science vs religion

welshkev

cooldad wrote:

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

I could say evolution is wrong as it gave us the welsh.

Fair point,

Cnuts

That's my intelligent witty reply by the way

Daz555

paul.skibum wrote:

America is fairly religious its true but stem cell research was banned by Bush as a salve to his religious supporters that got him into power - sure that's f*cked up but I can hardly say that Civilisation has been held back years. The rest of the world wasnt banned.

Why we still haven't got a decent flying car and don't live on the moon:





There was also a time when Islam had a "golden age" when the Islamic countries were the centre of science and philosophy and they lived by mottos like "the scholar is more holy than the martyr" (if only that were true today). The Mongol invasion put an end to all that but the "new" Islam which emerged in more recent centuries prevented an enlightenment of the kind seen in the culturally christian countries.

YeehaaMcgee

JamesB5446 wrote:

Chunkers1980 wrote:

Go on then Jameswhateva. Let us know what you disagree with about CWNT's very general views.

[eventually][Utter gibberish, random quotes from a bible

And... have you any context for that, or anything to explain your stance?
He asked you how you disagreed with CWNT's very general views, not for a quotation of random bits of the bible. What is YOUR understanding of it, why do YOU disagree with CWNT?

cooldad

Just because he's a cwnt.

cat_with_no_tail

Well done for finding google. I applaud you.

However, just quoting random sentences from various parts of religious scripture and saying "look, the bible is clearly telling me to kill anyone who does not believe" is a little shortsighted at best. In fact, it's the kind of thing these religious nutcases do to justify mass murder.

All religious text, be it the Bible, the Quran, the Torah or the book of the flying spaghetti monster have all been edited over time, certain verses have been interprited in ways to suit the agenda of a particular person in a particular period in time. and when they couldn't find a verse that they could interprit to say what they want, they just made one up.

This is the exact point I made about religion pages ago. And my main problem with organized religion. It is purpose built to be vague, so anyone looking for answers can find them because the mind can fill in the blanks and they get the asnwer they want. The CAN be used to control a population, and can be used to justify atrocities. However, people that use it for such purposes are an extreme minority.

I really don't see why you have such a massive problem with people who have (non-extremist) religious beliefs. Were you touched by a priest as a boy or something?

TBH, the more you post, the more you come over as one of those obnoxious atheists who would happily launch into another self agrandizing diatribe at anyone who so much as hinted at a connection to religion, irrespective of wether or not that person was ever going to pose any sort of threat to you. Or to put it another way, (as we're in the crudcatcher) a proper bellend.

cat_with_no_tail

cooldad wrote:

Just because he's a cwnt.

O'hai!

JamesB5446

Right, you said that religion is generally nice and teaches being kind to each other. I posted evidence that proves you were talking out your arse and now you're having a period about it. Not my fault you were wrong.

Gazlar wrote:

All written by humans

Everything is written by humans, I'm not sure what your point is...

Gazlar wrote:

Humans are a) possessive and b) pugilistic religion is just used idly as a means to justify greed. If religion didn't exist then something else would be used, maybe science. You also have to take into account religion was the science of its time lets not be so naive as to think that what we understand today won't subsequently be disproved or argued and laughed at by people in the future or be the cause of disagreement and war

No, we've covered this already. Religion was not the science of its time. Science was the science of it's time. It's just that people hadn't done enough science yet to realise how daft religion sounded.

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

Whu did you spell 'dishonor' in the american way - I mean if you're going to argue agianst the koran, the bible, the talmud it's probably best that you read them rather than just google to satisfy a prejudice - by that token I could say evolution is wrong as it gave us the welsh.

Because cut and paste is easier than retyping pages of the bible.
By that token, no you couldn't, that argument makes no sense. Think before you type.

YeehaaMcgee

You haven't posted evidence, you've posted disjointed biblical quotes. I, and I suspect, most others here, have absolutely no understanding of the context of those quotes.
Could they be, for example, from a passage that is meant to illustrate what not to do? See, I'm fairly sure there have to be some wicked deeds described in the bible, like the killing of Isaac, for example. That doesn't mean that the intention was for all readers to kill their sons, the point was to teach a lesson about morality.

YeehaaMcgee

cooldad wrote:

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

I could say evolution is wrong as it gave us the welsh.

Fair point, and even more scary - roadies.

Oi, bit more decorum if you please, there's Welsh folk right here on the forum.







We take the view that the Welsh are the exception to Darwin's theory

JamesB5446

No, they were not examples of what not to do.

nicklouse

YeehaaMcgee wrote:

cooldad wrote:

Cleat Eastwood wrote:

I could say evolution is wrong as it gave us the welsh.

Fair point, and even more scary - roadies.

Oi, bit more decorum if you please, there's Welsh folk right here on the forum.

and he has a road bike.

YeehaaMcgee

I'm scary? Cool.
Roar, snarl, growl etc.

Meanwhile, James, you've still not actually offered any counter argument of any worth to CWNT.
What you have done, however, is provide a perfect example of the aggressive anti-religion zealotry that I attributed to atheists earlier in this thread.
So well done, I guess. Round of applause to you.

cat_with_no_tail

JamesB5446 wrote:

Right, you said that religion is generally nice and teaches being kind to each other. I posted evidence that proves you were talking out your ars* and now you're having a period about it.

I said that the general message of religion is that we should all just be cool to each other.

You didn't post any evidence to the disprove that. What you posted was a handful of random sentences you'd found through google with no idea as to what they really relate to.

And again, as I've already pointed out. The main religious texts have been changed, and amended through history to provide people with something they can use to support whatever half-assed argument they're making at the time (not unlike what you're doing now actually).

I'm fairly certain that if you were to approach any of the mainstream religions and ask them what they made of those quotes, they would provide you with the FULL passage, and point out that you're either taking it completely out of context, or that it was from a scripture written a couple of thousand years ago when people generally had a very different outlook, and explain that whilst those passages are still in there they are now used more as a cautionary tale, rather than an instruction manual. These people are the majority, who you always see condemming the actions of the few who claim atrocities in the name of religion.

JamesB5446

Ok, put those passages in context for me then. Explain what I've missed. Show me how they really mean we should all just be cool with each other.

Thanks.

YeehaaMcgee

JamesB5446 wrote:

Ok, put those passages in context for me then. Explain what I've missed. Show me how they really mean we should all just be cool with each other.

Thanks.

so you copy and paste some random text, and now you're asking us to explain it to you.
Yep, that's a pretty strong argument.

thekickingmule

JamesB5446 wrote:

Right, you said that religion is generally nice and teaches being kind to each other. I posted evidence that proves you were talking out your ars* and now you're having a period about it. Not my fault you were wrong.

But you didn't post evidence that evil was being taught in church.

I can guess from what you are saying, that you are about 700 years old, and last went into a church in the dark ages? For at least 150 years, they have been finding the passages in the bible that contradict the 'evil' parts and teaching those. To love one another, to forgive each other, to have peace with each other.

Seriously, you want evidence? Go to a church and tell me if they teach you to murder the Islamic family down the road. If you do, the number to call is 999.

JamesB5446

No you div. It's not random text, it's passages from the holy book of one of the worlds major religions. I posted it to show that these books contain some horrid shit and not a message of 'be cool to each other'.

If you think I've got that wrong, show me how. I'm always happy to learn.

cat_with_no_tail

Why do you keep going back to a handful of passages you found on google? Is that really the best argument you have? You've done no real research into those passages, so you've got a lazy argument based on work someone else has done, with a less than complete story. Now you're wanting me to go off and disprove your argument because you're too lazy to substantiate any of it yourself.

You're criticising religious people for blindly following what they've heard/read without givign it any thought, yet you're doing the exact same thing here. As I've already said, I'm sure if you ran those passages past any religious scholar, they'd be able to provide you with the background and the full context. I'm pretty sure there will be arguments against all of those passages from religious people on the internet somewhere. But I'm certainly not interested in going searching for them.

