Drugs in other sports and the media.

Moontrane

M.R.M. wrote:

Canelo Alvarez does the Alberto Contador

https://twitter.com/CanvasBoxing/status ... n-fight%2F

You saw it here first, folks: Clenelo Alterol

ddraver

Rick Chasey wrote:

Never forget the context of Russians and sport. (decent thread; worth reading till the end).

https://twitter.com/SlavaMalamud/status ... 8315918336

...I mean...I'm not surprised but....Wow!

ddraver

Rick Chasey wrote:

Never forget the context of Russians and sport. (decent thread; worth reading till the end).

https://twitter.com/SlavaMalamud/status ... 8315918336

...I mean...I'm not surprised but....Wow!

dolan_driver

Here is an interesting article on Mo Farah.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/other- ... 12511.html

If this much muck was thrown at Wiggins or Froome, there'd be World War III! Teflon Mo, on the other hand, just keeps on truckin'.

DD.

timoid.

ddraver wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Never forget the context of Russians and sport. (decent thread; worth reading till the end).

https://twitter.com/SlavaMalamud/status ... 8315918336

...I mean...I'm not surprised but....Wow!

Some thread. But you have to be aware how different Russians' view on things can be. Most will see nothing wrong or strange about this or deny it is even happening.

rick_chasey

Timoid. wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Never forget the context of Russians and sport. (decent thread; worth reading till the end).

https://twitter.com/SlavaMalamud/status ... 8315918336

...I mean...I'm not surprised but....Wow!

Some thread. But you have to be aware how different Russians' view on things can be. Most will see nothing wrong or strange about this or deny it is even happening.

In Russia, the greater good (as defined by its leaders) > people's lives.

Was the same with the Tsar, was the same with the Soviets, is the same under Putin.

larkim

Dolan Driver wrote:

Here is an interesting article on Mo Farah.

https://www.independent.ie/sport/other- ... 12511.html

If this much muck was thrown at Wiggins or Froome, there'd be World War III! Teflon Mo, on the other hand, just keeps on truckin'.

DD.

It's a garbage article tbh, the way it starts tells you all you need to know about the author's preconceptions about his views on Farah.

This is the guy that asked Farah a question about Jama Aden a few years ago, got a fairly non-specific answer (Mo's not a good press conference guy) and turned it into a story about him denying he'd ever met Aden (which the transcript of the interview very much doesn't support).

For balance, there's also the recent reports that Farah has sued Ben Bloom for libel over reporting that he was a "likely doper" according to the IAAF - reportedly settled out of court in farah's favour with Bloom having to put a fixed message on his twitter feed pronouncing Farah as clean.

http://www.letsrun.com/news/2018/03/mo- ... ettlement/

dolan_driver

I still think Mo is a bit dodgy, PEDs-wise. Hopefully the truth will come out in the end.

DD.

Pross

Dolan Driver wrote:

I still think Mo is a bit dodgy, PEDs-wise. Hopefully the truth will come out in the end.

DD.

Therein lies the problem. What if he is clean? How will the truth come out then? If he never gets ‘found out’ will you just see it as the truth having never come out or at some point after his retirement accept that maybe your hunch was wrong and he was always clean?

dolan_driver

It's all the little bits of circumstantial evidence that, when added together, make things look a bit suspicious. He was pack-filler until he changed to a new training group and becomes a world-beater mid-career. Yes, if he doesn't fail a test, he might make it into retirement with an untarnished reputation and we will never know if all the circumstantial evidence truly pointed to anything untoward. I am sceptical at the moment.

DD.

Pross

Dolan Driver wrote:

It's all the little bits of circumstantial evidence that, when added together, make things look a bit suspicious. He was pack-filler until he changed to a new training group and becomes a world-beater mid-career. Yes, if he doesn't fail a test, he might make it into retirement with an untarnished reputation and we will never know if all the circumstantial evidence truly pointed to anything untoward. I am sceptical at the moment.

DD.

So when you said ‘hopefully the truth will come out in the end’ what you meant was ‘hopefully he’ll eventually get caught to confirm my own suspicions’? Otherwise it’s a case of we’ll never know if the evidence pointed to anything untoward. Don’t you think it unfair that athletes who suffer allegations based on innuendo and circumstantial ‘evidence’ are either proven to be cheats or not proven to be cheats but never, apparently, considered innocent?

Dorset_Boy

Mo is by far the best racer at 5k & 10k over the last 6-8 years, but in terms of speed over those distnces, isn't he way off world record pace?

Pross

32nd at 1500m, nowhere at 3000m, 64th at 5000m, 28th at 10,000m and 92nd at half marathon on the all-time list. He excels at winning races that are slower and more tactical. No-one considers that an improvement under Salazar could be due to good coaching helping him adapt his racing to suit his strengths.

timothyw

Dorset Boy wrote:

Mo is by far the best racer at 5k & 10k over the last 6-8 years, but in terms of speed over those distnces, isn't he way off world record pace?

Yeah, there's lots of talk about why that is - often around the fact that the top athletes have been drawn to Marathon where the big money now is, instead of on the track (and on the Marathon record times continue to improve, where the 10km record has stood since 2005).

Other speculation inevitably comes back to effectiveness of drug testing meaning athletes are now running clean(er).

Either way it seems unlikely Mo in 201x form would beat the best athletes in 200x, similarly you doubt Froome would beat Armstrong without something a bit stronger than salbutamol to help ;-)

dinyull

Pross wrote:

Dolan Driver wrote:

It's all the little bits of circumstantial evidence that, when added together, make things look a bit suspicious. He was pack-filler until he changed to a new training group and becomes a world-beater mid-career. Yes, if he doesn't fail a test, he might make it into retirement with an untarnished reputation and we will never know if all the circumstantial evidence truly pointed to anything untoward. I am sceptical at the moment.

DD.

So when you said ‘hopefully the truth will come out in the end’ what you meant was ‘hopefully he’ll eventually get caught to confirm my own suspicions’? Otherwise it’s a case of we’ll never know if the evidence pointed to anything untoward. Don’t you think it unfair that athletes who suffer allegations based on innuendo and circumstantial ‘evidence’ are either proven to be cheats or not proven to be cheats but never, apparently, considered innocent?

What about the bit where the IAAF considers him probably cheating? Or his pi$$ poor excuse for a missed test?

This isn't a go at you Pross, but the double standards on here re. doping are amazing at times. British and it's all fair game for some.

dinyull

TimothyW wrote:

Dorset Boy wrote:

Mo is by far the best racer at 5k & 10k over the last 6-8 years, but in terms of speed over those distnces, isn't he way off world record pace?

Other speculation inevitably comes back to effectiveness of drug testing meaning athletes are now running clean(er).

Either way it seems unlikely Mo in 201x form would beat the best athletes in 200x, similarly you doubt Froome would beat Armstrong without something a bit stronger than salbutamol to help ;-)

Quite.

There was a piece I read a while back comparing Contador's TT times from pre 2009 to after 2009 - spoiler, he was a chunk slower.

kingstongraham

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... d-Cup.html

Hahaha. From the pictures, it looks like the asthma test is "can you ride a bike?".

Dorset_Boy

It might help if the jornos explained the difference between asthma (that the wheezy kid has) and Exercise Induced Asthma.....

sherer

Dinyull wrote:

Pross wrote:

Dolan Driver wrote:

It's all the little bits of circumstantial evidence that, when added together, make things look a bit suspicious. He was pack-filler until he changed to a new training group and becomes a world-beater mid-career. Yes, if he doesn't fail a test, he might make it into retirement with an untarnished reputation and we will never know if all the circumstantial evidence truly pointed to anything untoward. I am sceptical at the moment.

DD.

So when you said ‘hopefully the truth will come out in the end’ what you meant was ‘hopefully he’ll eventually get caught to confirm my own suspicions’? Otherwise it’s a case of we’ll never know if the evidence pointed to anything untoward. Don’t you think it unfair that athletes who suffer allegations based on innuendo and circumstantial ‘evidence’ are either proven to be cheats or not proven to be cheats but never, apparently, considered innocent?

What about the bit where the IAAF considers him probably cheating? Or his pi$$ poor excuse for a missed test?

This isn't a go at you Pross, but the double standards on here re. doping are amazing at times. British and it's all fair game for some.

Where is the link toback up this IAAF cheating info ? Cant see them calling out a top star as it would be a commercial disaster for them

dinyull

sherer wrote:

Dinyull wrote:

Pross wrote:

Dolan Driver wrote:

It's all the little bits of circumstantial evidence that, when added together, make things look a bit suspicious. He was pack-filler until he changed to a new training group and becomes a world-beater mid-career. Yes, if he doesn't fail a test, he might make it into retirement with an untarnished reputation and we will never know if all the circumstantial evidence truly pointed to anything untoward. I am sceptical at the moment.

DD.

So when you said ‘hopefully the truth will come out in the end’ what you meant was ‘hopefully he’ll eventually get caught to confirm my own suspicions’? Otherwise it’s a case of we’ll never know if the evidence pointed to anything untoward. Don’t you think it unfair that athletes who suffer allegations based on innuendo and circumstantial ‘evidence’ are either proven to be cheats or not proven to be cheats but never, apparently, considered innocent?

What about the bit where the IAAF considers him probably cheating? Or his pi$$ poor excuse for a missed test?

This isn't a go at you Pross, but the double standards on here re. doping are amazing at times. British and it's all fair game for some.

Where is the link toback up this IAAF cheating info ? Cant see them calling out a top star as it would be a commercial disaster for them

On 23 November 2015, a select few will have become aware of him being flagged as a potential cheat on an IAAF passport list. This was only leaked, again by Fancy Bears, with his entry 26th on a list reading: 'Likely doping. Passport suspicious. Further data is required.' Basically it was the highest warning about an athlete doing wrong, with others on that list down the grading curve.

kingstongraham

sherer wrote:

Where is the link toback up this IAAF cheating info ? Cant see them calling out a top star as it would be a commercial disaster for them

Fancy Bears stuff wasn't it?

Vino'sGhost

Pross wrote:

32nd at 1500m, nowhere at 3000m, 64th at 5000m, 28th at 10,000m and 92nd at half marathon on the all-time list. He excels at winning races that are slower and more tactical. No-one considers that an improvement under Salazar could be due to good coaching helping him adapt his racing to suit his strengths.

Thats because were also asked to believe that Mo is the only one involved in that whole set up that isnt or wasnt using PED. It would be naive to believe that it isnt a strong possibility that farah has cheated even if this is unpalatable.

bobmcstuff

Dinyull wrote:

On 23 November 2015, a select few will have become aware of him being flagged as a potential cheat on an IAAF passport list. This was only leaked, again by Fancy Bears, with his entry 26th on a list reading: 'Likely doping. Passport suspicious. Further data is required.' Basically it was the highest warning about an athlete doing wrong, with others on that list down the grading curve.

That's, uhh... Quite damning!

larkim

The missing bit from the passport data stuff is that they followed it up and readings were confirmed as normal. All part of the "normal" ABP process where results which have indicators of potential doping are flagged, followed up and concluded on. So the IAAF doesn't consider that he is probably a cheat, they had one individual set of results which warranted looking at, they looked at it and moved on. Again, choose if you want to whether you accept that the IAAF's processes are sufficiently robust (I know there are plenty who insist there is some sinister organisation ensuring that Bolt, Radcliffe, Farah, etc etc never return a positive test in the same way that a certain cyclist managed to exert excessive influence over the governing body, but the only hats I have aren't made out of tinfoil so I don't subscribe to that theory).

Same with the doorbell incident. Yes of course that can be spun into suspicious circumstance. Or you can accept (as UKAD did) that it was a plausible reason for a missed test.

btw, he's 10th on the all time IAAF list for 1500m (30th fastest time in history, plenty of performances above him by the same athlete multiple times)

That's the nub of it for me - a) he was never some pack runner - he finished 6th in the world champs. And b) the times he's run over his specialist distances are good but not spectacular - he wins races through good tactics on his part, a little more flat out speed endurance, and crap tactics by his opponents, who equally may be a diminished set of opponents because the "really good ones" are chasing the cash on the road racing circuit. Beyond being a race winner, there's not much there to suggest doping to me.

Pross

bobmcstuff wrote:

Dinyull wrote:

On 23 November 2015, a select few will have become aware of him being flagged as a potential cheat on an IAAF passport list. This was only leaked, again by Fancy Bears, with his entry 26th on a list reading: 'Likely doping. Passport suspicious. Further data is required.' Basically it was the highest warning about an athlete doing wrong, with others on that list down the grading curve.

That's, uhh... Quite damning!

So why not act on it? Here's the sport's governing body producing a list of dozens of athletes they believe are cheating and yet they seemingly didn't increase efforts to prove it. Isn't a suspicious passport supposedly enough to create a ban or is their definition of suspicious different from the official definition?

Pross

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Pross wrote:

32nd at 1500m, nowhere at 3000m, 64th at 5000m, 28th at 10,000m and 92nd at half marathon on the all-time list. He excels at winning races that are slower and more tactical. No-one considers that an improvement under Salazar could be due to good coaching helping him adapt his racing to suit his strengths.

Thats because were also asked to believe that Mo is the only one involved in that whole set up that isnt or wasnt using PED. It would be naive to believe that it isnt a strong possibility that farah has cheated even if this is unpalatable.

I accept there is a possibility (as there is with any athlete) and his associations may make that stronger. However, there are people that refuse to accept the possibility that he wasn't / isn't doping and that he will either eventually be found out or get away with it i.e. he's a cheat no matter it's just whether he gets caught.

dinyull

larkim wrote:

Beyond being a race winner, there's not much there to suggest doping to me.

Linked with Salazar.
Linked with Jama Aden.
Training camp moving from Kenya to Ethiopia around the same time a anti-doping lab was established in Kenya.
Highly suspicions passport result.

larkim

Dinyull wrote:

larkim wrote:

Beyond being a race winner, there's not much there to suggest doping to me.

Linked with Salazar.
Linked with Jama Aden.
Training camp moving from Kenya to Ethiopia around the same time a anti-doping lab was established in Kenya.
Highly suspicions passport result.

Nonsense.

Linked with Salazar - well, not exactly linked, formally training under the leadership of (though no longer). That's not a "link" that's a close coaching relationship. And given that Salazar is probably the most well known and high profile distance coach in the world right now, and has USADA on his doorstep able to scrutinise everything he's done / doing then until USADA report that he is guilty of offences and that the athletes he trained were also affected, all you can say is that Salazar is known to want to use all legal means possible for his athletes to win. That to me doesn't suggest doping, it suggests a coach maxing out their capabilities.

Linked with Aden - this one is a complete nonsense. Straightforward guilt by association. Firstly (and I'm no defender of Aden), Aden has yet to be charged with anything. Secondly, if you've ever watched a set of high performance track athletes training, its nigh impossible to separate one "group" from another, and it's perfectly common for one coach to offer to do a bit of timing. Thirdly, Ewan MacKenna's line that Farah denied knowing Aden is built on an excessively suspicious interpretation of a fairly bland answer in a press conference (and Farah isn't the sharpest tool in the box when it comes to handling tabloid journos in press conferences).;

Training camp Kenya > Ethiopia - given plenty of elites train in either / or / both Kenya and Ethiopia, I don't think you can legitimately draw any conclusions here. Farah is one of the highest profile athletes int he world, he regularly instagrams / tweets when anti-doping come around (including in Ethiopia), and he trains at one of the best altitude training facilities in the world - training in Ethiopia isn't like heading out to some mud hut somewhere you know.

And as for the passport result - yep, that's a fact. And it was investigated. And resolved to the satisfaction of UKAD. So your point is?

Many many people will go to their grave swearing "when the truth comes out you'll see he was guilty" because they have preformed their views. I'm happy to admit my views are prejudged too, but then I am also comfortable that Farah hasn't ever had an anti-doping charge put to him, so if we all expire tomorrow, the world will end with Farah's status as a clean athlete preserved.

If he's cheated, I'll be the first to condemn him.

larkim

OT or not? If motors in CX bikes are "mechanical doping", what is sandpaper on a cricket ball?

(Can't believe they "fessed up" and then it was discovered that their confession wasn't entirely truthful either! My naive faith in humanity is being rocked)

bompington

I think the word we're looking for is "cheating". Exactly what you include under "doping" is a matter of terminology.