Olympic RR *SPOILERS*

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Comments

  • wallace_and_gromit
    wallace_and_gromit Posts: 3,390
    Graeme_S wrote:
    Agree with the others that the Aussies and Germany totally cut their noses off to spite their faces with their tactics. I know Australia had O'Grady in the break, but if they thought he was going to get a medal from that group then they were dreaming. Goss would have been almost certain to get a medal of some colour from a bunch sprint.

    This, to me, is why the mens' RR in the OGs should not be contested by the pros. There are simply too many guys riding for whom winning the race, or being on the winning team, is not a prime objective. The OGs should be about winning, or dying - metaphorically, a la Wiggo - in the process of trying.

    The German tactics were simply unacceptable to me. They had a guy who would have had a very good chance in the bunch sprint and they just weren't interested in helping to bring it back together. I actually prefer dopers to people who just don't try!
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Wallace and Gromit wrote:

    The German tactics were simply unacceptable to me. They had a guy who would have had a very good chance in the bunch sprint and they just weren't interested in helping to bring it back together. I actually prefer dopers to people who just don't try!

    If GB had brought it back and were knackered for the sprint, and Greipel won, would it have been the right tactic?

    I always though the tactic should be to refuse to help GB. A few folks validly argued that because people want a medal, other teams would help. But I see nothing wrong with not working. It was a gamble. It failed.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,660
    I would have guessed that the podium after a Bunch sprint would have been a variation on Cavendish, Goss and Greipel (deliberatly put in alphabetical order). The question (i suppose) is how much value are the silver and bronze medals..? Unfortunatly, probably not a lot...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • squired
    squired Posts: 1,153
    When the break was getting large GB should have got someone to bridge across to it. So, as they were approacing the final climb of Box Hill they should've made an on-the-road decision for one guy to go with any attacks. It could have been Cav or someone else. Had Cav gone across his team mates could have rested a little and then had some energy left to lead him out at the end. Then again, I often felt that Sky should have done the same in the TDF more often (i.e. get someone into some of the larger breaks).
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,660
    They did nt have time for that squired - If someone had gone in the break that would have been game over for the bunch sprint and GB's best shot at winning. Aus and germany still would nt have chased ...

    Obviously we now know that the rider in the brak would have had a shot at victory, but at the time that was nt clear at all.
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,655
    What I've noticed in the mainstream coverage is a pretty basic understanding of tactics, but a failure to associate the tactics with effort.

    People are saying the Brits should have either chased the break harder or got into the break.

    All well and fine, but after a good 150km on the front that's not easy!
    _
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    iainf72 wrote:
    Wallace and Gromit wrote:

    The German tactics were simply unacceptable to me. They had a guy who would have had a very good chance in the bunch sprint and they just weren't interested in helping to bring it back together. I actually prefer dopers to people who just don't try!

    If GB had brought it back and were knackered for the sprint, and Greipel won, would it have been the right tactic?

    I always though the tactic should be to refuse to help GB. A few folks validly argued that because people want a medal, other teams would help. But I see nothing wrong with not working. It was a gamble. It failed.

    That was how I read it. Germany rode a perfect race until the last 30km.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • graeme_s-2
    graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,382
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    What I've noticed in the mainstream coverage is a pretty basic understanding of tactics, but a failure to associate the tactics with effort.

    People are saying the Brits should have either chased the break harder or got into the break.

    All well and fine, but after a good 150km on the front that's not easy!
    That Becky Adlington did quite well in the swimming last night, but what she really should have done is swum faster. She'd have won gold then! :D
  • bigmat
    bigmat Posts: 5,134
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    Wallace and Gromit wrote:

    The German tactics were simply unacceptable to me. They had a guy who would have had a very good chance in the bunch sprint and they just weren't interested in helping to bring it back together. I actually prefer dopers to people who just don't try!

    If GB had brought it back and were knackered for the sprint, and Greipel won, would it have been the right tactic?

