The official TrainerRoad thread

jgsi

gotwood25 wrote:

Nah using Garmin Vectors so the only change to the setup is me. Woke up this morning full of aches, pains and a bad head so reckon I am going 'full blown' on the cold front. I blame my germ spreading 3 year old.

Never mind, couple of days off and try again I guess.

As and when I actually get my Vector s , might have to pick up some tips from you re using the Garmins.
I do have a torque wrench as it appears the Vectors need fairly precise torqueing up for accuracy.
My ant+ head unit is not a Garmin but a Cateye - I am just hoping that doesnt present any issues.
I can use IpBike app on my Xperia as an alternative though.
I do have the Vector update software already installed on the laptop.
Just awaiting DHL to get their act together.

markp80

jamin100 wrote:

It's a Mac and I have an Apple TV which allows me to stream the contents of the screen to my TV in the living room

That explains that then! :oops:

Do you have in iPad or iPhone? If range is an issue for the Ant+ dongle to your Mac, then maybe you'd be better using an iPad with the iPad-specific dongle, rather than the USB type? - just a thought.

Cheers,
MarkP

gotwood25

JGSI wrote:

gotwood25 wrote:

Nah using Garmin Vectors so the only change to the setup is me. Woke up this morning full of aches, pains and a bad head so reckon I am going 'full blown' on the cold front. I blame my germ spreading 3 year old.

Never mind, couple of days off and try again I guess.

As and when I actually get my Vector s , might have to pick up some tips from you re using the Garmins.
I do have a torque wrench as it appears the Vectors need fairly precise torqueing up for accuracy.
My ant+ head unit is not a Garmin but a Cateye - I am just hoping that doesnt present any issues.
I can use IpBike app on my Xperia as an alternative though.
I do have the Vector update software already installed on the laptop.
Just awaiting DHL to get their act together.

Its very easy although you will need a 15mm crawfoot adapter, and it has to be slim as it neds to go between the spindle and the pod. Other than that, pull the handle till it reads 34nM and that is about it. They are very good, especially when riding out doors and you need to pace long, laborious endurance rides. Take all the guess work away and means you can spend less time on the turbo.

jgsi

gotwood25 wrote:

JGSI wrote:

gotwood25 wrote:

Nah using Garmin Vectors so the only change to the setup is me. Woke up this morning full of aches, pains and a bad head so reckon I am going 'full blown' on the cold front. I blame my germ spreading 3 year old.

Never mind, couple of days off and try again I guess.

As and when I actually get my Vector s , might have to pick up some tips from you re using the Garmins.
I do have a torque wrench as it appears the Vectors need fairly precise torqueing up for accuracy.
My ant+ head unit is not a Garmin but a Cateye - I am just hoping that doesnt present any issues.
I can use IpBike app on my Xperia as an alternative though.
I do have the Vector update software already installed on the laptop.
Just awaiting DHL to get their act together.

Its very easy although you will need a 15mm crawfoot adapter, and it has to be slim as it neds to go between the spindle and the pod. Other than that, pull the handle till it reads 34nM and that is about it. They are very good, especially when riding out doors and you need to pace long, laborious endurance rides. Take all the guess work away and means you can spend less time on the turbo.

Cheers, will I be able to use the torque wrench with a 8mm (presuming 8mm perhaps 6mm?) hex key to do the same?

faarn

gotwood25 wrote:

I'm 4 weeks in to the 'Novice Competitor High Volume' training plan and it has all been going really well until today. Relatively easy week with a couple of endurance rides and one Vo2 Max (Feather) ride which I went to do today but simply couldn't hit the numbers and had to stop halfway literally about to keel over.

I completed the ride over target last week so know I can do it, just felt empty today. Anyone else experienced similar, if so what did you do to rectify? Put it down to 'one of those days'?

I have been doing the sweet spot training and so far so good until today. Went to do the Keeler Needles and could only do 50 mins and even the second half was about 30w below the aimed power just to keep going. This is the first interval type training i have done so put it down to pure fitness whereas my steady state is better. Legs absolute jelly but recovered fairly quickly after i stopped; just didn't have the strength/stamina.

gotwood25

JGSI wrote:

gotwood25 wrote:

JGSI wrote:

gotwood25 wrote:

Nah using Garmin Vectors so the only change to the setup is me. Woke up this morning full of aches, pains and a bad head so reckon I am going 'full blown' on the cold front. I blame my germ spreading 3 year old.

Never mind, couple of days off and try again I guess.

As and when I actually get my Vector s , might have to pick up some tips from you re using the Garmins.
I do have a torque wrench as it appears the Vectors need fairly precise torqueing up for accuracy.
My ant+ head unit is not a Garmin but a Cateye - I am just hoping that doesnt present any issues.
I can use IpBike app on my Xperia as an alternative though.
I do have the Vector update software already installed on the laptop.
Just awaiting DHL to get their act together.

Its very easy although you will need a 15mm crawfoot adapter, and it has to be slim as it neds to go between the spindle and the pod. Other than that, pull the handle till it reads 34nM and that is about it. They are very good, especially when riding out doors and you need to pace long, laborious endurance rides. Take all the guess work away and means you can spend less time on the turbo.

Cheers, will I be able to use the torque wrench with a 8mm (presuming 8mm perhaps 6mm?) hex key to do the same?

Can't use a hex key with the vectors, only a 15mm wrench head will do. The place where you would normally but the hex key is where the pod interfaces with the pedal.

jimmurray

I've got the torque wrench and adaptor but very rarely use them. As long as you put the pedals on and makes they reasonably tight you will be ok. The torque figure from Garmin is more of a minimum, tightening them beyond that the difference to the readings is negligible. If you don't make them tight enough you tend to get big differences in the left/right power percentages. Also need to do a full calibration anytime you tighten the pedals.

jgsi

jimmurray wrote:

I've got the torque wrench and adaptor but very rarely use them. As long as you put the pedals on and makes they reasonably tight you will be ok. The torque figure from Garmin is more of a minimum, tightening them beyond that the difference to the readings is negligible. If you don't make them tight enough you tend to get big differences in the left/right power percentages. Also need to do a full calibration anytime you tighten the pedals.

That makes sense as I have never ever felt the need to torque up my pedals in my lifetime.. but have ordered an overpriced crowfoot nevertheless... money again.
I checked on TR that there is a ZERO CALIBRATION button for the Vectors when the app discovers them.
Garmin have stated that they make the Vectors as 'open source' so no real requirement for a specific Garmin headunit but have to admit getting a little confused over their terminology of angle setting/manual calibration and dynamic calibration.... how to spend a lot of money for a lot of faffin about it better be worth it when I do a genuine ftp test .

arturo_belano

I just got started with this - complete noob to the turbo so impressed with how well it all worked. Kicked off with a 20 min FTP test - My God, thought I saw the black dog towards the end - I now see why there are thousands of turbos on ebay.
Anyhow, looking for advice on a small set-up issue - I'm using a cross bike with a knackered street tyre on the turbo. It gripped the machine ok, but it's a bit squidgy, must be a 32c at least. Is this an issue, or not something to be worried about?

I could get an indoor tyre nae bother but not sure the cross rim would take a 23c tyre, the rim is quite wide (it's a stock CAADX wheel, not sure on the brand). No way would you ride a 23 on that rim but it might be ok on the turbo?

jimmurray

JGSI wrote:

jimmurray wrote:

I've got the torque wrench and adaptor but very rarely use them. As long as you put the pedals on and makes they reasonably tight you will be ok. The torque figure from Garmin is more of a minimum, tightening them beyond that the difference to the readings is negligible. If you don't make them tight enough you tend to get big differences in the left/right power percentages. Also need to do a full calibration anytime you tighten the pedals.

That makes sense as I have never ever felt the need to torque up my pedals in my lifetime.. but have ordered an overpriced crowfoot nevertheless... money again.
I checked on TR that there is a ZERO CALIBRATION button for the Vectors when the app discovers them.
Garmin have stated that they make the Vectors as 'open source' so no real requirement for a specific Garmin headunit but have to admit getting a little confused over their terminology of angle setting/manual calibration and dynamic calibration.... how to spend a lot of money for a lot of faffin about it better be worth it when I do a genuine ftp test .

To be honest I'm not sure how the setup and calibration would work with a non Garmin head unit. It isn't just a matter of getting a calibration value, you need to setup the angles and enter the crank lengths when you install/tighten the pedals. Every ride you then need to do a calibration at the start by pressing calibrate on the Garmin head unit and, if you want to fully calibrate, backpedal x times.

jgsi

jimmurray wrote:

JGSI wrote:

jimmurray wrote:

I've got the torque wrench and adaptor but very rarely use them. As long as you put the pedals on and makes they reasonably tight you will be ok. The torque figure from Garmin is more of a minimum, tightening them beyond that the difference to the readings is negligible. If you don't make them tight enough you tend to get big differences in the left/right power percentages. Also need to do a full calibration anytime you tighten the pedals.