And for the 3rd time, I never said that THOSE passages support the view we should all be cool with one another. I'd say it's fairly obvious they don't. What I have said (and this really is the last time I'll repeat this now because I'm beginning to realize you're either trolling, or a bit dim) is that you can't just take 6 passages from the tens of thousands available and try and present that as an argument for how religion is preaching for us all to kill. As I also pointed out, these texts have been altered over the last couple of thousand years to support particular ways of thinking.

If you like, I could also go onto google now and provide you with a list of passages that teach tolerance and forgiving. Which is the message ALL main religions try and push. I'd not dream of saying "look, these passages clearly show that religion is, was, and can only ever be a tool for good" because that's just as boIIocks as your argument.

JamesB5446

It's good that you can admit how flawed and self contradictory the bible is.

Have you got any evidence that the general vibe of religion is 'just be cool to each other'? As I've said, I'm more than happy to learn.

thekickingmule

JamesB5446 wrote:

It's good that you can admit how flawed and self contradictory the bible is.

Have you got any evidence that the general vibe of religion is 'just be cool to each other'? As I've said, I'm more than happy to learn.

It's a shame you seem to think religion is about hate and death to others.

The evidence is in your nearest church. Honestly.

JamesB5446

I don't think it's all about that at all. I just think it's outdated and useless.

YeehaaMcgee

JamesB5446 wrote:

It's good that you can admit how flawed and self contradictory the bible is.

Have you got any evidence that the general vibe of religion is 'just be cool to each other'? As I've said, I'm more than happy to learn.

As a child that grew up in Wales, I was made to go to Sunday school in chapel. I also had to take part in various religious crap all through primary school, including Christmas services and concerts, Easter, even thanksgiving (oddly).
Not once was I ever told in that context that I should smite mine enemy. I was told to respect others and to be charitable. In fact, being a good person was the central theme, since there was an all seeing dude called Dog the bounty hunter (something like that, my memory's faded), would kick our arrises for all eternity if we weren't.


In case anybody's wondering, I discovered the "smite thine enemy and be a cnut" path of my own accord.

JamesB5446

So you were taught that if you don't follow the arbitrary rules you would be tortured for eternity? That's a bit mean, don't you think?

cat_with_no_tail

JamesB5446 wrote:

It's good that you can admit how flawed and self contradictory the bible is.

Oh dear god (no pun intended).

Are you serious? really?

All I've said through this entire thread is how flawed the bible is. In fact, not just the bible, but religion as a whole. That's my opinion of it and I've been very clear on that from the start.

JamesB5446 wrote:

Have you got any evidence that the general vibe of religion is 'just be cool to each other'? As I've said, I'm more than happy to learn.

Would you argue that the general vibe of religion is actually whatever the end user wants it to be?

And for the most part, what the end user wants is a way to learn to be cool with other people? "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" (sorry, it's actually the only bit of religious text I know without consulting google. Oh, that and "love thy neighbour". Oh, and the bit from pulp fiction, which actually appears to promote violence but sounds pretty cool when Samuel L Jackson says it)

The evidence of that is all around you. You just seem determined to focus only on the tiny minority of nutbars religion inevitably attracts and make them out to be a majority.

I am not denying there are some pretty dark areas of religion. As well as some clearly flawed ones. If you can look past that though, it becomes apparent why some people go in for it. I mean, it's not my cup of tea personally, but as it has no meaningful bearing on my life, other people are free to believe whatever they like.

cat_with_no_tail

JamesB5446 wrote:

I don't think it's all about that at all. I just think it's outdated and useless.

I would gladly agree that SOME of the bible is outdated and useless. The bits you quoted for example all represent medieval ways of thinking and are bits I'm sure the church would rather be left out.

But again, the over-riding message that gets preached in churches, mosques and synagogues (sp) all over the world is one of peace and tolerance.



Edit: Unless you're gay, in which case you're pretty much fcuked.

cooldad

Awesome religious war is awesome. I suggest a duel, weapons to be arbitrary torture at the crack of Dawn.

If Dawn's not available, her sister Lola (aka YeehaaMcgee) might be.

JamesB5446

Cat With No Tail wrote:

Would you argue that the general vibe of religion is actually whatever the end user wants it to be?

No.

Cat With No Tail wrote:

And for the most part, what the end user wants is a way to learn to be cool with other people? "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" (sorry, it's actually the only bit of religious text I know without consulting google. Oh, that and "love thy neighbour". Oh, and the bit from pulp fiction, which actually appears to promote violence but sounds pretty cool when Samuel L Jackson says it)

That's not in the bible, Tarantino wrote it.

Cat With No Tail wrote:

The evidence of that is all around you. You just seem determined to focus only on the tiny minority of nutbars religion inevitably attracts and make them out to be a majority.

If you look at a lot of places outside of Europe the nice, believe-what-you-want-but-don't-hate-others crowd are a minority.

Cat With No Tail wrote:

I am not denying there are some pretty dark areas of religion. As well as some clearly flawed ones. If you can look past that though, it becomes apparent why some people go in for it. I mean, it's not my cup of tea personally, but as it has no meaningful bearing on my life, other people are free to believe whatever they like.

They are free to believe what they want, yes. Just as I am free to point out how silly it is to believe that.

Cat With No Tail wrote:

Edit: Unless you're gay, in which case you're pretty much fcuked.

Kinda proved my point there.

YeehaaMcgee

JamesB5446 wrote:

So you were taught that if you don't follow the arbitrary rules you would be tortured for eternity? That's a bit mean, don't you think?

Essentially yes, but not in such a to-the-point way. Much the same way, in fact, as when our parents beat us to within an inch of our lives for eating two bits of chocolate insteadd of one. Or kneecapped us for not doing the dishes when told.
Or that time our mother glassed us for not wanting to eat the microwave dinner she'd prepared (that last one is true, incidentally).

JamesB5446 wrote:

If you look at a lot of places outside of Europe the nice, believe-what-you-want-but-don't-hate-others crowd are a minority.

I think that reflects more upon a national mentality or culture than it does on the strengths of a religion. If those countries weren't religious, then the governments would still be brutal, hate spreading regimes, kinda like Mugabe, Pol Pol etc etc.

JamesB5446

I'm not so sure. Their brutality nearly always seems to be based on religious doctrine.

Obviously there are a few examples based purely on nationalism too, as you've stated, but the two often go hand in hand.

cat_with_no_tail

JamesB5446 wrote:

Cat With No Tail wrote:

Would you argue that the general vibe of religion is actually whatever the end user wants it to be?

No.

Ok, so what would you say it is then? Genuinely interested to hear.

JamesB5446 wrote:

Cat With No Tail wrote:

And for the most part, what the end user wants is a way to learn to be cool with other people? "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us" (sorry, it's actually the only bit of religious text I know without consulting google. Oh, that and "love thy neighbour". Oh, and the bit from pulp fiction, which actually appears to promote violence but sounds pretty cool when Samuel L Jackson says it)

That's not in the bible, Tarantino wrote it.

Ok, thanks.

JamesB5446 wrote:

Cat With No Tail wrote:

The evidence of that is all around you. You just seem determined to focus only on the tiny minority of nutbars religion inevitably attracts and make them out to be a majority.

If you look at a lot of places outside of Europe the nice, believe-what-you-want-but-don't-hate-others crowd are a minority.

Yeehaa has answered this more recently, but I have also pointed out before that if there was no religion, people would find something else to fill its place.

JamesB5446 wrote:

Cat With No Tail wrote:

I am not denying there are some pretty dark areas of religion. As well as some clearly flawed ones. If you can look past that though, it becomes apparent why some people go in for it. I mean, it's not my cup of tea personally, but as it has no meaningful bearing on my life, other people are free to believe whatever they like.

They are free to believe what they want, yes. Just as I am free to point out how silly it is to believe that.

That's correct, you are. I'm just asking why you would want to though. Again, assuming they're not some raving lunatic extremist, what is the point? Do you walk round telling people they've got a silly haircut, or stupid looking glasses, or horrible shirt?
Other than making yourself feel like a big man, what is the point from picking at someones beliefs?

JamesB5446 wrote:

Cat With No Tail wrote:

Edit: Unless you're gay, in which case you're pretty much fcuked.

Kinda proved my point there.

'course I did. :roll: