science vs religion

cat_with_no_tail

You seem to be confusing what people do in the name of what they consider to be religion, vs actions which are actually approved by the church.

I could go out tomorrow and kill 100 people because they were ginger, and if I really wanted, I could probably find a passage somewhere in the bible to support that. However do you think any religion would stand behind me and say "yes, we agree, he truly was doing gods work".

Same thing applies to these odd little regimes (which strangely are usually run by some mad, power hungry dictator). Or someone who blows up an abortion clinic, or a bus full of kids or any of the other nutters who do stuff "in the name of god". None of their actions are condoned by their particular religion, and in fact, are quite openly condemned. Usually to be accompanied by a statement about how [insert religion here] teaches peace, forgivness, and goodwill to all.

These people don't do things because of religion, they do them because of hate, or good old fashion power and greed. Unfortunately, religion (because of it's deliberate ambiguity) is an excellent justification for it rather than saying "I really slaughtered that village because they'd got wise to the fact I'm basically a cnut and called me out on it".

JamesB5446

The general vibe of religion is "this is the truth, you WILL accept it without question". We're not a very religious country hence people question it more.

What would people find to fill it's place? I have no religion, I don't feel like I need to replace it with anything.

Questioning peoples beliefs makes them think. Thinking is good.

You did. Your comment was a silly joke, but it highlights the fact that all the places in the world where being gay is punishable by death are very religious.

JamesB5446

Cat With No Tail wrote:

You seem to be confusing what people do in the name of what they consider to be religion, vs actions which are actually approved by the church.

No, I'm not.

I don't really think you can call Suadi and the UAE odd little regimes.

thekickingmule

You're wrong and seem to be ignoring the thing I keep saying: Go to a church and see for yourself.

I regularly go to a church (I play the organ and sing) and can tell you now that the local priest is always questioning faith. He talks of himself being tested, and points out that we are all tested. He doesn't damn people that don't believe, he doesn't dismiss people that lack faith, he understands that we're entitled to believe, or not believe whatever we want. He has NEVER said that we will accept it without question. He for one has openly dismissed Genesis (the bible book, not the band, who should be dismissed anyway) saying that it was written before there was a better explanation.

I've come to the decision that you're a troll, as you're not listening to the others, you're just a typical 'Religion is stupid, I don't want to hear anyone say otherwise', which is no different from the deeply religious people saying similar things.

cat_with_no_tail

I get the feeling we're just going round in circles now.

JamesB5446 wrote:

The general vibe of religion is "this is the truth, you WILL accept it without question". We're not a very religious country hence people question it more.

That's not saying what you think is the message of religion, just what people should DO with that message. What truth is religion trying to get people to accept without questioning? (I agree with you on that btw, I just think we disagree on that the message is)

JamesB5446 wrote:

What would people find to fill it's place? I have no religion, I don't feel like I need to replace it with anything.

You've missed my point.
I was saying that had religion never been invented, we'd have something else instead. I'm not saying everyone would follow that particular thing, but there would have to be something. It's a human trait. As a species, we need something to fill the blanks, and something to blame for our indiscretions (not everyone).

JamesB5446 wrote:

Questioning peoples beliefs makes them think. Thinking is good.

I agree. ou're not questioning anything though. You're standing there saying "What you believe is complete shlt and you're a retard for believing it. That wont make anyone think, other than to think you're a prat.

JamesB5446 wrote:

You did. Your comment was a silly joke, but it highlights the fact that all the places in the world where being gay is punishable by death are very religious.

Again, these are instances where religion is being used as an excuse to persecute a group of individuals.

Name one instance in recent times where the church (any church) has actively supported any form of violence against another group. You can use your mad google skillz if you like.

JamesB5446

I've been to a church.

I don't understand that vague type of christianity you seem to follow. At least the nutters in the middle east orr America can blame it on ignorance. So, you're telling me that the priest knows that the very first bit of the bible, the bit that the rest of it all follows on from, is a load of cobblers? Why, in that case, does he believe in god? I really don't get that.

cooldad

thekickingmule wrote:

I regularly go to a church (I play my organ ) and the local priest. He talks of himself being damned. Genesis (the band) say you're a troll
Religion is stupid, I don't want to hear anyone say otherwise.

I'm bored now.

thekickingmule

JamesB5446 wrote:

I've been to a church.

I don't understand that vague type of christianity you seem to follow. At least the nutters in the middle east orr America can blame it on ignorance. So, you're telling me that the priest knows that the very first bit of the bible, the bit that the rest of it all follows on from, is a load of cobblers? Why, in that case, does he believe in god? I really don't get that.

You seriously are full of brown liquid.

I'm bored of you now.

JamesB5446

Cat With No Tail wrote:

I get the feeling we're just going round in circles now.

JamesB5446 wrote:

The general vibe of religion is "this is the truth, you WILL accept it without question". We're not a very religious country hence people question it more.

That's not saying what you think is the message of religion, just what people should DO with that message. What truth is religion trying to get people to accept without questioning? (I agree with you on that btw, I just think we disagree on that the message is)

No, that's what I'm saying the message is. The message is not to question those in power. It's very simple.
See the chap above, the modern british 'christian' does sort of question these things a bit, hence faith in the uk is in decline. Church in the uk is more of a social club, not a strict religious thing.

Cat With No Tail wrote:

You've missed my point.
I was saying that had religion never been invented, we'd have something else instead. I'm not saying everyone would follow that particular thing, but there would have to be something. It's a human trait. As a species, we need something to fill the blanks, and something to blame for our indiscretions (not everyone).

Ah, got ya. So, now that we've evolved and learned enough we don't need religion or whatever to fall back on. I take it you agree with this?

Cat With No Tail wrote:

I agree. ou're not questioning anything though. You're standing there saying "What you believe is complete shlt and you're a retard for believing it. That wont make anyone think, other than to think you're a prat.

No, I'm saying what they believe is complete shit but I'm happy to be proven wrong if they back it up.

Cat With No Tail wrote:

Name one instance in recent times where the church (any church) has actively supported any form of violence against another group. You can use your mad google skillz if you like.

Westboro Baptist Church. You said any. They, of modern christian churches seem to stick to the original teachings of the bible quite stricktly.
I can give some more though, depending on how recently you mean by recent. Rwanda '94 is good example, might be too old for you though.

cat_with_no_tail

cooldad wrote:

thekickingmule wrote:

I regularly go to a church (I play my organ ) and the local priest. He talks of himself being damned. Genesis (the band) say you're a troll
Religion is stupid, I don't want to hear anyone say otherwise.

I'm bored now.

cat_with_no_tail

dammit, that pic is not showing.

JamesB5446

thekickingmule wrote:

You seriously are full of brown liquid.

I'm bored of you now.

Good way to prove the religious people don't mind being questioned, you silly sausage.

YeehaaMcgee

JamesB5446 wrote:

Questioning peoples beliefs makes them think. Thinking is good.

Fine. I agree that questioning things is good. But what you're doing is belittling people.

JamesB5446 wrote:

I've been to a church.

I don't understand that vague type of christianity you seem to follow. At least the nutters in the middle east orr America can blame it on ignorance. So, you're telling me that the priest knows that the very first bit of the bible, the bit that the rest of it all follows on from, is a load of cobblers? Why, in that case, does he believe in god? I really don't get that.

I'm not a religious man at all, despite my upringing. However, I often consult a local padre for advice, not because of his spiritual leanings, but because he has a well versed understanding of life, people, and all their foibles. He's dealt with homeless people begging for pennies, and he's also had dealings with royalty, his life experience is astounding.
Now, him being a religious fella, he often explains things through lessons taught in religion, and will almost without failure, point out that the words written in any religious book are not to be taken literally, they're to be taken as a guide.
Not only that, but a friend of our family, who studied to become a minister, would also explain things as such. So the whole "creation in seven days" thing, is not a literal explanation, it's a story about creation. True, people may have believed it a long time ago, but that doesn't mean that they take it word for word these days.

So it seems even people who could be called "spiritual leaders" have common sense, and an understanding of what is, and is not to be taken at face value.

JamesB5446

I'll ask you the same question that the other chap is ducking. If they know it's not literal, and can see the constant contradictions, why do they believe in any of it?
Not trying to belittle anyone, I just want to know, and want them to think about it.

Daz555

YeehaaMcgee wrote:

True, people may have believed it a long time ago, but that doesn't mean that they take it word for word these days.

40% of Americans believe the world is less than 10,000 years old.

YeehaaMcgee

JamesB5446 wrote:

Cat With No Tail wrote:

Name one instance in recent times where the church (any church) has actively supported any form of violence against another group. You can use your mad google skillz if you like.

Westboro Baptist Church. You said any. They, of modern christian churches seem to stick to the original teachings of the bible quite stricktly.

Thing is though, Westboro Baptist Church claim to be christian, but any christian organisation would refuse anything to do with them.
They, are a bunch of crazies, and thus are not useful to support any view. It's like claiming that (insert random non religious mass murderer here) was not religious, so all non religious people are mass murderers.

For someone so strongly opposed to letting other people have their own non-logical religious beliefs, you sure do fail at logic.

Daz555

What I can't fathom is how mere humans being can feel arrogant enough to interpret the inspired word of their all-powerful god and cherry pick so readily.

If it said people should be put to death for working on a sunday, then surely that's enough for them to be cracking on with murder. If you can't follow the simple instructions laid down by your god then do you REALLY accept it?

cat_with_no_tail

JamesB5446 wrote:

Cat With No Tail wrote:

Name one instance in recent times where the church (any church) has actively supported any form of violence against another group. You can use your mad google skillz if you like.

Westboro Baptist Church. You said any. They, of modern christian churches seem to stick to the original teachings of the bible quite stricktly.
I can give some more though, depending on how recently you mean by recent. Rwanda '94 is good example, might be too old for you though.

Westbro is a group of mentalists who have done much the same thing you did earlier. They've gone through the bible (or a search engine), and have picked out all the worst bits, the obscure bits that most people would rather forget, and used that as a (rather shaky) basis to promote their hate-filled nonsense. They call theirselves a church, but as far as I'm aware, are not actually affiliated with any of the governing bodies (I actually have no idea what to call a religions, "head-office", the baptists version of the Vatican).

As for Rwanda, I was under the impression that whole thing was orchestrated by the Governemnt, with religion being used as an excuse to try and justify the murder of almost a million people (as it often is). I was also under the impression that the genocide there was condemned by the RC church. Yes, there were several ministers who were later implicated. And the church did not stand by them. That sounds to me very much like a corrupt official, rather than anything sanctioned by the church.

Both of those examples are a far cry from organized religion giving their backing.

cat_with_no_tail

JamesB5446 wrote:

I'll ask you the same question that the other chap is ducking. If they know it's not literal, and can see the constant contradictions, why do they believe in any of it?
Not trying to belittle anyone, I just want to know, and want them to think about it.

Nobody is ducking anything.

You've viewing religion as nothing more than silly superstition, and implying that people who follow religion believe all the bible and take it all on literal value. That's simply not the case though. Sure, for some people it is, but most people take it as a bunch of stories that promote a particular outlook on life. Bread and fishes encourages sharing, david and goliath promotes self belief in order to overcome massive obsticles in life and so on. Most christians I think have the common sense to not actually believe Dynamo was walking about doing street magic for people 2000 years ago.

cat_with_no_tail

Daz555 wrote:

YeehaaMcgee wrote:

True, people may have believed it a long time ago, but that doesn't mean that they take it word for word these days.

40% of Americans believe the world is less than 10,000 years old.

Says more about Americans than it does about religion though.

JamesB5446

YeehaaMcgee wrote:

Thing is though, Westboro Baptist Church claim to be christian, but any christian organisation would refuse anything to do with them.
They, are a bunch of crazies, and thus are not useful to support any view. It's like claiming that (insert random non religious mass murderer here) was not religious, so all non religious people are mass murderers.

For someone so strongly opposed to letting other people have their own non-logical religious beliefs, you sure do fail at logic.

But if they believe in the literal word of the bible, surely they are more christian than those who don't?

What logic have I failed at?

Daz555 wrote:

What I can't fathom is how mere humans being can feel arrogant enough to interpret the inspired word of their all-powerful god and cherry pick so readily.

If it said people should be put to death for working on a sunday, then surely that's enough for them to be cracking on with murder. If you can't follow the simple instructions laid down by your god then do you REALLY accept it?

Exactly.

Cat With No Tail wrote:

Both of those examples are a far cry from organized religion giving their backing.

So when you said "any church" what did you really mean?

JamesB5446

Cat With No Tail wrote:

Nobody is ducking anything.

You've viewing religion as nothing more than silly superstition, and implying that people who follow religion believe all the bible and take it all on literal value. That's simply not the case though. Sure, for some people it is, but most people take it as a bunch of stories that promote a particular outlook on life. Bread and fishes encourages sharing, david and goliath promotes self belief in order to overcome massive obsticles in life and so on. Most christians I think have the common sense to not actually believe Dynamo was walking about doing street magic for people 2000 years ago.

Yes, they are ducking the question.

I've got another one. Why can't you read those stories, or ones from the talmud or the quorn or greek or norse mythology and take the good bits from them without actually believing in god or calling yourself religious?

I'm not saying that thinking that sharing your food is stupid. I'm saying that believing in something without proof is stupid.

cat_with_no_tail

JamesB5446 wrote:

Cat With No Tail wrote:

Both of those examples are a far cry from organized religion giving their backing.

So when you said "any church" what did you really mean?

You know full well what I meant, you are just trolling.

Providing those examples as a basis for your argument is weak when neither one is actually supported by a proper religion. Actually, I have to accept some of the blame, because I did state "church" rather than "religion". I forgot you're the kind of person who needs it spelling out.

JamesB5446 wrote:

I've got another one. Why can't you read those stories, or ones from the talmud or the quorn or greek or norse mythology and take the good bits from them without actually believing in god or calling yourself religious?

Erm.... what?

Nobody said you can't do that did they?

I've already said that imo, Jeebus was just an early philanthropist and due to the fact that at the time, most things could only be communicated via word of mouth, the things he did were embelished over the years. I'm far from religious.

The whole god and heaven thing is a seperate issue. I can appreciate that some people need to think there is something else after we die, and whilst I don't need to agree with them, I don't feel the need to look down on them, or try to convince them they're wrong, because again, it's not doing anyone any harm.

JamesB5446

Cat With No Tail wrote:

You know full well what I meant, you are just trolling.

Providing those examples as a basis for your argument is weak when neither one is actually supported by a proper religion. Actually, I have to accept some of the blame, because I did state "church" rather than "religion". I forgot you're the kind of person who needs it spelling out.

I didn't and I'm not. If you mean something you should be more clear about it and not move the goal posts.
If you meant "when in recent history have the press departments of the vatican or CofE called for attacking people?" then you know I would say they haven't.

I love your use of the term 'proper religion'. What does that even mean?

Cat With No Tail wrote:

The whole god and heaven thing is a seperate issue. I can appreciate that some people need to think there is something else after we die, and whilst I don't need to agree with them, I don't feel the need to look down on them, or try to convince them they're wrong, because again, it's not doing anyone any harm.

And I just want to know why they feel that way.

cat_with_no_tail

JamesB5446 wrote:

Cat With No Tail wrote:

The whole god and heaven thing is a seperate issue. I can appreciate that some people need to think there is something else after we die, and whilst I don't need to agree with them, I don't feel the need to look down on them, or try to convince them they're wrong, because again, it's not doing anyone any harm.

And I just want to know why they feel that way.

With respect, that's not how it comes across from your posts. If that's what you want to know, have you ever asked anyone, I mean properly? and not some sandwichboard nutter in the street, or Johovas' witness at your door or something. I mean, if you genuinely want to know the answer to that question, have you ever got up, and gone into a church or something to ask the rev, priest, minister or whatever? "Please can you tell me why people feel the need to believe in a higher power?" It's a honest, genuine question, and I'm sure you'd get an honest response from most of them. As I'm firmly in the non-believer camp though, I'm afraid I can't help you out on that one.

I'd personally hazard a guess it's because as I said above "some people need to think there is something else after we die". Why they need to believe that I don't know and I don't much care. Why do people need to find a partner and settle down, why do people feel the need to have a job, a family. why do people feel the need to wear clothes. Not everyone does.

People do a lot of things. Some of it is as a result of society imposing certain ways of thinking on us, some of it is just a trait of being human, some of it is learned behaviour and so on. There are a million reasons we do what we do. Sometimes it's just as simple as "because I feel like it".

What I'd like to know is why it bothers you so much that you feel the need to try and change peoples opinions on it?

JamesB5446

Yes, I have. Never got a good answer.

I'll ask it now, again. Any believers on here, why do you believe in what you believe despite the total lack of evidence.

The need to have a job and family and clothes are all rational so not really comparable.

I've explained why it bothers me. I think it's good for people to think about things rather than blindly believing them and I think the world would be a much better place without religion.

thekickingmule

JamesB5446 wrote:

I'm saying that believing in something without proof is stupid.

Calling someone stupid for a belief is belittling, that's quite simple.

I know a lot of people believe in heaven as something to live for. On the basis that when you die, it's game over, they will question the point of living. "To pass on ones genes" is what most scientists will say, but to what end? There is no proof as to what happens when you die, it's impossible to say, so people like to think that there's something to look forward to after life.
If it keeps them happy, why so angry that they believe it?

spongtastic

JamesB5446 wrote:

Yes, I have. Never got a good answer.

I'll ask it now, again. Any believers on here, why do you believe in what you believe despite the total lack of evidence.

.

What would you consider a good answer? The ones that back up you narrow mind?

JamesB5446

thekickingmule wrote:

Calling someone stupid for a belief is belittling, that's quite simple.

And that is why I've not called you stupid.
I might think that some of the things you believe are stupid, but that doesn't mean I think that you are stupid.

thekickingmule wrote:

I know a lot of people believe in heaven as something to live for. On the basis that when you die, it's game over, they will question the point of living. "To pass on ones genes" is what most scientists will say, but to what end? There is no proof as to what happens when you die, it's impossible to say, so people like to think that there's something to look forward to after life.
If it keeps them happy, why so angry that they believe it?

Why does there need to be an end? Why can't you just live for the sake of living? Why can't you think "right, this is it, lets try to be as happy as possible and make others as happy as possible before I die" rather than "shit, I best do what the big man says or I'm fucked for eternity"?
There is plenty of proof as to what happens when you die. You die.

You've still not said why you believe in god though. Do you believe?

spongtastic wrote:

JamesB5446 wrote:

Yes, I have. Never got a good answer.

I'll ask it now, again. Any believers on here, why do you believe in what you believe despite the total lack of evidence.

.

What would you consider a good answer? The ones that back up you narrow mind?

One that is rational. Why do you think my mind is narrow?
Don't be so offended by questions.

spongtastic

JamesB5446 wrote:

spongtastic wrote:

JamesB5446 wrote:

Yes, I have. Never got a good answer.

I'll ask it now, again. Any believers on here, why do you believe in what you believe despite the total lack of evidence.

.

What would you consider a good answer? The ones that back up you narrow mind?

One that is rational. Why do you think my mind is narrow?
Don't be so offended by questions.

Don't be so offended by answers you don't want to hear or cannot comprehend.