That makes sense as I have never ever felt the need to torque up my pedals in my lifetime.. but have ordered an overpriced crowfoot nevertheless... money again.
I checked on TR that there is a ZERO CALIBRATION button for the Vectors when the app discovers them.
Garmin have stated that they make the Vectors as 'open source' so no real requirement for a specific Garmin headunit but have to admit getting a little confused over their terminology of angle setting/manual calibration and dynamic calibration.... how to spend a lot of money for a lot of faffin about it better be worth it when I do a genuine ftp test .

To be honest I'm not sure how the setup and calibration would work with a non Garmin head unit. It isn't just a matter of getting a calibration value, you need to setup the angles and enter the crank lengths when you install/tighten the pedals. Every ride you then need to do a calibration at the start by pressing calibrate on the Garmin head unit and, if you want to fully calibrate, backpedal x times.

mm, well if thats the case there may be some Vectors going Ebay pretty pronto, as no way can I be laying out another xx000 on a Garmin.

jgsi

Just for info:
Just had reply off Garmin expert : Can do most of the work thru the Vector updater on laptop/ angles are set outside riding for a few minutes..and
"The only thing that you need to have head unit interaction for, is the static zero calibration, and that process is defined as part of the ANT+ bike power profile so all head units that claim to support power meters should support that. "

Gixermark

for those that use trainer road on their computer with a garmin ANT+ stick - that they happen to use to synch with a garmin headunit also ?(i happen to use a 910 XT)

do you have issues with both working ok ?

i find sometime for my workouts to synch/download from my garmin... i have to plug the stick in/out... +/or turn the garmin on/off to get it to work...

first time i used trainer road i had to fiddle about with the harmin agent to then it noticed and synch with mt speed/cadence and HR etc.. and did the 2nd time i used it automatically.

today.. i went to use TR again, and it didnt synch/see my HR/speed cadence... i played around with the garmin agent.. but gave up and just did the workout with out the incoming data....

do most folk find its better/easier to have a stick for each ?

if thats the case - i'll prob look at the iOS solution and use the iPad....

Gixermark

sorry - another question.......

i did the 20 min FTP test last week.. and will prob do another one just before xmas.... my question is, is the actual FTP measurement taken as some average of power throughout the test ? or only the ~90% (or whatever is it) of the 20 min effort block ?

i found the whole thing VERY tough !! the early sections i did think were tough for a warm up... the 20 min piece was relaly hard to guage as to how hard i could push/hold - but i guess that comes with time... and although painful, will help with TT practice.

jgsi

Gixermark wrote:

for those that use trainer road on their computer with a garmin ANT+ stick - that they happen to use to synch with a garmin headunit also ?(i happen to use a 910 XT)

do you have issues with both working ok ?

i find sometime for my workouts to synch/download from my garmin... i have to plug the stick in/out... +/or turn the garmin on/off to get it to work...

first time i used trainer road i had to fiddle about with the harmin agent to then it noticed and synch with mt speed/cadence and HR etc.. and did the 2nd time i used it automatically.

today.. i went to use TR again, and it didnt synch/see my HR/speed cadence... i played around with the garmin agent.. but gave up and just did the workout with out the incoming data....

do most folk find its better/easier to have a stick for each ?

if thats the case - i'll prob look at the iOS solution and use the iPad....

Quite possibly if you are running the Garmin agent software also on the laptop at the same time as trying to use TR, the agent will 'hog' the ANT+ dongle and not allow TR to find the service. Disable the agent.

Gixermark

thanks.. so essentially you need to disable the agent (just use the 'exit' function) ? and then when you want to download your data from garmin device to the garmin website.. i have to re enable ?

seems abit of a faff.. but i guess the stick can only talk/communicate with one 'device' hence the issue

BSRU

Gixermark wrote:

sorry - another question.......

i did the 20 min FTP test last week.. and will prob do another one just before xmas.... my question is, is the actual FTP measurement taken as some average of power throughout the test ? or only the ~90% (or whatever is it) of the 20 min effort block ?

i found the whole thing VERY tough !! the early sections i did think were tough for a warm up... the 20 min piece was relaly hard to guage as to how hard i could push/hold - but i guess that comes with time... and although painful, will help with TT practice.

I think for the 20m FTP test you multiply the average power for the 20mins by 0.95.

