Drugs in other sports and the media.

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  • timothywtimothyw Posts: 2,478
    I think it's fair to say that he could have gone a bit quicker under those conditions, as you say, given how fresh he looked at the end - there was a brief spell in the midpoint where he came slightly behind the pace but otherwise running at a steady pace and completely sheltered from the wind, will be considerably easier than an actual marathon race, where the pace will surge and where much of the time you are setting your own pace and in the wind.

    More impressive this weekend was Kosgei's new womens record, four minutes off her previous best, and a minute and a half off Paula's record (which let's be honest, lots of people thought suspicious, particularly in combination with the suspicious bio passport revelations a couple of years back...)

    Certainly we seem to be in a new era, where, for whatever reason, feats previously thought near impossible can happen twice in one weekend.

    Is it the new shoes, like those swimming costumes a few years back providing a big technical advantage? Is it these new lactate buffer products that Lance keeps shilling on his youtube? Or is it a new EPO type drug?
  • shinyhelmutshinyhelmut Posts: 1,338
    phreak wrote:
    Don't a lot of marathons employ pace makers for a similar reason? Granted, they perhaps aren't quite so blatant as in this attempt, but still. What seemed most remarkable was just how fresh he looked at the end. Looked like he could have gone round again.

    They do, and Berlin did when Kipchoge beat the world record last year but they had all dropped off earlier than planned (by 25K I think) so nearly half of the race was run solo. He looked equally fresh afterwards, sprinting from the finish line and leaping (literally) into his coach's arms.

    Likewise Bekele, who came within 2 secs of the record this year raan the bulk of the race solo, having been dropped by the pacemakers' group then running through the remains of the field in the last 10K or so.

    Personally I'd love to see Bekele, Kipchoge and Kamworor all lined up at the same marathon rather than all racing separately. Maybe London next year...

    Meanwhile Sir Mo finished closer to the winning lady than he did to the winning man, and Galen Rupp dropped out. I don't think this Oregon Project debacle has helped their preparation.
  • shinyhelmutshinyhelmut Posts: 1,338
    Of course Briged Kosgei and Lawrence Cherono, the 2 winners at Chicago, are both managed by Frederico Rosa, who has been associated with a number of banned Kenyan athletes.
  • sherersherer Posts: 2,306
    i still dont get this marthon thing. Guy is allowed to break the rules and therefore breaks a record, but it wont count as he broke the rules.

    In that case I might as well get sponsorship from Amgem and Specialised and ride Le Tour a week early jacked up on EPO and on an e-bike
  • sherer wrote:
    i still dont get this marthon thing. Guy is allowed to break the rules and therefore breaks a record, but it wont count as he broke the rules.

    In that case I might as well get sponsorship from Amgem and Specialised and ride Le Tour a week early jacked up on EPO and on an e-bike

    Its just to demonstrate that the human body can do what no one thought it could. An amazing feat. I wouldn't be surprised if having been broken once there will be a slew of sub 2 hour performances now. Much like the bannister 4 minute mile.
  • Gatlin did the 100m in 9.45 seconds but that didn't count because of a tail wind. Not much different, they are both insanely fast despite conditions that make them ineligible for records.

    Of course, 2:01:39 is still insanely fast.
    and then the next thing you know
  • sherer wrote:
    i still dont get this marthon thing. Guy is allowed to break the rules and therefore breaks a record, but it wont count as he broke the rules.

    In that case I might as well get sponsorship from Amgem and Specialised and ride Le Tour a week early jacked up on EPO and on an e-bike

    He doesn't break a record. It is a milestone in human achievement but it is not a world record, because it is in breach of the rules.
  • m.r.m.m.r.m. Posts: 1,614
    timothyw wrote:
    Is it the new shoes, like those swimming costumes a few years back providing a big technical advantage? Is it these new lactate buffer products that Lance keeps shilling on his youtube? Or is it a new EPO type drug?
    Think the carbon plates in the new shoes do work somewhat similar to the famous Oscar Pistorius carbon blades. They are supposed to improve running efficiency by more than 6%, so it's only logical that we will see sub 2 hour marathon in real world conditions in the next few years.

    Did Kipchoge use a Keto drink like Alaphilippe and others during the TDF on this try? Would only seem logical again to use an additional fuel source.
    PTP Champion 2019
  • inseineinseine Posts: 5,571
    sherer wrote:
    i still dont get this marthon thing. Guy is allowed to break the rules and therefore breaks a record, but it wont count as he broke the rules.

    In that case I might as well get sponsorship from Amgem and Specialised and ride Le Tour a week early jacked up on EPO and on an e-bike
    Surely he would only have broken the rules if he's stated he was competing under a set of rules he'd then broken? Your analogy doesn't work because there is already ebike racing, but they don't do the TdF!
  • sherer wrote:
    i still dont get this marthon thing. Guy is allowed to break the rules and therefore breaks a record, but it wont count as he broke the rules.

    In that case I might as well get sponsorship from Amgem and Specialised and ride Le Tour a week early jacked up on EPO and on an e-bike

    Noone's stopping you.
    and then the next thing you know
  • timothywtimothyw Posts: 2,478
    m.r.m. wrote:
    timothyw wrote:
    Is it the new shoes, like those swimming costumes a few years back providing a big technical advantage? Is it these new lactate buffer products that Lance keeps shilling on his youtube? Or is it a new EPO type drug?
    Think the carbon plates in the new shoes do work somewhat similar to the famous Oscar Pistorius carbon blades. They are supposed to improve running efficiency by more than 6%, so it's only logical that we will see sub 2 hour marathon in real world conditions in the next few years.

    Did Kipchoge use a Keto drink like Alaphilippe and others during the TDF on this try? Would only seem logical again to use an additional fuel source.
    That could certainly have been another factor that helped the performance - I mean, if you add up bouncy shoes, ketone energy drinks, lactate buffer cream, all advances that a basically legal then certainly it seems plausible that the performance is clean (or at least, no more dirty than any of the previous records).
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 22,647
    sherer wrote:
    i still dont get this marthon thing. Guy is allowed to break the rules and therefore breaks a record, but it wont count as he broke the rules.

    In that case I might as well get sponsorship from Amgem and Specialised and ride Le Tour a week early jacked up on EPO and on an e-bike
    Rules are all arbitrary anyway. Much has changed since Philippides set the original marathon record in 490BC. The distance varied for the first eight Olympics.

    Distance is arbitrary measurement and time is measured in arbitrary way. But people know what a marathon is and two hours is nice round target.

    Think of it like a cycling hour record. There are many variations, from Campanaert's to Boardman's, the Merckx version and Recumbents. They all have their different sets of rules. Some restrict innovation, others don't. You could do a 'no-rules' version if you please. But ultimately they're all someone pedalling for an hour.


    (Speaking of which, I wonder if Ineos may revisit the Boardman record and come up with a similar cycling hour challenge. "60 in 60" or similar)
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • That's a 10% increase!

    Could be done drafted, I guess!
  • shinyhelmutshinyhelmut Posts: 1,338
    That could certainly have been another factor that helped the performance - I mean, if you add up bouncy shoes, ketone energy drinks, lactate buffer cream, all advances that a basically legal then certainly it seems plausible that the performance is clean (or at least, no more dirty than any of the previous records).

    Sort of an aggregation of marginal gains. Maybe someone should try that in cycling?
  • The weekend's athletics records were just too tasty a bone for dogged Dan to put his football boot into, once again.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/athletics/50043518
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • ProssPross Posts: 21,177
    m.r.m. wrote:
    timothyw wrote:
    Is it the new shoes, like those swimming costumes a few years back providing a big technical advantage? Is it these new lactate buffer products that Lance keeps shilling on his youtube? Or is it a new EPO type drug?
    Think the carbon plates in the new shoes do work somewhat similar to the famous Oscar Pistorius carbon blades. They are supposed to improve running efficiency by more than 6%, so it's only logical that we will see sub 2 hour marathon in real world conditions in the next few years.

    Did Kipchoge use a Keto drink like Alaphilippe and others during the TDF on this try? Would only seem logical again to use an additional fuel source.

