Olympic RR *SPOILERS*

mfin

RichN95 wrote:

mfin wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Boonen's comments actually support what I've always thought about scrapping race radios - that it just makes teams conservative and they will stick to set plans.

You can deduce that to some kind of certainty from Boonen's comments and today's race???

I can't deduce it with certainty, neither can anyone say with certainty that I'm wrong. It's just my considered opinion and what Boonen said argees with it: "It was so hard to communicate. You had to stick with your first plan because you can't tell anyone anything"

Yeah, but the other bit I wrote was to do with years and years and years of cycling pre-radios, and was all that racing 'conservative' and teams 'sticking to plans'???

Its more difficult for this generation to adjust, cos radios is all they know, and that's how the tactics are dictated to them. ....but, radios are here to stay, so I suppose the whole thing is a mute point.

Gladiator

Ive been saying it for years, Cavendish is overated. I dont dislike the guy and hes a good cyclist obviously, but i think hes bigged up way more than he should be. The fastest man? For sure but he needs a perfect lead out in order to acieve it.

Today was rubbish, its no good him moaning about other teams, why should they help Team GB? And if he doesnt like it, then go out and do it yourself instead of sitting behind team mates. They saw the break and should have reacted, they should have gone with them, it was a huge break, not 3 or 4 riders that the peloton could have caught.

Fact is, Cavendish just cant climb, and if he was that great Dave Brailsford would be falling over himself to keep him at Team Sky but the fact hes said he can go if he wants tells you everything. You wouldnt hear Jose Mourinho saying that about Ronaldo.

Yellow Peril

Gladiator wrote:

Ive been saying it for years, Cavendish is overated. I dont dislike the guy and hes a good cyclist obviously, but i think hes bigged up way more than he should be. The fastest man? For sure but he needs a perfect lead out in order to acieve it.
Today was rubbish, its no good him moaning about other teams, why should they help Team GB? And if he doesnt like it, then go out and do it yourself instead of sitting behind team mates. They saw the break and should have reacted, they should have gone with them, it was a huge break, not 3 or 4 riders that the peloton could have caught.

Fact is, Cavendish just cant climb, and if he was that great Dave Brailsford would be falling over himself to keep him at Team Sky but the fact hes said he can go if he wants tells you everything. You wouldnt hear Jose Mourinho saying that about Ronaldo.

But he doesn't does he? that's why no other team would work because his track record shows he is dangerous in a sprint with or without a lead out. You comment about needing a perfect leadout applies more to Greipel than Cavendish that is why he wouldn't sacrifice any of his team in the chase until it was too late.

jim453

Gladiator wrote:

Ive been saying it for years, Cavendish is overated. I dont dislike the guy and hes a good cyclist obviously, but i think hes bigged up way more than he should be. The fastest man? For sure but he needs a perfect lead out in order to acieve it.

Today was rubbish, its no good him moaning about other teams, why should they help Team GB? And if he doesnt like it, then go out and do it yourself instead of sitting behind team mates. They saw the break and should have reacted, they should have gone with them, it was a huge break, not 3 or 4 riders that the peloton could have caught.

Fact is, Cavendish just cant climb, and if he was that great Dave Brailsford would be falling over himself to keep him at Team Sky but the fact hes said he can go if he wants tells you everything. You wouldnt hear Jose Mourinho saying that about Ronaldo.

You don't really understand team-road racing do you.

RichN95.

mfin wrote:

Yeah, but the other bit I wrote was to do with years and years and years of cycling pre-radios, and was all that racing 'conservative' and teams 'sticking to plans'???

Those years were a couple of decades ago. Tactics have changed, WT points have become more important and teams have more strength in depth. Almost all sports have become more tactically conservative in the last couple of decades.

If a rider is told to do a certain job at the beginning of a race by his DS, he's going to do that job, he won't use his initiative, because this is his livelihood and he doesn't want to get a bollocking from his DS.

All these riders have been riding with radios their whole career. They're not going to suddenly develop a different tactical outlook just because there is no radio.

twotyred

Gladiator wrote:Ive been saying it for years, Cavendish is overated. I dont dislike the guy and hes a good cyclist obviously, but i think hes bigged up way more than he should be. The fastest man? For sure but he needs a perfect lead out in order to acieve it.