    I always though the tactic should be to refuse to help GB. A few folks validly argued that because people want a medal, other teams would help. But I see nothing wrong with not working. It was a gamble. It failed.

    That was how I read it. Germany rode a perfect race until the last 30km.

    Was tricky to follow on the big screen, but were Germany not helping chase on the run in? I just thought they were no use - looked like Grabsch did a few stints. Re putting someone in the break on final run up Box Hill, that would have had to be Cav to have been any help to GB. Did he have the legs? I know Millar says he did, but I wonder. Only 40 seconds at the end - gutting!
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/41991871@N ... otostream/
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,655
    Most of the Germans I saw were flying out of the back....
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,655
    Graeme_S wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    What I've noticed in the mainstream coverage is a pretty basic understanding of tactics, but a failure to associate the tactics with effort.

    People are saying the Brits should have either chased the break harder or got into the break.

    All well and fine, but after a good 150km on the front that's not easy!
    That Becky Adlington did quite well in the swimming last night, but what she really should have done is swum faster. She'd have won gold then! :D

    Exactly.
    _
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    BigMat wrote:
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    Wallace and Gromit wrote:

    The German tactics were simply unacceptable to me. They had a guy who would have had a very good chance in the bunch sprint and they just weren't interested in helping to bring it back together. I actually prefer dopers to people who just don't try!

    If GB had brought it back and were knackered for the sprint, and Greipel won, would it have been the right tactic?

    I always though the tactic should be to refuse to help GB. A few folks validly argued that because people want a medal, other teams would help. But I see nothing wrong with not working. It was a gamble. It failed.

    That was how I read it. Germany rode a perfect race until the last 30km.

    Was tricky to follow on the big screen, but were Germany not helping chase on the run in? I just thought they were no use - looked like Grabsch did a few stints. Re putting someone in the break on final run up Box Hill, that would have had to be Cav to have been any help to GB. Did he have the legs? I know Millar says he did, but I wonder. Only 40 seconds at the end - gutting!

    They were, but they joined too late (about 20km to go I think). I think they expected GB to chase down the break and then to be able to boss the peloton on the flat run in. They left it too late to start helping and the gap was too big to bridge.

    Rogers explaining tersely to Wiggins that as they had O Grady up front, they wouldn't be riding was one of my highlights too.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • startern
    startern Posts: 175
    It was Up, Down, Up, Down all the way. Vino +1.

    That course was painful even to watch.
  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    disgruntledgoat wrote:
    iainf72 wrote:
    Wallace and Gromit wrote:

    The German tactics were simply unacceptable to me. They had a guy who would have had a very good chance in the bunch sprint and they just weren't interested in helping to bring it back together. I actually prefer dopers to people who just don't try!

    If GB had brought it back and were knackered for the sprint, and Greipel won, would it have been the right tactic?

    I always though the tactic should be to refuse to help GB. A few folks validly argued that because people want a medal, other teams would help. But I see nothing wrong with not working. It was a gamble. It failed.

    That was how I read it. Germany rode a perfect race until the last 30km.

    Oh well they usually get most thing right however [older generation speak]they have a tendency to make a couple of gross misjudgements every century [older generation speak]
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • graeme_s-2
    graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,382
    A cycling mate of mine sent me a text with the following insightful line - "With the benefit of hindsight it seems obvious that team GB had very little chance of winning, thanks to those awful foreigners trying to beat them..." :D

    I thought Vino deserved it on the day, but it did leave a bit of a bad taste in the mouth. Would have far preferred Cancellara to win, felt so sorry for him when he crossed the line looking like a broken man and had to be consoled by one of the Swiss coaches.
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    Graeme_S wrote:
    A cycling mate of mine sent me a text with the following insightful line - "With the benefit of hindsight it seems obvious that team GB had very little chance of winning, thanks to those awful foreigners trying to beat them..." :D

    I thought Vino deserved it on the day, but it did leave a bit of a bad taste in the mouth. Would have far preferred Cancellara to win, felt so sorry for him when he crossed the line looking like a broken man and had to be consoled by one of the Swiss coaches.

