Drugs in other sports and the media.

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  • above_the_cowsabove_the_cows Posts: 10,890
    To challenge the idea that running clothing/tech has not improved much in years I would like to counter with the sports-bra as a piece of equipment that has revolutionised running for many, many people.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 19,289
    edited 2 November
    Reply guys be like...


    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ridgeriderridgerider Posts: 2,747





    ridgerider wrote:




    larkim wrote:

    It's the big leap that is raising the eyebrows isn't it. If we'd incrementally got to the VF4% stage over a 30 year period of time there'd be no issue.



    My understanding of basic physics and biomechanics isn't strong (!), but there's a lot of commentary around which almost makes it sounds as if the new shoes are providing some sort of powerboost in and of themselves, when in reality they don't and can't. The only aspect I've see which points a finger at them giving a true "mechanical advantage" is that the VF4%s are a much taller shoe than racing flats have been before, and that that "leg lenthening" for no additional mass is in itself an advantage straight out of the box. There was an estimate that that was worth 25% of the 4% advantage being touted.



    Up to now racing shoes have often been quite limited in terms of "spring" (i.e. comfortable foam), probably because there was an expectation that that foam compression / rebound cycle lost energy through heating etc, and if you made them really compliant you'd end up with a squishy foot that was difficult to run in. The VFs add the spring in the foam / energy return to a stiff carbon plate to sort out the squishiness. Contrary to what seems to get written, it seems that the carbon "spring" is hardly a factor in terms of absolute propulsion / efficiency terms - it just adds stiffness without adding weight to an already lightweight and high stacked shoe.

    Just need these

    buckingham-uk-may-plasterer-skims-high-ceiling-whilst-standing-stilts-skilled-plasterer-can-work-far-more-quickly-124216998.jpg


    Banned on our building sites...


    Who banned them and why?



    At a guess "health and safety" and because they'd rip your leg off at the knee if you had an accident in them.

    Your upper body would take a bigger hit than in a normal trip situation mainly I think.
    Half man, Half bike...and now more familiar with the work of Prostate Cancer UK
  • ridgeriderridgerider Posts: 2,747





    ridgerider wrote:




    larkim wrote:

    It's the big leap that is raising the eyebrows isn't it. If we'd incrementally got to the VF4% stage over a 30 year period of time there'd be no issue.



    My understanding of basic physics and biomechanics isn't strong (!), but there's a lot of commentary around which almost makes it sounds as if the new shoes are providing some sort of powerboost in and of themselves, when in reality they don't and can't. The only aspect I've see which points a finger at them giving a true "mechanical advantage" is that the VF4%s are a much taller shoe than racing flats have been before, and that that "leg lenthening" for no additional mass is in itself an advantage straight out of the box. There was an estimate that that was worth 25% of the 4% advantage being touted.



    Up to now racing shoes have often been quite limited in terms of "spring" (i.e. comfortable foam), probably because there was an expectation that that foam compression / rebound cycle lost energy through heating etc, and if you made them really compliant you'd end up with a squishy foot that was difficult to run in. The VFs add the spring in the foam / energy return to a stiff carbon plate to sort out the squishiness. Contrary to what seems to get written, it seems that the carbon "spring" is hardly a factor in terms of absolute propulsion / efficiency terms - it just adds stiffness without adding weight to an already lightweight and high stacked shoe.

    Just need these

    buckingham-uk-may-plasterer-skims-high-ceiling-whilst-standing-stilts-skilled-plasterer-can-work-far-more-quickly-124216998.jpg


    Banned on our building sites...


    Who banned them and why?



    At a guess "health and safety" and because they'd rip your leg off at the knee if you had an accident in them.

    Your upper body would take a bigger hit than in a normal trip situation mainly I think.
    Half man, Half bike...and now more familiar with the work of Prostate Cancer UK
  • blazing_saddlesblazing_saddles Posts: 13,558
    This story seems to have slipped under the radar with the forum changeover.
    An Olympian haul if for personal use only.
    The Dutch Athletics Union are shocked because as we all know, the Dutch don't dope any more.


    https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/general/athletics/madiea-ghafoor-drug-trafficking-jail-sentence-ecstasy-crystal-meth-sprinter-olympics-a9185496.html
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • timothywtimothyw Posts: 2,415
    LOL she thought she was carrying doping materials!

    Well that's ok then, just the 52kg of dope and twelve thousand Euros
  • larkimlarkim Posts: 2,232
    It's definitely shooting season on Nike at the moment. Funny how athletes like (white, British) Laura Muir who are Nike sponsored never seem to raise the hackles in the same way that (black, refugee) Farah do in the UK press...

    Though in fairness, in the US the beating up of Nike (fuelled by teams with other shoe sponsors) is just as vitriolic at the moment.
    2015 Canyon Nerve AL 6.0 (son #1's)
    2011 Specialized Hardrock Sport Disc (son #3s)
    2013 Decathlon Triban 3 (red) (mine)
    2019 Hoy Bonaly 26" Disc (son #2s)
    2018 Voodoo Bizango (mine)
    2018 Voodoo Maji (wife's)
  • LongshotLongshot Posts: 394
    larkim said:

    It's definitely shooting season on Nike at the moment. Funny how athletes like (white, British) Laura Muir who are Nike sponsored never seem to raise the hackles in the same way that (black, refugee) Farah do in the UK press...