    That's the key, they improve efficiency (providing your running form works with them) but mainly from the cushioning effect they provide so your legs stay fresher for longer and your form doesn't go out the window. The carbon plates have a bit of a spring effect but the cushioning is the key. Whilst the version he ran in this time are brand new the previous version, which is the second / third iteration, has been developed since the original Breaking 2 attempt are widely available. Pretty much everyone at the pointy end of local distance races are wearing them and whilst they are thought of as eye wateringly expensive for a pair of running shoes by most people (especially as the first version only lasted around 100 miles or so for some people) they are a lot more obtainable than a lot of the high tech equipment in other sports.
  • sherersherer Posts: 2,306
    sherer wrote:
    i still dont get this marthon thing. Guy is allowed to break the rules and therefore breaks a record, but it wont count as he broke the rules.

    In that case I might as well get sponsorship from Amgem and Specialised and ride Le Tour a week early jacked up on EPO and on an e-bike

    Noone's stopping you.
    im getting the sponsorship sorted now.

    I'll all be drafting the whole way too :lol::lol:
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 22,647
    Pross wrote:
    That's the key, they improve efficiency (providing your running form works with them) but mainly from the cushioning effect they provide so your legs stay fresher for longer and your form doesn't go out the window. The carbon plates have a bit of a spring effect but the cushioning is the key. Whilst the version he ran in this time are brand new the previous version, which is the second / third iteration, has been developed since the original Breaking 2 attempt are widely available. Pretty much everyone at the pointy end of local distance races are wearing them and whilst they are thought of as eye wateringly expensive for a pair of running shoes by most people (especially as the first version only lasted around 100 miles or so for some people) they are a lot more obtainable than a lot of the high tech equipment in other sports.
    They cost £240 a pair. Which, for the level of runner who would need the gains, is not much.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 19,324
    I mean...I have owned bike shoes that cost that much* and, let's be honest, a good rider I am not...

    *I didnt pay RRP obvs, but we all know wiggle sales arent THAT good
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ProssPross Posts: 21,177
    RichN95 wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    That's the key, they improve efficiency (providing your running form works with them) but mainly from the cushioning effect they provide so your legs stay fresher for longer and your form doesn't go out the window. The carbon plates have a bit of a spring effect but the cushioning is the key. Whilst the version he ran in this time are brand new the previous version, which is the second / third iteration, has been developed since the original Breaking 2 attempt are widely available. Pretty much everyone at the pointy end of local distance races are wearing them and whilst they are thought of as eye wateringly expensive for a pair of running shoes by most people (especially as the first version only lasted around 100 miles or so for some people) they are a lot more obtainable than a lot of the high tech equipment in other sports.
    They cost £240 a pair. Which, for the level of runner who would need the gains, is not much.

    I almost bought some a couple of months back, I tried a pair and they feel so comfortable, but thought I'd look a censored running my pace in them. Then I decided I didn't care and if they allow me to preserve my legs longer and recover more quickly then why not? I think Santa might be bringing me a pair of I'm a good boy. After all, I'm out there 75% longer than the likes of Kipchoge so they're more benefit to me than those part-timers!
  • m.r.m.m.r.m. Posts: 1,614
    Probably worth waiting for a non Kermit green, non pink version (albeit I personally like pink). :wink:
    PTP Champion 2019
  • ProssPross Posts: 21,177
    m.r.m. wrote:
    Probably worth waiting for a non Kermit green, non pink version (albeit I personally like pink). :wink:

    I know, that's what put me off originally - it's too obvious that you're running slowly in very expensive shoes. I bet if more people like me were seen running in them they would make them more subtle to avoid the reputation getting tarnished :lol:
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 19,324
    I confess I feel more comfortable about the shoes knowing they are available to Joe Ordinary...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ProssPross Posts: 21,177
    ddraver wrote:
    I confess I feel more comfortable about the shoes knowing they are available to Joe Ordinary...

    A cynic might say that the primary purpose of the sub 2 project was to market the equipment and the shoes in particular!
  • shinyhelmutshinyhelmut Posts: 1,338
    Pross wrote:
    A cynic might say that the primary purpose of the sub 2 project was to market the equipment and the shoes in particular!

