science vs religion
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Many beliefs ARE stupid and believing in such claptrap IS stupid.thekickingmule wrote:
Calling someone stupid for a belief is belittling, that's quite simple.JamesB5446 wrote:I'm saying that believing in something without proof is stupid.
Let's take for example the stupid yet frighteningly common belief that condoms do not help to prevent the spread of HIV. Or that many homeopathic water-fondlers have the stupid belief that they can cure cancer with water. Or that many people believe the Earth is less than 10,000 years old.
This does not mean that the individual with the stupid belief is stupid of course - they may be perfectly rational in other areas of their life for example.
If people have stupid beliefs then there is nothing wrong in calling them out for it. Stupid beliefs deserve our contempt - particularly if they have the potential to be damaging - my examples above, or where a religious agenda is used to set government policy without regard for the evidence at hand.You only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
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You don't believe in the placebo effect? I'm not sure how I can make it any clearer than this...JamesB5446 wrote:
Because I've seen no evidence for it.YeehaaMcgee wrote:Nonsense. Placebo effect is placebo effect. The belief that a loved one is now at peace can bring great comfort to the bereaved. I can't fathom why you would think otherwise.
As I said, happy to be proven wrong.
it's an incredibly well documented, albeit only partially understood phenomenon.
Because they have "faith". They don't require evidence. The bible is not intended as "evidence" of anything, it's a book that people are meant to gain an insight on life from.JamesB5446 wrote:
Right. I don't know how I can make this any clearer.YeehaaMcgee wrote:No, you asked why they believe in something that's not to be taken literally. The answer is that THEY don't expect it to be taken literally, YOU do.
Why do they believe in god when the only evidence for god comes from a book that they admit is a load of fiction?0 -
I do. But it's not strictly the same thing.YeehaaMcgee wrote:You don't believe in the placebo effect? I'm not sure how I can make it any clearer than this... it's an incredibly well documented, albeit only partially understood phenomenon.
I've seen evidence that placebos can work in medicine.
I've seen no evidence that believing or not believing in god has an impact on how you handle grief.
I can certainly see how the theory would work though.
Right. I'm going to wait for someone who is religious to answer the question because "they believe it because they believe it, aaaah" isn't really cutting it.YeehaaMcgee wrote:Because they have "faith". They don't require evidence. The bible is not intended as "evidence" of anything, it's a book that people are meant to gain an insight on life from. 0 -
It's a pretty fundamental aspect of faith though. Why do you need evidence if you believe?
It's not science, it's not engineering, it's"faith".0 -
Yup. I know.
Faith is stupid. It goes against reason. I'm asking why the people who are clever/educated enough not to believe all the silly stories still believe in the underlying concept?0 -
"Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
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nicklouse wrote:
As well as bacon you need petrol and money or the bitch will drive off with someone else.Visit Clacton during the School holidays - it's like a never ending freak show.
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JamesB5446 wrote:Yup. I know.
Faith is stupid. It goes against reason. I'm asking why the people who are clever/educated enough not to believe all the silly stories still believe in the underlying concept?
Because it helps some people and is responsible for at least as much good as bad in the same way that science is responsible for good and bad. What's not to say that were wrong and that science is merely the working parts of a god created universe. Im not saying that is the case but you never know.
My point is that plausible or not where is the harm in having that faith for the moral majority. Its not religion vs religion or science its lunatic vs lunatic when it comes to war. As said if religion didn't exist it would be something else, look at for example football hooligans, its merely a tribal thing and part of human nature derived from our earliest days, which is science.0 -
But do you not have faith that when you hurtle down a mountain that you'll not break your neck? I'm not saying you have faith that God will save you, but faith you have the skill to not fall off? It's the same thing, just with different reasons.JamesB5446 wrote:Yup. I know.
Faith is stupid. It goes against reason. I'm asking why the people who are clever/educated enough not to believe all the silly stories still believe in the underlying concept?
As CWNT said, we're going round in circles here. You clearly DON'T want to believe anything, therefore aren't listening to anything people are saying.It takes as much courage to have tried and failed as it does to have tried and succeeded.
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spongtastic wrote:
how? what you cant see is the handcuffs.
"Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
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Chunkers1980 wrote:James, I'm religious, God does exist. Prove otherwise.
... and this sort of hands over ears saying "la, la, la I can't hear you" type comment is the reason why these discussions are futile. You can't present a rational argument to someone who holds religious beliefs because faith is, by its nature, irrational. This doesn't make it right or wrong, it's just how it is. No matter how much rational evidence you present, it's impossible to disprove the existence of a deity to someone who wants to believe in one... no point trying.
Again and posted earlier in the thread, whether you're a believer or non-believer, I think this Oatmeal strip nails it especially with regards to indoctrinating children and one religion mocking others. This second point always makes me chuckle... some christian mates of mine were having a laugh at Mitt Romney, the mormons and the magic hat/tablets the other day and I pointed out that their whole religion was founded on the belief in a zombie..
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/religion0 -
Visit Clacton during the School holidays - it's like a never ending freak show.
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Does it though?Gazlar wrote:
Because it helps some people...
People keep saying this but I've not seen any evidence of it.
Nope. I have facts that show it's very unlikely that I'll break my neck.thekickingmule wrote:But do you not have faith that when you hurtle down a mountain that you'll not break your neck? I'm not saying you have faith that God will save you, but faith you have the skill to not fall off? It's the same thing, just with different reasons.
I'm listening to what people are saying and no one is answering the question.thekickingmule wrote:As CWNT said, we're going round in circles here. You clearly DON'T want to believe anything, therefore aren't listening to anything people are saying.0 -
sorry, this just popped up on my facebook and made me chuckle
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TBH I actually agree to different points within both sides of the arguement, but when stuff like this is said its just a bit meh.Chunkers1980 wrote:James, I'm religious, God does exist. Prove otherwise.thekickingmule wrote:You clearly DON'T want to believe anything, therefore aren't listening to anything people are saying.
I hate that point in an arguement its just seems so hypacritical.0 -
Not faith, confidence. Confidence based on evidence accumulated through 37 years of riding bicycles.thekickingmule wrote:But do you not have faith that when you hurtle down a mountain that you'll not break your neck? I'm not saying you have faith that God will save you, but faith you have the skill to not fall off? It's the same thing, just with different reasons.You only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
If it doesn't move and should, use the WD40.
If it shouldn't move and does, use the tape.0 -
thekickingmule wrote:But do you not have faith that when you hurtle down a mountain that you'll not break your neck? I'm not saying you have faith that God will save you, but faith you have the skill to not fall off? It's the same thing, just with different reasons.
Nope, not at all in fact- I have knowledge based on evidence. If I was riding down the trails blindfolded trusting in god to get me down, that'd be faith.Uncompromising extremist0 -
Or launching over a blind crest at a trail center, because you have faith that everything's rideable and send-able at a trail centre?Northwind wrote:thekickingmule wrote:But do you not have faith that when you hurtle down a mountain that you'll not break your neck? I'm not saying you have faith that God will save you, but faith you have the skill to not fall off? It's the same thing, just with different reasons.
Nope, not at all in fact- I have knowledge based on evidence. If I was riding down the trails blindfolded trusting in god to get me down, that'd be faith.0 -
JamesB5446 wrote:.
'Faith is stupid. It goes against reason. I'm asking why the people who are clever/educated enough not to believe all the silly stories still believe in the underlying concept?'
Individual choice is why people believe things. Faith helps those people, even if we cannot see evidence, if those people believe it does. you cannot always generalise the big scale form the smaller.
Consider gravity, in classical physics it does the job very well and there is evidence and laws to explain it. Look at it on the quantum level and it becomes very strange and at present there is no experimental tests for quantum gravity predictions, should I stop believing in gravity because our understanding is not complete.0 -
YeehaaMcgee wrote:Or launching over a blind crest at a trail center, because you have faith that everything's rideable and send-able at a trail centre?
Nope, again that's just making a reasonable assumption based on the situation.Uncompromising extremist0 -
If someone's religious, then I don't see why their belief in a deity is "a reasonable assumption based on a situation".Northwind wrote:YeehaaMcgee wrote:Or launching over a blind crest at a trail center, because you have faith that everything's rideable and send-able at a trail centre?
Nope, again that's just making a reasonable assumption based on the situation.
You know, like those people who narrowly escaped a car crash or something, and believe that god, or an angel was watching over them or somesuch. For them, there's no other explanation.0 -
St Mark wrote:Consider gravity, in classical physics it does the job very well and there is evidence and laws to explain it. Look at it on the quantum level and it becomes very strange and at present there is no experimental tests for quantum gravity predictions, should I stop believing in gravity because our understanding is not complete.
Gravity does weird things
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And some bacon for Nick
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YeehaaMcgee wrote:If someone's religious, then I don't see why their belief in a deity is "a reasonable assumption based on a situation".
Because there is nothing to logically lead them to that assumption. Sticking with the example...
1) I am riding at a trail centre
2) Trail centres are designed for riding bikes on
3) There's a thing up ahead that looks like it can be jumped. As this is a manmade trail, that means it was designed that way.
4) It'll probably be fine to jump it.
vs
1) I crashed a car and didn't die
2) It was god
If, for them, there are no other explanations, it's because they're blind to all the other explanations, not because there aren't any.Uncompromising extremist0 -
No, because our lack of understanding of quantum level forces doesn't stop the observations about gravity being true.St Mark wrote:Individual choice is why people believe things. Faith helps those people, even if we cannot see evidence, if those people believe it does. you cannot always generalise the big scale form the smaller.
Consider gravity, in classical physics it does the job very well and there is evidence and laws to explain it. Look at it on the quantum level and it becomes very strange and at present there is no experimental tests for quantum gravity predictions, should I stop believing in gravity because our understanding is not complete.
If faith did help people there would be evidence of it.
You would be correct apart from the fact that there obviously are other explanations.YeehaaMcgee wrote:If someone's religious, then I don't see why their belief in a deity is "a reasonable assumption based on a situation".
You know, like those people who narrowly escaped a car crash or something, and believe that god, or an angel was watching over them or somesuch. For them, there's no other explanation.
I'm an atheist and so far this year I've stacked a car in to a ditch and been hit by a car on my bike. I survived. Proof that there is no god! 0 -
JamesB5446 wrote
I'm an atheist and so far this year I've stacked a car in to a ditch and been hit by a car on my bike. I survived. Proof that there is no god!
or god can't be ar$ed with you either.0 -
If serial killers 'find God' whilst in prison come out and don't kill another thing is that evidence of faith helping?
I know what you'll say... Who's to say they wouldn't have not killed without God again.
You'll have an answer for everything.
Gazlar of all people hit the nail on the head about your previous post.0 -
JamesB5446 wrote:
No, because our lack of understanding of quantum level forces doesn't stop the observations about gravity being true.St Mark wrote:Individual choice is why people believe things. Faith helps those people, even if we cannot see evidence, if those people believe it does. you cannot always generalise the big scale form the smaller.
Consider gravity, in classical physics it does the job very well and there is evidence and laws to explain it. Look at it on the quantum level and it becomes very strange and at present there is no experimental tests for quantum gravity predictions, should I stop believing in gravity because our understanding is not complete.
If faith did help people there would be evidence of it.
You would be correct apart from the fact that there obviously are other explanations.YeehaaMcgee wrote:If someone's religious, then I don't see why their belief in a deity is "a reasonable assumption based on a situation".
You know, like those people who narrowly escaped a car crash or something, and believe that god, or an angel was watching over them or somesuch. For them, there's no other explanation.
I'm an atheist and so far this year I've stacked a car in to a ditch and been hit by a car on my bike. I survived. Proof that there is no god!
maybe if you believed in god, it/she/he/I would have prevented you from having the accidents.
You're still missing the key point here though, religion, faith, belief etc, is not an evidence based "thing". It requires no evidence, only belief. You're trying to measure it using another "thing's" methods.0