    It was the looming realisation that he'd cost me £2.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • carl_p
    carl_p Posts: 989
    squired wrote:
    When the break was getting large GB should have got someone to bridge across to it. So, as they were approacing the final climb of Box Hill they should've made an on-the-road decision for one guy to go with any attacks. It could have been Cav or someone else. Had Cav gone across his team mates could have rested a little and then had some energy left to lead him out at the end. Then again, I often felt that Sky should have done the same in the TDF more often (i.e. get someone into some of the larger breaks).

    I think GB would have needed at least 2 + Cav for him to Bridge. Leaving Cav behind would have been a huge gamble since all the best riders were already in the break. No way would the break have been caught without the full GB team in it.
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    Turn the corner, rub my eyes and hope the world will last...
  • richa
    richa Posts: 1,632
    My thoughts are that GB were doing ok intil the last ascent of Box. Letting Cancellara, Tejay, et al go (and join Nibali, etc) was THE oversight. They were at/near the front of the pelaton at the time, and if you can't recognise Cancellara tear up the road then you' better get to specsavers. So we must presume they let him go (Millar tweeted that Cav had the legs to go with this break). Once there were 30+ stong riders ahead representing every major nation except GB, GER & FRA they were never going to claw back 40secs on a down hill run in to London using 4guys with 200km of fatigue in their legs (even with the Germans).
    Rich
  • alihisgreat
    alihisgreat Posts: 3,872
    Graeme_S wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    What I've noticed in the mainstream coverage is a pretty basic understanding of tactics, but a failure to associate the tactics with effort.

    People are saying the Brits should have either chased the break harder or got into the break.

    All well and fine, but after a good 150km on the front that's not easy!
    That Becky Adlington did quite well in the swimming last night, but what she really should have done is swum faster. She'd have won gold then! :D


    Should've doped like that Chinese woman.. then she would swim faster than the men!
  • squired
    squired Posts: 1,153
    The Germans didn't go all out, but they definitely put riders on the front. I can distinctly remember Tony Martin on the front when they rode past on one (possibly two) laps, because I remarked how unhealthy his face looked. I also remarked how ugly Cadel Evans is in person, but that is a different story.

    GB tactics were to stay together. While I can see why they didn't send someone away early on I do think it was a big mistake for someone (ideally Cav) to jump with the attack on the final ascent of BH. They must've known how many people were already away and that having so many different countries represented in the break would leave them riding alone.

    Yesterday after LA's well earned silver medal Dave Brailsford was talking about how you need to adapt according to what is happening on the road. We had a sole game plan and showed no adaptation on Saturday.
  • emadden
    emadden Posts: 2,431
    ilovebigwig wrote:
    Timoid. wrote:
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Ireland didnt figure at all in this race. Martin, Roche and McCann were their riders. They all finished in the Cav group. At least one of them should have tried to have gone with the first group.

    Agreed. We were embarrassing. Our best chance was sitting at home cursing the selectors. McCann doesn't have the class, but Roche and Martin should hang their heads in shame. Not so much as a dig off the front. Poor.

    Agreed again - they caught a lot of TV time hanging around at the back, very disappointing.

    As an Irishman I have to agree with all of this. Yes, the Irish were pathetic. There is no excuse for it. I bet Matt Brammier would have at least tried an attack... even if it were futile.. at least he would fly the flag. Maybe these guys just think it was a "chipper", but then they shouldnt be going to the race and taking up the places of other riders who want to have shot. BTW, I am generally pissed off with the Irish contingent in general across all sports. Are the Irish really that shoot at sport???... all of our athletes being knocked out in first rounds, athletes failing to get near their PBs...... I may get flammed for this, but Im making no apologies. Its as if for the Irish its only about participating - "sure isnt it grand... not everyone can win... sure what harm, dont we have the GAA finals to look forward to in September"... FFS ... pathetic... booze, booze, booze and a bit of GAA
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  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    emadden wrote:
    ilovebigwig wrote:
    Timoid. wrote:
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Ireland didnt figure at all in this race. Martin, Roche and McCann were their riders. They all finished in the Cav group. At least one of them should have tried to have gone with the first group.

    Agreed. We were embarrassing. Our best chance was sitting at home cursing the selectors. McCann doesn't have the class, but Roche and Martin should hang their heads in shame. Not so much as a dig off the front. Poor.

    Agreed again - they caught a lot of TV time hanging around at the back, very disappointing.

    As an Irishman I have to agree with all of this. Yes, the Irish were pathetic. There is no excuse for it. I bet Matt Brammier would have at least tried an attack... even if it were futile.. at least he would fly the flag. Maybe these guys just think it was a "chipper", but then they shouldnt be going to the race and taking up the places of other riders who want to have shot. BTW, I am generally pissed off with the Irish contingent in general across all sports. Are the Irish really that shoot at sport???... all of our athletes being knocked out in first rounds, athletes failing to get near their PBs...... I may get flammed for this, but Im making no apologies. Its as if for the Irish its only about participating - "sure isnt it grand... not everyone can win... sure what harm, dont we have the GAA finals to look forward to in September"... FFS ... pathetic... booze, booze, booze and a bit of GAA


    Except a certain member of this forum...
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 19,310
    emadden wrote:
    ilovebigwig wrote:
    Timoid. wrote:
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Ireland didnt figure at all in this race. Martin, Roche and McCann were their riders. They all finished in the Cav group. At least one of them should have tried to have gone with the first group.

    Agreed. We were embarrassing. Our best chance was sitting at home cursing the selectors. McCann doesn't have the class, but Roche and Martin should hang their heads in shame. Not so much as a dig off the front. Poor.

    Agreed again - they caught a lot of TV time hanging around at the back, very disappointing.

    As an Irishman I have to agree with all of this. Yes, the Irish were pathetic. There is no excuse for it. I bet Matt Brammier would have at least tried an attack... even if it were futile.. at least he would fly the flag. Maybe these guys just think it was a "chipper", but then they shouldnt be going to the race and taking up the places of other riders who want to have shot. BTW, I am generally pissed off with the Irish contingent in general across all sports. Are the Irish really that shoot at sport???... all of our athletes being knocked out in first rounds, athletes failing to get near their PBs...... I may get flammed for this, but Im making no apologies. Its as if for the Irish its only about participating - "sure isnt it grand... not everyone can win... sure what harm, dont we have the GAA finals to look forward to in September"... FFS ... pathetic... booze, booze, booze and a bit of GAA


    Not walking the dog today Roy?


    Any time I seen the Irish riders they were chatting at the back of the peleton. Shame.
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • emadden
    emadden Posts: 2,431
    I should add, that the comment though about McCann having no class is a bit harsh... He may not be in the same league as the "protour" guys, but he does ride hard in these events (usually) - I save him some flak as he is riding the TT, but still, come on guys, its the freaking Olympics... One day every 4 years - and an Olympics which will never be as a close to home again.... Damn frustrating.
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  • emadden
    emadden Posts: 2,431
    TailWindHome wrote:


    Not walking the dog today Roy?


    Any time I seen the Irish riders they were chatting at the back of the peloton. Shame.


    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol: naaah... too hot here in SG... Am from Cork though! I think we all walk the dog there :D
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  • tarmacpro
    tarmacpro Posts: 18
    emadden wrote:
    ilovebigwig wrote:
    Timoid. wrote:
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Ireland didnt figure at all in this race. Martin, Roche and McCann were their riders. They all finished in the Cav group. At least one of them should have tried to have gone with the first group.

    Agreed. We were embarrassing. Our best chance was sitting at home cursing the selectors. McCann doesn't have the class, but Roche and Martin should hang their heads in shame. Not so much as a dig off the front. Poor.

    Agreed again - they caught a lot of TV time hanging around at the back, very disappointing.

    As an Irishman I have to agree with all of this. Yes, the Irish were pathetic. There is no excuse for it. I bet Matt Brammier would have at least tried an attack... even if it were futile.. at least he would fly the flag. Maybe these guys just think it was a "chipper", but then they shouldnt be going to the race and taking up the places of other riders who want to have shot. BTW, I am generally pissed off with the Irish contingent in general across all sports. Are the Irish really that shoot at sport???... all of our athletes being knocked out in first rounds, athletes failing to get near their PBs...... I may get flammed for this, but Im making no apologies. Its as if for the Irish its only about participating - "sure isnt it grand... not everyone can win... sure what harm, dont we have the GAA finals to look forward to in September"... FFS ... pathetic... booze, booze, booze and a bit of GAA


    As a fellow irishman i totally agree with you. I was watching it on TV and thinking to myself WTF are they doing sitting on the back..is it just a day out in London for them. This morning Dan Martin posted on twitter "thanks for the incredible support despite the disappointing result. Wrong place , wrong time but nobody more frustrated or in regret than me"....i sent him a tweet asking what was he doing sitting on the back of the peolton all day and fair play he did reply to me saying "because it was really easy back there. Moved up each time for the climb. Just got blocked in each time attack went"

    I dont buy this though...how can you sit at the back and move up for the climb each time and then say you got blocked in..you should be at the front all the time and then not have to worry about that....very disappointing
  • FransJacques
    FransJacques Posts: 2,148
    RichA wrote:
    My thoughts are that GB were doing ok intil the last ascent of Box. Letting Cancellara, Tejay, et al go (and join Nibali, etc) was THE oversight. They were at/near the front of the peloton at the time, and if you can't recognise Cancellara tear up the road then you' better get to specsavers. So we must presume they let him go (Millar tweeted that Cav had the legs to go with this break). Once there were 30+ stong riders ahead representing every major nation except GB, GER & FRA they were never going to claw back 40secs on a down hill run in to London using 4 guys with 200km of fatigue in their legs (even with the Germans).
    FRA had Chavanel in the front group so it was a big fail by GER and GBR not to close down a break with 3 riders from SPA, CH, USA and 2 riders from ITA, BEL, NED, USA, plus all the other nations...even if they were not riding together all that well. I was personally surprised they stayed away. Only when they hit Rich Park did I think that it was a keeper.

    GER and GBR brought knives to a gun fight - or - sprint tactics to a break race. But the Olympics and Worlds are always a bit quirky...

    To belly-ache about not getting help or negative riding is negative itself and against Olympic values and spirit. Just say you got beat by a group of 22 riders and the best guy won. Jen Voigt wouldn't go on feeling the victim :-)

    Plus David Millar is every bit as much a druggie as Vino yet it's ok for him to win a Tour stage. Vino is, like Putin or Assad, totally unapologetic. Maybe this is what the press have an issue with.
    When a cyclist has a disagreement with a car; it's not who's right, it's who's left.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    FransJacques wrote:

    Plus David Millar is every bit as much a druggie as Vino yet it's ok for him to win a Tour stage. Vino is, like Putin or Assad, totally unapologetic. Maybe this is what the press have an issue with.

    If you can't tell the difference between Millar and Vino, well then I have no words.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • thiscocks
    thiscocks Posts: 549
    Graeme_S wrote:
    A cycling mate of mine sent me a text with the following insightful line - "With the benefit of hindsight it seems obvious that team GB had very little chance of winning, thanks to those awful foreigners trying to beat them..." :D

    I thought Vino deserved it on the day, but it did leave a bit of a bad taste in the mouth. Would have far preferred Cancellara to win, felt so sorry for him when he crossed the line looking like a broken man and had to be consoled by one of the Swiss coaches.
    Why, do you think he is still on drugs and somehow has managed to trick his way out of hundreds of tests hes had since 2009? He would have outsprinted Cancellara anyway.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,655
    thiscocks wrote:
    He would have outsprinted Cancellara anyway.

    Who, Vino?

    Not a chance.
    _

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