    What else would it be about?
  • larkimlarkim Posts: 2,252
    m.r.m. wrote:
    timothyw wrote:
    Is it the new shoes, like those swimming costumes a few years back providing a big technical advantage? Is it these new lactate buffer products that Lance keeps shilling on his youtube? Or is it a new EPO type drug?
    Think the carbon plates in the new shoes do work somewhat similar to the famous Oscar Pistorius carbon blades. They are supposed to improve running efficiency by more than 6%, so it's only logical that we will see sub 2 hour marathon in real world conditions in the next few years.

    Did Kipchoge use a Keto drink like Alaphilippe and others during the TDF on this try? Would only seem logical again to use an additional fuel source.
    The big difference to the pistorius blades etc is that Kipchoge has the full weight of his lower leg to be swung through before the effect of any carbon springs can come into effect. By all accounts according to "proper science", the real benefit is actually the ?pebax? foam used in the shoes where the energy store / return happens. But when that foam is paired with the carbon plates that add rigidity to the foam structure, the effect is enhanced / optimised.

    Not really for this thread, but at some point the IAAF needs to get to grips with this tech and set some limits on it before we just end up in a spiral of increasing tech and records tumbling.
    2015 Canyon Nerve AL 6.0 (son #1's)
    2011 Specialized Hardrock Sport Disc (son #3s)
    2013 Decathlon Triban 3 (red) (mine)
    2019 Hoy Bonaly 26" Disc (son #2s)
    2018 Voodoo Bizango (mine)
    2018 Voodoo Maji (wife's)
  • larkimlarkim Posts: 2,252
    Pross wrote:
    RichN95 wrote:
    Pross wrote:
    That's the key, they improve efficiency (providing your running form works with them) but mainly from the cushioning effect they provide so your legs stay fresher for longer and your form doesn't go out the window. The carbon plates have a bit of a spring effect but the cushioning is the key. Whilst the version he ran in this time are brand new the previous version, which is the second / third iteration, has been developed since the original Breaking 2 attempt are widely available. Pretty much everyone at the pointy end of local distance races are wearing them and whilst they are thought of as eye wateringly expensive for a pair of running shoes by most people (especially as the first version only lasted around 100 miles or so for some people) they are a lot more obtainable than a lot of the high tech equipment in other sports.
    They cost £240 a pair. Which, for the level of runner who would need the gains, is not much.

    I almost bought some a couple of months back, I tried a pair and they feel so comfortable, but thought I'd look a censored running my pace in them. Then I decided I didn't care and if they allow me to preserve my legs longer and recover more quickly then why not? I think Santa might be bringing me a pair of I'm a good boy. After all, I'm out there 75% longer than the likes of Kipchoge so they're more benefit to me than those part-timers!
    I'm resisting them on moral grounds :-) They might mean I get beaten in races by people that I would usually finish ahead of, but I've worked hard to bring my 10k / HM / Marathon times down and it seems a little daft to just bring those times again by spending £240 on shoes. Perversly, I might be more enthusaistic about buying them as a training shoe if they kept me fresher for longer so I could do more miles in training, but on race day it is just me and my legs against the clock and I don't want any artificial boosts.
    2015 Canyon Nerve AL 6.0 (son #1's)
    2011 Specialized Hardrock Sport Disc (son #3s)
    2013 Decathlon Triban 3 (red) (mine)
    2019 Hoy Bonaly 26" Disc (son #2s)
    2018 Voodoo Bizango (mine)
    2018 Voodoo Maji (wife's)
  • fenixfenix Posts: 4,799
    Sadly those £240 shoes won't last very many miles. I don't think theres' a cycling equivalent ? Maybe an ultralight tub ?
  • ddraverddraver Posts: 19,324
    That's a good point too, I have had the bike shoes for many years...

    I was under the impression (based on nothing I confess) that Eliud's were unique uber-shoes
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • keef66keef66 Posts: 13,286
    ddraver wrote:
    That's a good point too, I have had the bike shoes for many years...

    I was under the impression (based on nothing I confess) that Eliud's were unique uber-shoes

    Now I know censored all about running, but I think using Uber is probably cheating...
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