    To be fair, Laura Muir hardly grabs the headlines in the same way given that many people's reaction to her name would be "Who?".

    You can fool some of the people all of the time. Concentrate on those people.
  • larkimlarkim Posts: 2,232
    Maybe I just live in a T&F bubble, but she's one of the world's best and lauded by the BBC as the star performer every time she races, so I don't think her recognition is as lowly as you think it is. But I might be wrong. Havnig said that, the point equally applies to those who follow T&F a lot, they gloss over the Nike athletes that they "like".
    2015 Canyon Nerve AL 6.0 (son #1's)
    2011 Specialized Hardrock Sport Disc (son #3s)
    2013 Decathlon Triban 3 (red) (mine)
    2019 Hoy Bonaly 26" Disc (son #2s)
    2018 Voodoo Bizango (mine)
    2018 Voodoo Maji (wife's)
  • bompingtonbompington Posts: 6,796
    larkim said:

    It's definitely shooting season on Nike at the moment. Funny how athletes like (white, British) Laura Muir who are Nike sponsored never seem to raise the hackles in the same way that (black, refugee) Farah do in the UK press...

    You are basically accusing everyone of racism because a black athlete gets a hard time. But surely it's not so much Nike as Salazar that's the issue?
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 7,712
    I mean I have never heard of Laura Muir, that I can recall. The only runners I can associate offhand with Nike Oregon Project are Farah and Rupp.

    Although if Kipchoge was wearing these Nike fancy shoes everyone is making such a big deal about?? I guess he is just Nike sponsored.

    So I would say: yes, you live in a T&F bubble :wink:
  • amrushtonamrushton Posts: 572

    larkim said:

    It's definitely shooting season on Nike at the moment. Funny how athletes like (white, British) Laura Muir who are Nike sponsored never seem to raise the hackles in the same way that (black, refugee) Farah do in the UK press...

    You are basically accusing everyone of racism because a black athlete gets a hard time. But surely it's not so much Nike as Salazar that's the issue?
    But is Salazar not an employee of Nike running a program that they finance?
  • bompingtonbompington Posts: 6,796
    amrushton said:

    larkim said:

    It's definitely shooting season on Nike at the moment. Funny how athletes like (white, British) Laura Muir who are Nike sponsored never seem to raise the hackles in the same way that (black, refugee) Farah do in the UK press...

    You are basically accusing everyone of racism because a black athlete gets a hard time. But surely it's not so much Nike as Salazar that's the issue?
    But is Salazar not an employee of Nike running a program that they finance?
    But what's that got to do with other athletes sponsored by Nike, who have different coaches, train in different places and might just possibly have Nike as a sponsor because they're one of the biggest and richest companies in sport?
  • Interesting that Sifan Hassan had the figure of suspicion pointed at her for her recent performances during the World champs, by none other than Laura Muir.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/oct/05/sifan-hassan-wins-1500m-laura-muir-fades-world-championships-2019

    Irony much?

    Meanwhile another Salazar/Nike prodigy, German bronze medalist, Konstanze Klosterhalfen, has seemingly been unaffected by any of the bad press, despite her remarkable transformation.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • ProssPross Posts: 21,041
    larkim said:

    It's definitely shooting season on Nike at the moment. Funny how athletes like (white, British) Laura Muir who are Nike sponsored never seem to raise the hackles in the same way that (black, refugee) Farah do in the UK press...

    Though in fairness, in the US the beating up of Nike (fuelled by teams with other shoe sponsors) is just as vitriolic at the moment.

    That's a stretch. There's no reason to be suspicious of any athlete based on the clothing they wear. As others have said, the Farah link is Salazar and the fact that Nike funded that programme isn't particularly relevant. It would be like suggesting any cyclist paid to wear a Festina watch was dubious because the team got busted.
  • awaveyawavey Posts: 2,143
    I hate T&F and even Ive heard of Laura Muir, unlike most of the non celebs going to get stuck in a hotel near an Australian forest
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 22,552
    edited 12 November
    awavey said:

    I hate T&F and even Ive heard of Laura Muir, unlike most of the non celebs going to get stuck in a hotel near an Australian forest

    She has a couple of European gold medals to her name (which is good) - as opposed to Farah's 10 Olympics and World Golds

    Or Caitlyn Jenner's Olympic Gold medal
    Or James Haskell's 79 international rugby caps
    Or Ian Wright's Premier league, FA Cups, Cup Winner's Cup (and Intertoto Cup B) )
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 19,289
    Just to add to the dataset, ambivalent with T&F, watch the 'lympics and whatever it was on telly last month.

