Drugs in other sports and the media.

mfin

As a cycling fan I don't see any problem with cycling being scrutinised so much, I welcome it. The more it is looked at the more the sport seems to have to do to combat doping and the cleaner it will become.

It's reputation for doping in the minds of people who don't watch it is no problem, it's historically unquestionably deserved.

The cleaner it becomes and longer it stays free of controversy the better, and it's image will slowly right itself.

If anyone has an issue with how their favourite sport is perceived (as far as doping goes) in comparison to any number of other sports then I find that all a bit weird, perhaps it's born out of insecurity or something.

I don't want doping because I don't want cheating. The image of the sport is completely secondary, almost irrelevant.

tailwindhome

larkim wrote:

Whilst I do think its fair game to expect all sports to be held to the same standards ref doping, I also think the media is right to focus on those sports where doping has the biggest impact.

Its unquestionably true that a footballer who can last 90 minutes better by training with EPO / steroids etc could be "better" than he would be without the doping, doping won't (other than obliquely) have an impact on his level of skill.

Cycling and athletics, particularly the endurance end of those sports, both place relatively little emphasis on skills, so the impact of doping is higher.

Perhaps with some justification, those journalists that focus on doping investigations emphasise those sports where there is a higher premium on the physical factors vs the skills elements.

(And of course I appreciate that this is an oversimplification of the balance of skill / physical capability in the sports I've used as examples, but I think the point stands)

Or they could focus on sports where the rewards for success are massive and the risk of getting caught remote?

blazing_saddles

Timoid. wrote:

Pross wrote:

Could it be they stayed on for the photo but then wanted to stay on for the celebrations too?

And what would be wrong with that? That is part of the sport.

As it dope testing....................now.

One wonders what the reaction might be if footballers ever had to endure this sort of thing, rather than a few minutes of jollies missed.

I have been tested in all sorts of situations over the years, some more intrusive than others. Every athlete has their favourite testing story. One of mine that springs to mind was after a last-eight match at the Commonwealth Games in Delhi in 2010. We finished gone midnight after two hours of play and I was whisked off as high as a kite (not on drugs I should add) and exhausted to sit and wait in a back room. Luckily for me, England physio Phil Newton generously stayed with me for support. Time was crucial and every minute that ticked by made a dent in the recovery and preparation for the medal match the following day. I finally put my head on a pillow just after 5am.

James Willstrop (Squash)

RichN95.

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

Pross wrote:

Could it be they stayed on for the photo but then wanted to stay on for the celebrations too?

And what would be wrong with that? That is part of the sport.

As it dope testing....................now.

One wonders what the reaction might be if footballers ever had to endure this sort of thing, rather than a few minutes of jollies missed.

There's a story about Lindsey Vonn (Skier) attending a big fashion awards ceremony and getting a call in the middle of it from anti-doping asking her to come outside and supply a sample (while wearing the sort of really expensive dress they wear at these things) - which she did without fuss.

cruff

Indeed. And it's not as if Squash isn't a game of skill (albeit with a ridiculous amount of fitness also involved)

bobmcstuff

The skill thing is a bit of a red herring imo. If you can be fresher at the end of your 10-12km running and apply your skills better because you aren't hanging out your arse then it is going to give you an advantage. Possibly quite a big one.

Doping follows money and football has a lot of it.

Also look at baseball - definitely a skill sport but doping had a massive effect there...

Also also, ref posters saying they don't care about other sports images etc it's not necessarily the image it's the way certain journalists (cough Dan Roan cough) claim to be sports journalists but exclusively cover doping stories in relation to cycling yet ignore that subject entirely in football and other sports.

As an example look at Puerto, Valverde is forever branded a drugs cheat yet there was no comeback on FC Barca and Real Madrid who were both implicated (although it was never really followed through)

TheBigBean

I'm not really sympathetic to highly paid pros, but I do have sympathy for amateurs trying to hold down a regular job.

salsiccia1

bobmcstuff wrote:

Also also, ref posters saying they don't care about other sports images etc it's not necessarily the image it's the way certain journalists (cough Dan Roan cough) claim to be sports journalists but exclusively cover doping stories in relation to cycling yet ignore that subject entirely in football and other sports.

As an example look at Puerto, Valverde is forever branded a drugs cheat yet there was no comeback on FC Barca and Real Madrid who were both implicated (although it was never really followed through)

This for me. The selective outrage boils my p1ss.

awavey

Timoid. wrote:

tim000 wrote:

looks nothing like a dressing room . there is a big fence behind them with a large banner on it .

It's in the middle of the pitch.

nope this is the middle of the pitch


note the visible crowd, lack of black background, steps,grass etc.

this is the dressing room from another angle

note the same black floor, same white cubicles arrangement, and oh yes the same winners banner...

oh and in Mirrors photo they didnt crop the photo so much & you can see theyve left coat hangers hanging up

awavey

double post sorry

k1875

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/ ... ondon-2017

UK Athletics employing the "Liggett Test" in their strenuous anti doping efforts.

Pross

I see Roan is enjoying the World Athletics as it's giving him another opportunity to talk doping. I understand that doping is a major blot on cycling and athletics with athletics probably having a bigger issue in recent times but does Roan (BBC sports editor) ever done any work on actual sport rather than sporting scandal?

Richmond Racer 2

k1875 wrote:

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/aug/03/mo-farah-alberto-salazar-uk-athletics-unconcerned-london-2017

UK Athletics employing the "Liggett Test" in their strenuous anti doping efforts.

Oh Neil Black, you have always been and will forever be a fool

bobmcstuff

Pross wrote:

I see Roan is enjoying the World Athletics as it's giving him another opportunity to talk doping. I understand that doping is a major blot on cycling and athletics with athletics probably having a bigger issue in recent times but does Roan (BBC sports editor) ever done any work on actual sport rather than sporting scandal?

I'm led to believe he does some football reporting?

Which obviously is a sport where nobody would take performance enhancing drugs which is why he never mentions it.

larkim

Dorset Boy wrote:

Larkim - the Premier League suggest the average player will run between 10 and 12 kms in a match.
I think that's towards the endurance end of sports' spectrum.
Pretty sure doping would significantly enhance their performance.

10-12km in 90 minutes? That's not endurance by any stretch of the imagination. A brisk walk is about a mile every 15 minutes. 10km would be 6.2 miles, so would take just over 90 minutes.

Whilst I don't doubt that footballers are fitter than ever, the ability to run around for 90 minutes is trivial compared to the ability to use skill, insight, awareness, precision etc to be a "good" player.

I could buy an argument that steroids etc to build strength might be a more important factor for some of those team sport activities, but the bottom line is PEDs have less impact in sports with a skew towards skill, and especially so in a team sport where one player's enhanced abilities will only make a fractional difference. It's self evident that a 100m sprinter, a marathon runner, an elite track cyclist or a 3 week stage race rider would get more bang for their buck out of doping than a premier league footballer. Well, self evident to me at least.

I'm not saying for a minute it doesn't happen, and that it isn't right, and that the media should highlight PED use in sports other than cycling and athletics. I'm just pointing out that if they are looking for individual titles won and lost simply due to PED abuse, they're going to find it in sports where individual performance is the absolute key to success rather than skill and teamwork.

salsiccia1

larkim wrote:

I could buy an argument that steroids etc to build strength might be a more important factor for some of those team sport activities, but the bottom line is PEDs have less impact in sports with a skew towards skill, and especially so in a team sport where one player's enhanced abilities will only make a fractional difference. It's self evident that a 100m sprinter, a marathon runner, an elite track cyclist or a 3 week stage race rider would get more bang for their buck out of doping than a premier league footballer. Well, self evident to me at least.

Not having that, I'm sorry.

If a player is fitter than his opponent then he'll be a better player, and not just for his physical capacity. He'll be less tired and so will be able to make clearer decisions on the space to run into, who to pass to, how to defend what's happening in front of him, especially towards the end of the game. You do that to a couple of players in a team and that'll be a big difference.

Look at the Spanish national team and some club teams a few years ago - they passed teams to death and lots of their games were won in the last 10-15 minutes of the game. Players on PEDs would certainly help that.

larkim

I never said there was no impact. I'm saying there's less impact.

On the spectrum of skill to fitness, footballers primarily need skill, runners primarily need fitness. They need the other bits too, of course, but they are relatively less important.

If you boost Froome's system with EPO, the chances are he'll win more easily. If you boost Messi's system to the same extent with a PED, yes Argentina are slightly more likely to win the World Cup, but not to the same advantage that Froome would get.

That's my point.

Pross

I'm amazed at the amount of people who still feel the benefits of doping are limited in football when we are always hearing coaches putting improved performance down to 'working hard on our fitness'. The England women's team have made a lot of this in talking about their 'success' in the Euros. Why spend training time on fitness if it's of such limited importance? They could use the time on skills instead. As for distances covered, whilst it doesn't seem a huge amount a large part of it is doing sprint intervals in that time rather than constant movement which is a lot.

dinyull

What if you boost Messi with growth hormone?

dolan_driver

The Neil Black Dope Test!

They should bring him along to all the big bike races and have him do his dope testing on the riders. It would save a hell of a lot of money for the UCI in lab fees and while he is there maybe he could even use his X-Ray vision to test the bikes for any hidden motors.

DD.

shinyhelmut

larkim wrote:

10-12km in 90 minutes? That's not endurance by any stretch of the imagination. A brisk walk is about a mile every 15 minutes. 10km would be 6.2 miles, so would take just over 90 minutes.

I can run about 23K in 90 minutes. By your logic I'm twice as fit as a premiership footballer. Either that or your logic is seriously flawed.

larkim

Pross wrote:

I'm amazed at the amount of people who still feel the benefits of doping are limited in football when we are always hearing coaches putting improved performance down to 'working hard on our fitness'. The England women's team have made a lot of this in talking about their 'success' in the Euros. Why spend training time on fitness if it's of such limited importance? They could use the time on skills instead. As for distances covered, whilst it doesn't seem a huge amount a large part of it is doing sprint intervals in that time rather than constant movement which is a lot.

Hasn't it been a persistent criticism of the men's England team that the reason they don't do well in championships is precisely that lack of skill.

Look, I'm not decrying the fact that fitness is important in football and all team sports. Clearly the fitter you are, the better you are overall. All I'm suggesting is that when a football team is 11 individuals with a mix of skills, fitness, intellect etc, all of whom spend significant portions of the competitive game not in contact with the action, a single player doping will have less of an impact on the final outcome than doping a single athlete in an individual sport where absolute skill is relatively less important.

Now, if there was a professional football team that doped systematically every member of the team, I'm certain that would interest the Dan Roan's of this world just as much as allegations about individual athletes or cyclists.

dolan_driver

Is there any truth at all in the theory that numerous sports in Spain, including cycling and football, improved enormously post-Barcelona Olympics because Spain, allegedly, had invested in doping practices for the 1992 games? Sounds like conspiracy-theory stuff, I know, but the Spanish football team's performance went stratospheric post-1992 and they were even mentioned in passing in the Op Puerto files. None of the doping footballers names were ever released, of course, just the cyclists. "We must protect football at all costs" seems to be the global mantra.

DD.

larkim

ShinyHelmut wrote:

larkim wrote:

10-12km in 90 minutes? That's not endurance by any stretch of the imagination. A brisk walk is about a mile every 15 minutes. 10km would be 6.2 miles, so would take just over 90 minutes.

I can run about 23K in 90 minutes. By your logic I'm twice as fit as a premiership footballer. Either that or your logic is seriously flawed.

At running, you are (I'm closer to 22k in that time, but that's beside the point). Put you at the start of a half marathon tomorrow against most premier league footballers and you'd beat them.

Football isn't actually about running 23k in 90 minutes. Football running is not an endurance activity in the same way that middle / long distance running is. The running bit of it is lots of short sprints followed by recovery (put you or I on a football pitch mimicking a single player's movements constantly I'd expect you, and certainly myself, to be able to cover the distance fine, but be left for dead in the speed stakes).

But the running bit isn't the only bit, there's the massive skill component and spatial awareness aspect which doping doesn't help (much).

dinyull

Larkim, you don't seem to understand that highly skilled players could dope.

No one is suggesting getting joe bloggs of the street, pumping him full of epo and expecting him to flourish in la liga.

Just if a highly skilled player gets bigger, stronger, faster its WILL help him become a better player. And could help him to a longer contract and a higher wage.

shinyhelmut

larkim wrote:

Now, if there was a professional football team that doped systematically every member of the team, I'm certain that would interest the Dan Roan's of this world just as much as allegations about individual athletes or cyclists.

They didn't seem very interested in the non-cycling and T&F athletes involved in Puerto did they?

bobmcstuff

larkim wrote:

Now, if there was a professional football team that doped systematically every member of the team, I'm certain that would interest the Dan Roan's of this world just as much as allegations about individual athletes or cyclists.

It seems likely this has already happened, as per Dolan Driver's post:

Dolan Driver wrote:

Is there any truth at all in the theory that numerous sports in Spain, including cycling and football, improved enormously post-Barcelona Olympics because Spain, allegedly, had invested in doping practices for the 1992 games? Sounds like conspiracy-theory stuff, I know, but the Spanish football team's performance went stratospheric post-1992 and they were even mentioned in passing in the Op Puerto files. None of the doping footballers names were ever released, of course, just the cyclists. "We must protect football at all costs" seems to be the global mantra.

DD.

Various attendees of Fuentes' clinic report seeing footballers (and plenty of other sportspeople) etc., Fuentes himself stated that he worked with tennis players and footballers as well as cyclists.

There is as least as much evidence there as there is for some of the doping in athletics/cycling stories that get run.

End of the day doping follows money and football is the biggest money sport in most of the world, and it seems incredible to me that there would not be doping in football (NFL and MLB are two other big money sports which spring to mind where they have had doping scandals far in excess of what football has seen)

NONE of this excuses cyclists or track athletes etc etc from anything, of course.

dolan_driver

No, but if you are so bolloxed from all those short sprints that add up to 10-12km in 90 minutes, you will lack the ability to think clearly and that means you can forget about being able to perform skill-wise at anything near your optimum level in the second half of a game. Supreme fitness levels only provide the basis for any player to deploy their technical skills in the closing stages of a match. It is incredible to think that people don't believe there is doping in the biggest, richest sport in the world.

The sport's governing bodies have been shown to be consistently corrupt, just as in cycling in the past. I doubt the players are any different to cycling's EPO generation.

DD.

larkim

Dinyull wrote:

Larkim, you don't seem to understand that highly skilled players could dope.

No one is suggesting getting joe bloggs of the street, pumping him full of epo and expecting him to flourish in la liga.

Just if a highly skilled player gets bigger, stronger, faster its WILL help him become a better player. And could help him to a longer contract and a higher wage.

I do understand that, completely. Yes, a doped Messi is a better Messi. 100% undoubtedly true. What I'm saying is that is that the margin of advantage that doping brings to a whole team as a consequence of a single player doping is smaller than the margin of advantage that doping brings to a single athlete in a sport like running or cycling.

I'm frankly amazed that this appears to be anything other than self evident.

Tashman

I think someone's been putting something on Keaton Jennings Cornflakes every morning that means his reactions have been impaired!