseball? The best batsman of my lifetime was Lara who was a touch taller than that but played in an era prior to IPL. There's now a premium on power - be it Gayle, Pietersen and Flintoff (who were the most expensive players at one IPL auction), Pollard or even smaller squat guys like Warner. Hitting sixes, particularly big sixes gets you noticed which gets you rewarded. The difference financially between being a county pro and being an international or IPL player are huge. If that may be what it takes to get over the line I'm sure that's a risk some highly competitive individuals are going to take.
    So first of all your expecting me to believe that a bowler will embark on a couple of years of drug taking on the hope that his bowling speed will increase. A bit of a gamble, particularly as I find it hard to see what actual physical change is going to make them faster. Pace bowlers don't tend to be especially muscular. If doping genuinely could add 5mph, then 4mph of that can be attained naturally.
    And as for stamina - it doesn't take extraordinary fitness - nothing that plenty of regular people could attain naturally.

    And as for hitting sixes. You do realise that players hit sixes before Twenty20, don't you? There's always been that sort of player. Drugs might make someone hit a six 90 yards instead of 85 (though good timing is far more important) but it won't turn someone like Cook into a slogger. Either you're that type of player from your teens or you're not. (And if you want to get a reputation as a six hitter, it's easier to go a play for a team with a small ground).

    Those arguments are/were all true for baseball as well.

    I think we'll need to agree to differ.
  • No_Ta_DoctorNo_Ta_Doctor Posts: 9,289
    If I were looking for drugs in cricket I'd certainly be looking for cortisone in bowlers.

    I don't imagine Beefy was on the Clen though.
    “Road racing was over and the UCI had banned my riding positions on the track, so it was like ‘Jings, crivvens, help ma Boab, what do I do now? I know, I’ll go away and be depressed for 10 years’.”

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  • Richmond RacerRichmond Racer Posts: 8,561
    Deco's in a spot of Frank Schleck-style bother

    http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/nhl/ne ... doping.ap/
  • Dolan DriverDolan Driver Posts: 836
    http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-s ... -1.1463244

    Well colour me shocked! Track and Field sprinters off their heads on the bad stuff. :D

    Let see if the sporting press do a fair job on reporting this little mess or if they deem it even worthy of a mention in two or three days time? T&F seems to be in bad shape at the moment for PED abuse. Will it even try to get its house in order in the next 12 months? Kimmage needs to camp out on these guys front lawn for the next eighteen months or so and break their balls. It looks like he would have plenty of ammo to use against them.

    DD.
  • Dolan DriverDolan Driver Posts: 836
    I wasn't sure where to post this link, here or in the Mustafa Sayar thread.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/ju ... games-2020

    Twenty failed dope tests and very little fuss is made in the press. Chris Froome and SKY fail to fail their doping tests and the world is up in arms. Until proven otherwise, this is a fooking joke!

    DD.
  • Dolan DriverDolan Driver Posts: 836
    Here is a quote from an article on today's Irish Times website on the doping cases involving Tyson Gay and Astafa Powell that I think illustrates the point that there is one rule for cycling and another rule for all other sports when it comes to the question of doping;

    "Yet inevitably, the Gay and Powell revelations – and their apparent mishaps at either the hands of some previously trusted person or a tainted food supplement – have forced athletes such as Smyth to defend their own records, and the training methods they employ."

    Does anyone else think the highlighted section is a crock of censored ? Two track & field sprinters get caught for doping and it's portrayed as if they were fooled into taking the substances by someone else while Chris Froome has not, as yet, failed any dope test and he is being portrayed as a positive-dope-test-waiting-to-happen in the global media. Impartial and objective reporting is obviously not on the agenda for the modern sports writer.

    DD.
  • The double standard continues.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-s ... -1.1548858

    Fookin' joke.

    DD.
  • shinyhelmutshinyhelmut Posts: 1,369
    Hopefully the IAAF will intervene, but I'm not holding my breath.
  • Hopefully the IAAF will intervene, but I'm not holding my breath.



    Lets see. 'Insiders'..'warning that the recommendation...unlikely to be upheld by the IAAF or go unchallenged by WADA

    http://jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/2013 ... orts1.html
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 19,289
    The double standard continues.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-s ... -1.1548858

    Fookin' joke.

    DD.

    Hmmm, if she wrote it on the doping form when she took the test (as it says she did) then I'm not sure there's too much wrong with that...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ddraver wrote:
    The double standard continues.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-s ... -1.1548858

    Fookin' joke.

    DD.

    Hmmm, if she wrote it on the doping form when she took the test (as it says she did) then I'm not sure there's too much wrong with that...


    Well, that was what her side told Reuters when the news of her postive first broke. Who knows whether that actually ended up being the base of her defence.
  • The double standard continues.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-s ... -1.1548858

    Fookin' joke.

    DD.

    ''Sources close to Jamaican athletics said at the time the banned drug was contained in a cream that Campbell-Brown was using to treat a leg injury and which she had declared on her doping control form''

    Hmmm :lol:
  • bompingtonbompington Posts: 6,796
    The double standard continues.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other-s ... -1.1548858

    Fookin' joke.

    DD.

    ''Sources close to Jamaican athletics said at the time the banned drug was contained in a cream that Campbell-Brown was using to treat a leg injury and which she had declared on her doping control form''

    Hmmm :lol:
    What better way to cover illegitimate use than legitimate use? That's not to say she's guilty, but it certainly doesn't guarantee she's not.
  • Mikey23Mikey23 Posts: 5,028
    She rubbed a diuretic masking agent on her leg... Sounds plausible to me
  • A diuretic in a cream!!!?.. Sounds like BS to me- can't think of any reason for such a drug to be in a preparation like that....
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 22,549
    A diuretic in a cream!!!?.. Sounds like BS to me- can't think of any reason for such a drug to be in a preparation like that....
    Looking at the offending drug on Wiki it seems to my untrained eye that finding it in a cream makes as much sense as finding toothpaste in a doughnut. But then maybe she's going to the medical equivalent of Heston Blumenthal.
    Twitter: @RichN95
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