Gixermark

i just let TR do the calculating after the test... my question was do they only calculate based on that piece of the test - or an average of the whole test..... ?

handful

I believe it's the percentage of the 20 minutes. The theory is if you could sustain the power for the hour then that would be your FTP but the percentage is a rough estimation of the power you could sustain IF you rode for an hour.

If you felt it was too tough then you may have gone out too hard. The idea is you sustain the effort for the whole 20 minutes. If you can have a burst of energy at the end you weren't pushing hard enough! Similarly if your power drops significantly in the last 5 minutes you were pushing too hard.

Dippydog3

Google "how does Trainer road calculate FTP" and you will get a proper explanation.

Dippydog3

Google "how does Trainer road calculate FTP" and you will get a proper explanation.

iron_duke

handful wrote:

I believe it's the percentage of the 20 minutes. The theory is if you could sustain the power for the hour then that would be your FTP but the percentage is a rough estimation of the power you could sustain IF you rode for an hour.

If you felt it was too tough then you may have gone out too hard. The idea is you sustain the effort for the whole 20 minutes. If you can have a burst of energy at the end you weren't pushing hard enough! Similarly if your power drops significantly in the last 5 minutes you were pushing too hard.

Reminds me a little of Boardmans fantastic take of TT pacing

"The key equation I had in my head was: how far is it to go and is my current pace sustainable? If the answer is yes then you’re not going hard enough, if the answer is no then it’s already too late, so the answer you’re looking for is maybe, and that effort is totally relevant to the distance."

handful

Dippydog3 wrote:

Google "how does Trainer road calculate FTP" and you will get a proper explanation.

Add 95% to my previous post and it pretty much sums it up. If you haven't got anything useful to say then why bother saying it.

jgsi

now now, this is the single good natured thread on BR...
pacing for 20 minutes is not easy and thus in respect of getting it right thru the pain you get to receive 95% of your efforts as a reward.
As anyone who does summer 10s, you think you are going to enjoy them when the wind is slight and the sun is out, but you never do.

handful

I agree and I apologise, was just taken aback by the rather offensive reaction to what was intended to be a helpful answer.

Anyway, up at 5.30 this morning to do Jepson which was ok. I quite like sweet spot sessions.

jgsi

1st ride with the Garmin Vectors (s)
http://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/ride ... June-2013-
The difference between VP model and the power meter is not as out as many would suggest but yes the PM ride made it 'harder'. So my threshold is not far off to the point that I blew at the end of the ride but have had a fairly strenuous training week.
The Vectors were up and loaded within 15 minutes of unboxing.

Dippydog3

I have recently switched from VP on a Cycleops to a Wattbike with its built in power meters. I found virtually no difference in power readings, but I would suggest than anyone changing kit redoes the FTP test, just to be on the safe side.

I am not really fussed what the actual numbers are. What matters to me is persojal progression and I was concerned with comparing apples with pears.

jgsi

Just a snapshot to show that Virtual Power and data from a power meter (Vectors) is not so marked.

Calpol

End of my first week of Trainerroad. I like it and its going to be a big help over the winter. However I think i have spotted a couple of flaws in the virtual power thing.
1. Did the 20 minute FTP test. It said 314w which seemed too high for me. No matter its all about improvement I said.
2. Was moving the turbo etc and ended up altering the tension of the roller on the back wheel. It was slightly slipping before so I notched it half a turn. Jeez what a difference. I was gasping on the next two workouts trying to hold the watts they were demanding.
3. No way that I can maintain 314W so I have manually adjusted it down a bit

Didnt realise the calibration would be so sensitive. Anyway, looking forward to week 2.

jgsi

Calpol wrote:

End of my first week of Trainerroad. I like it and its going to be a big help over the winter. However I think i have spotted a couple of flaws in the virtual power thing.
1. Did the 20 minute FTP test. It said 314w which seemed too high for me. No matter its all about improvement I said.
2. Was moving the turbo etc and ended up altering the tension of the roller on the back wheel. It was slightly slipping before so I notched it half a turn. Jeez what a difference. I was gasping on the next two workouts trying to hold the watts they were demanding.
3. No way that I can maintain 314W so I have manually adjusted it down a bit

Didnt realise the calibration would be so sensitive. Anyway, looking forward to week 2.

Sadly, there is NO essential flaw in TR, because the 'FTP' number is based on virtuality not reality in the end analysis.
However, with a good consistent setup of your training rig it can come close but that depends on the equipment you are using. I have had excellent feel to the workouts on a Satori for a long time and have now swapped over to Vectors. The diagram I posted earlier shows the power meter line below the virtual number.. not by that much but enough to make re assess my training strategy: