Drugs in other sports and the media.

larkim

Dolan Driver wrote:

It is incredible to think that people don't believe there is doping in the biggest, richest sport in the world.

The sport's governing bodies have been shown to be consistently corrupt, just as in cycling in the past. I doubt the players are any different to cycling's EPO generation.

DD.

I do think footballers dope. The money, if nothing else, makes it highly likely.

Not so sure I buy the tinfoil hat theories about corruption (though obviously FIFA has a long track record of financial corruption), though to be fair I'd never have expected the Diackk / Russia stuff with the IAAF so perhaps my nose isn't well enough attuned.

rick_chasey

larkim wrote:

Dolan Driver wrote:

It is incredible to think that people don't believe there is doping in the biggest, richest sport in the world.

The sport's governing bodies have been shown to be consistently corrupt, just as in cycling in the past. I doubt the players are any different to cycling's EPO generation.

DD.

I do think footballers dope. The money, if nothing else, makes it highly likely.

Not so sure I buy the tinfoil hat theories about corruption (though obviously FIFA has a long track record of financial corruption), though to be fair I'd never have expected the Diackk / Russia stuff with the IAAF so perhaps my nose isn't well enough attuned.

mmmm not so sure
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Ital ... ll_scandal


and

https://www.economist.com/news/europe/2 ... you-betcha

bobmcstuff

larkim wrote:

Dinyull wrote:

Larkim, you don't seem to understand that highly skilled players could dope.

No one is suggesting getting joe bloggs of the street, pumping him full of epo and expecting him to flourish in la liga.

Just if a highly skilled player gets bigger, stronger, faster its WILL help him become a better player. And could help him to a longer contract and a higher wage.

I do understand that, completely. Yes, a doped Messi is a better Messi. 100% undoubtedly true. What I'm saying is that is that the margin of advantage that doping brings to a whole team as a consequence of a single player doping is smaller than the margin of advantage that doping brings to a single athlete in a sport like running or cycling.

I'm frankly amazed that this appears to be anything other than self evident.

No, I can see there might be a smaller % advantage (although there might be a wider range of products a footballer might use which might increase the cumulative advantage), and I'm not sure anyone is really disagreeing? That's a completely different question than "are footballers taking PEDs" though.

In any case that's not really what annoys people on here. The issue is that many journalists only cover cycling with regards to doping and never mention it for their other/bigger sports. If you're cynical, you might think this was because football teams/players have a lot more money to make the journos suffer, and if you were being really cynical you might think it was because these journalists like their hospitality tickets to Premier League games (look at what happened to Walsh at the Tour).

k1875

Pross wrote:

I'm amazed at the amount of people who still feel the benefits of doping are limited in football when we are always hearing coaches putting improved performance down to 'working hard on our fitness'. The England women's team have made a lot of this in talking about their 'success' in the Euros. Why spend training time on fitness if it's of such limited importance? They could use the time on skills instead. As for distances covered, whilst it doesn't seem a huge amount a large part of it is doing sprint intervals in that time rather than constant movement which is a lot.

Because fitness will be lost over time if it isn't maintained, to a degree which skill won't. If I step onto a skateboard now, I can still do most of the tricks I could do when I was a teenager - not as well mind, but my muscles can still basically remember how to do them. On the other hand, if I get ill and I'm off the bike for a week or two, I can feel a drop in my fitness straight away when I get back on and I'm about as far from the elite level as could be imagined.

A national team coach is unlikely to see any noticeable improvement in a group of already highly skilled players in the limited time they have to spend with them at a tournament, or prior to a friendly or qualifier. If such things were quantifiable and you could gain 0.25% improvement in "skill" or 1% improvement in fitness, which would you go for ?

I grant you, it's anecdotal, but everybody's heard pro's or ex pro's talking about how EPO turned carthorses into racehorses. If you systematically doped a mid level championship team they would undoubtedly improve, but they would not turn into champions league contenders.

None of which is to say that I think football is clean or should get a free pass, it absolutely shouldn't, I just think it's unlikely they are focussing any nefarious efforts on endurance rather than strength / painkilling.

gsk82

larkim wrote:

Dinyull wrote:

Larkim, you don't seem to understand that highly skilled players could dope.

No one is suggesting getting joe bloggs of the street, pumping him full of epo and expecting him to flourish in la liga.

Just if a highly skilled player gets bigger, stronger, faster its WILL help him become a better player. And could help him to a longer contract and a higher wage.

I do understand that, completely. Yes, a doped Messi is a better Messi. 100% undoubtedly true. What I'm saying is that is that the margin of advantage that doping brings to a whole team as a consequence of a single player doping is smaller than the margin of advantage that doping brings to a single athlete in a sport like running or cycling.

I'm frankly amazed that this appears to be anything other than self evident.

But the rewards for doing it are far bigger and the risk of been caught far less than in pro cycling. Kolo toure was told by his coach that he was overweight then a few months later fails a test for a weight loss drug. But it was all innocent and he didn't mean it so no big deal.

rick_chasey

We done this yet?
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... esting-epo

Ethiopia?

Do note the distinction it makes between "athletes" and "cyclists" but anyway.

RonB

Another example of the darker side of world athletics. Same paper, same day ...

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/aug/03/sporting-slaves-ethiopian-trade-athletes-lily-abdullayeva-azerbaijan?CMP=twt_gu

Dorset_Boy

On the team wide doping in football, the journos didn't really follow this up did they?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/competitions/la-liga/9847272/Spanish-football-shaken-by-drug-claims-made-by-former-Real-Sociedad-president.html

RichN95.

Rick Chasey wrote:

We done this yet?
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... esting-epo

Ethiopia?

Do note the distinction it makes between "athletes" and "cyclists" but anyway.

The problem with this is expecting the Ethiopian ADA to do the testing. Leaving aside any possible government corruption the basic facts are these. The nominal Per Capita GDP of Ethiopia is $850. A full urine/blood test analysis costs over $1000. And that's not including transportation to an accredited lab (nearest in Qatar, only African one in South Africa).

So who is paying for this? Should we expect a third world country to be spending scant resources on first world problems?

johnboy183

On Netflix from today
http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/lates ... ing-345311

Richmond Racer 2

johnboy183 wrote:

On Netflix from today
http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/lates ... ing-345311

Lance Armstrong...doped?? :shock:

blazing_saddles

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

johnboy183 wrote:

On Netflix from today
http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/lates ... ing-345311

Lance Armstrong...doped?? :shock:

Those wine tasters have got their work cut out.
Some of those entries are definitely oxidised.

The_Boy

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

johnboy183 wrote:

On Netflix from today
http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/lates ... ing-345311

Lance Armstrong...doped?? :shock:

I'm reliably informed he didn't. And anyway everyone was doping. And anyway he would have won all his races regardless. And anyway you're just jealous.

m.r.m.

Regarding football or basketball (or other such team sports), being able to run more than the opponent does not guarantee the win, but not being able to sprint with the opponent and always being a step late, guarantees the loss.

When fatigue sets in you start to have concentration lapses. This is easily seen and was described in Magic Johnson's autobiography where he states the substantial difference in free throw percentage before and after practice (More shots missed when fatigued). Each of us has probably had this happen to us in other sports or even on the bike when you sometimes make bad decisions when overly fatigued. Spacial awareness, reaction speed etc. in football get worse with lapses in concentration through fatigue as well.

So, PED's absolutely help a ton and it's entirely hypocritical of the leagues to try and spin the PR battle towards them not helping.

m.r.m.

Dinyull wrote:

What if you boost Messi with growth hormone?

They did. That is one of the reasons he transferred to Barcelona as a kid. He had a growth deficiency and was treated for it in Spain (has nothing to do with PED's)

RichN95.

M.R.M. wrote:

Dinyull wrote:

What if you boost Messi with growth hormone?

They did. That is one of the reasons he transferred to Barcelona as a kid. He had a growth deficiency and was treated for it in Spain (has nothing to do with PED's)

There's not much suspicious in paying for an 11 year old kid's medical treatments. It's not as though he grew into a giant. I'm not entirely sure that I didn't have similar treatments at that age

rick_chasey

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

We done this yet?
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... esting-epo

Ethiopia?

Do note the distinction it makes between "athletes" and "cyclists" but anyway.

The problem with this is expecting the Ethiopian ADA to do the testing. Leaving aside any possible government corruption the basic facts are these. The nominal Per Capita GDP of Ethiopia is $850. A full urine/blood test analysis costs over $1000. And that's not including transportation to an accredited lab (nearest in Qatar, only African one in South Africa).

So who is paying for this? Should we expect a third world country to be spending scant resources on first world problems?

Presumably WADA from the big pot of money they're supposed to get from rich countries.

Richmond Racer 2

Rick Chasey wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

We done this yet?
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... esting-epo

Ethiopia?

Do note the distinction it makes between "athletes" and "cyclists" but anyway.

The problem with this is expecting the Ethiopian ADA to do the testing. Leaving aside any possible government corruption the basic facts are these. The nominal Per Capita GDP of Ethiopia is $850. A full urine/blood test analysis costs over $1000. And that's not including transportation to an accredited lab (nearest in Qatar, only African one in South Africa).

So who is paying for this? Should we expect a third world country to be spending scant resources on first world problems?

Presumably WADA from the big pot of money they're supposed to get from rich countries.

Hahahahaha

A highly paid footballer could cover WADA's annual,budget and still have money left over for a few more country estates, yachts & lamborghinis

bobmcstuff

Proven multiple dope cheat Gatlin wins the 100m in the London IAAF.

blazing_saddles

bobmcstuff wrote:

Proven multiple dope cheat Gatlin wins the 100m in the London IAAF.

I just popped in to check. That didn't take long.

bobmcstuff

Blazing Saddles wrote:

bobmcstuff wrote:

Proven multiple dope cheat Gatlin wins the 100m in the London IAAF.

I just popped in to check. That didn't take long.

Slow Saturday!

blazing_saddles

bobmcstuff wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

bobmcstuff wrote:

Proven multiple dope cheat Gatlin wins the 100m in the London IAAF.

I just popped in to check. That didn't take long.

Slow Saturday!

One comment on the BBC sums up athletics atm:-

"Athletics got what it deserved tonight - Russian athletes are banned indefinitely and sit at home watching an American double drugs cheat take gold."

No_Ta_Doctor

While not wanting to bang on about football, I want to bang on about football....

In reality, the Messis and Ronaldos aside, the gap in skill between a decent player and a crap one is almost infinitesimal. In the series of one-on-one battles that occur all over the pitch, that gap often translates as the ability to receive and use the ball under pressure - to be quick in thought. It's a football cliche that slower players who are nonetheless effective "have the first five yards in their head". Being faster, and able to use that speed at the end of a match, is the same thing as having an extra second to control and use the ball.

Quicker, fitter players also have the ability to make more mistakes without it costing their team, as they are able to recover to mitigate their errors.

The speed of the game has exploded over the last couple of decades. Go back and watch any match from a top league or world cup from twenty or more years ago and they look like they're just walking around. A player like Jan Mølby who graced a dominant Liverpool team in the eighties would struggle to hold down a place in a Championship team now.

Individual players have been in competition with their own team mates since they were small kids (going back to the "English players are technically rubbish" point, a large part of this revolves around them being selected for physical attributes at a far too early age, having to play competitive football on full size 11 aside pitches from as early as 11 yr olds).

In short: there is a huge pool of technically skilled players in a cut-throat market for a career in football. Technical skill is no longer anywhere near enough to succeed. The environmental factors that promote doping are in place, and they will make the difference between "I had trials at Luton" and "check out my new Aston Martin".

And that's without evening mentioning team tactics like gegenpress....

Dorset_Boy

Pretty much the worst possible result for athletics last night.
At least the crowd are aware that Gatlin should have been banned for life if the IAAF had any spine whatsoever.

redvision

No tA Doctor wrote:

While not wanting to bang on about football, I want to bang on about football....

In reality, the Messis and Ronaldos aside, the gap in skill between a decent player and a crap one is almost infinitesimal. In the series of one-on-one battles that occur all over the pitch, that gap often translates as the ability to receive and use the ball under pressure - to be quick in thought. It's a football cliche that slower players who are nonetheless effective "have the first five yards in their head". Being faster, and able to use that speed at the end of a match, is the same thing as having an extra second to control and use the ball.

Quicker, fitter players also have the ability to make more mistakes without it costing their team, as they are able to recover to mitigate their errors.

The speed of the game has exploded over the last couple of decades. Go back and watch any match from a top league or world cup from twenty or more years ago and they look like they're just walking around. A player like Jan Mølby who graced a dominant Liverpool team in the eighties would struggle to hold down a place in a Championship team now.

Individual players have been in competition with their own team mates since they were small kids (going back to the "English players are technically rubbish" point, a large part of this revolves around them being selected for physical attributes at a far too early age, having to play competitive football on full size 11 aside pitches from as early as 11 yr olds).

In short: there is a huge pool of technically skilled players in a cut-throat market for a career in football. Technical skill is no longer anywhere near enough to succeed. The environmental factors that promote doping are in place, and they will make the difference between "I had trials at Luton" and "check out my new Aston Martin".

And that's without evening mentioning team tactics like gegenpress....

Nonsense.
There is a huge gap in skill and ability between, as you put it, decent players and crap players.

The reason the speed of the game has increased over the last couple of decades is down to training properly and scientifically. There is no difference to other elite sports in this respect, including cycling.

This topic comes up every year and there are still a lot of people on this forum who insist football has a doping culture yet are unable to offer a shred of evidence.

rick_chasey

redvision wrote:

Nonsense.
There is a huge gap in skill and ability between, as you put it, decent players and crap players.

The reason the speed of the game has increased over the last couple of decades is down to training properly and scientifically. There is no difference to other elite sports in this respect, including cycling.

This topic comes up every year and there are still a lot of people on this forum who insist football has a doping culture yet are unable to offer a shred of evidence.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/ ... eal-madrid

The doctor at the centre of the Operación Puerto blood-doping trial says Real Madrid owe him money.

Eufemiano Fuentes told Spanish radio that he was "interested in collecting on a debt from Real Madrid".

redvision

Rick Chasey wrote:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2013/ ... eal-madrid

The doctor at the centre of the Operación Puerto blood-doping trial says Real Madrid owe him money.

Eufemiano Fuentes told Spanish radio that he was "interested in collecting on a debt from Real Madrid".

Oow... im sorry, the word of a discredited doctor clearly proves widespread doping in football :roll:

Show me numerous positive tests and then, and only then, can you claim there is a problem. Until you do this you are simply creating fake news.

gweeds

You are Donald Trump and I claim my £5.

redvision

Gweeds wrote:

You are Donald Trump and I claim my £5.

m.r.m.

Doping in youth football doesn't have to be the hard stuff (like testosterone derivatives or glucocorticoid inhibitors or growth hormone etc.) either. Some teams I played against in some leagues with friends playing in those teams from school had painkillers in their water bottles. In Germany this usually started at league level where some minor salaries were being paid by some teams (even as low as 200 euros a month).