    Name sounds, vaguely familiar but I couldn't tell you who she is or what she races. May have taken a stab at her being a lioness..?
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • larkimlarkim Posts: 2,232
    Probably just my T&F bubble, but in that world Nike are currently being seen as demons from all aspects. Plenty of "old skool" runners who swear they'll never wear Nike, that they have a malefluous influence on the sport overall, and that they are complicit in doping (or at least turn a blind eye, citing NOP, Gatlin etc).

    But it is definitely selective - if your fav athlete is a Nike athlete, it gets glossed over, providing you can demonstrate "old skool" sensibilities.
    2015 Canyon Nerve AL 6.0 (son #1's)
    2011 Specialized Hardrock Sport Disc (son #3s)
    2013 Decathlon Triban 3 (red) (mine)
    2019 Hoy Bonaly 26" Disc (son #2s)
    2018 Voodoo Bizango (mine)
    2018 Voodoo Maji (wife's)
  • bobmcstuffbobmcstuff Posts: 7,712
    larkim said:

    Probably just my T&F bubble, but in that world Nike are currently being seen as demons from all aspects. Plenty of "old skool" runners who swear they'll never wear Nike, that they have a malefluous influence on the sport overall, and that they are complicit in doping (or at least turn a blind eye, citing NOP, Gatlin etc).

    But it is definitely selective - if your fav athlete is a Nike athlete, it gets glossed over, providing you can demonstrate "old skool" sensibilities.

    Well that's no different to cycling or any other sport - people's tolerance for Sky/Ineos varies greatly for similar reasons, and everyone loves Quickstep even though they win everything because they have a lot of well-liked riders (both examples amongst other things...)
  • r0bhr0bh Posts: 1,406

    Interesting that Sifan Hassan had the figure of suspicion pointed at her for her recent performances during the World champs, by none other than Laura Muir.

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/oct/05/sifan-hassan-wins-1500m-laura-muir-fades-world-championships-2019

    Irony much?

    Not really. Hasan was coached by Salazar; Muir is not and never has been

  • awaveyawavey Posts: 2,143
    RichN95. said:

    awavey said:

    I hate T&F and even Ive heard of Laura Muir, unlike most of the non celebs going to get stuck in a hotel near an Australian forest

    She has a couple of European gold medals to her name (which is good) - as opposed to Farah's 10 Olympics and World Golds

    Or Caitlyn Jenner's Olympic Gold medal
    Or James Haskell's 79 international rugby caps
    Or Ian Wright's Premier league, FA Cups, Cup Winner's Cup (and Intertoto Cup B) )

    tbf I thought she'd won more than that, but that might just be the Beeb bigging her up, whenever I catch whatever wall to wall coverage theyve devoted to running,and I never find out how she gets on as I channel hop away, and I did say most of the non celebs :p I didnt even know Martin Kemp had a son,let alone was a radio dj but we dont get Capital radio in the sticks, though fair cop Id no idea who James Haskell was
  • amrushtonamrushton Posts: 572
    various escapades this week in other sports. Russia were to the fore (as usual)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/50569813

    and the woman about to take the £200k pa job at UK Athletics who was let down by her husband (can see it being frosty in their house this Christmas)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/50567433
  • webboowebboo Posts: 2,047
    amrushton said:

    various escapades this week in other sports. Russia were to the fore (as usual)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/50569813

    and the woman about to take the £200k pa job at UK Athletics who was let down by her husband (can see it being frosty in their house this Christmas)

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/50567433

    Given he already has a life time ban from teaching for his behaviour I can’t imagine many candlelight suppers round at theirs.
  • larkimlarkim Posts: 2,232
    Funny, I see that case very differently from others.

    She is the one at fault - she knew he'd been banned from teaching and should have ensured absolute transparency at the athletics club where he was coaching etc.

    The circumstances in the public domain can be read either as he is a lucky man to have avoided a criminal conviction because the case against him wasn't proved, but he's a real danger OR he was a naive teacher who made a couple of (big) mistakes in handling a situation with a 15yo girl which are comlpetely unacceptable from a teaching profession point of view but which are a long, long way short of the sort of nefarious acts or behaviours which some are imputing to him.

    Having had some experience of seeing cases of teachers banned for life in safeguarding situations, I can say that the profession sets a very very high standard for how it expects teachers to behave, and there are plenty of transgressions for which lifetime bans are dished out where we would all be happy to still let the former teacher have full and uniterrupted 1:1 time with our kids, knowing they are safe in their care.

    That doesn't fit the Daily Mail / Matt Lawton narrative though. My sense is his offences were closer to the latter than the former situation, but ultimately that isn't particularly relevant in ZHPs case - she's got to uphold the highest standards, and if there wasn't utter transparency in Coventry because she brushed something under the carpet, then that really undermines her capability to lead UKA and she's rightly been ditched.
    2015 Canyon Nerve AL 6.0 (son #1's)
    2011 Specialized Hardrock Sport Disc (son #3s)
    2013 Decathlon Triban 3 (red) (mine)
    2019 Hoy Bonaly 26" Disc (son #2s)
    2018 Voodoo Bizango (mine)
    2018 Voodoo Maji (wife's)
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