Today was rubbish, its no good him moaning about other teams, why should they help Team GB? And if he doesnt like it, then go out and do it yourself instead of sitting behind team mates. They saw the break and should have reacted, they should have gone with them, it was a huge break, not 3 or 4 riders that the peloton could have caught.

Fact is, Cavendish just cant climb, and if he was that great Dave Brailsford would be falling over himself to keep him at Team Sky but the fact hes said he can go if he wants tells you everything. You wouldnt hear Jose Mourinho saying that about Ronaldo.



You don't really understand team-road racing do you.

Millar's tweeted the following

"We did what we'd planned. Cav had the legs to go with the attacks on the last climb but trusted our ability to bring it home. Gutted"

Doesn't sound to me like Cavendish couldn't climb and go with the break. Plus to a pro Box hill isn't exactly a climb.

dcj

its amazing to me that GB is now the strongest cycling nation on the road to the extent that the main teams admit their focus was on beating us. when you think about that for a moment its quite a staggering achievement from being the laughing stock until about last year.

it is a situation we should be really proud of. reading some of the posts on the 28 pages of this thread, i wonder why people enjoy picking something apart that other established cycling nations basically envy.

Gladiator

jim453 wrote:

Gladiator wrote:

Ive been saying it for years, Cavendish is overated. I dont dislike the guy and hes a good cyclist obviously, but i think hes bigged up way more than he should be. The fastest man? For sure but he needs a perfect lead out in order to acieve it.

Today was rubbish, its no good him moaning about other teams, why should they help Team GB? And if he doesnt like it, then go out and do it yourself instead of sitting behind team mates. They saw the break and should have reacted, they should have gone with them, it was a huge break, not 3 or 4 riders that the peloton could have caught.

Fact is, Cavendish just cant climb, and if he was that great Dave Brailsford would be falling over himself to keep him at Team Sky but the fact hes said he can go if he wants tells you everything. You wouldnt hear Jose Mourinho saying that about Ronaldo.

You don't really understand team-road racing do you.

I know it inside out, i run a team. What i do know is that people get blinded by the media, and dont have the balls to admit when something isnt as good as it cracked up to be. A voice on a forum doesnt make you an expert, real life does, try it sometime. Unless youre all show and no go?

alihisgreat

Rick Chasey wrote:

Another comment.

Cancellara looked like he was gliding up the top each time he went up (I was maybe 600m away from the cake-stop @ box hill).

Boonen looked good too. Puncture with 10km to go and still is 2nd in the bunch sprint isn't bad.

Evans is always smaller than he looks on TV.

Millar was pretty small... so was Cav... just looked so low compared to everyone else! Its nice to get more of a perspective than on TV though.

Wiggo looked majestic as was expect.. so skinny. Looks perfect on the bike.

Best 'race face' of the day goes to Gilbert:


(a few of the turkish guys, the Georgian and the Iranian were giving him a run for his money though)

Gladiator

twotyred wrote:

Gladiator wrote:Ive been saying it for years, Cavendish is overated. I dont dislike the guy and hes a good cyclist obviously, but i think hes bigged up way more than he should be. The fastest man? For sure but he needs a perfect lead out in order to acieve it.

Today was rubbish, its no good him moaning about other teams, why should they help Team GB? And if he doesnt like it, then go out and do it yourself instead of sitting behind team mates. They saw the break and should have reacted, they should have gone with them, it was a huge break, not 3 or 4 riders that the peloton could have caught.

Fact is, Cavendish just cant climb, and if he was that great Dave Brailsford would be falling over himself to keep him at Team Sky but the fact hes said he can go if he wants tells you everything. You wouldnt hear Jose Mourinho saying that about Ronaldo.

Had a dream team behind him and the legs did he? Did he win then?
Excuses. Simple as

You don't really understand team-road racing do you.

Millar's tweeted the following

"We did what we'd planned. Cav had the legs to go with the attacks on the last climb but trusted our ability to bring it home. Gutted"

Doesn't sound to me like Cavendish couldn't climb and go with the break. Plus to a pro Box hill isn't exactly a climb.

mfin

RichN95 wrote:

All these riders have been riding with radios their whole career. They're not going to suddenly develop a different tactical outlook just because there is no radio.

That's basically what I said too.

But, ...if radios were banned fully then racing would not stay conservative in the long term, it would re-adjust, years ago it was not conservative.

What it does show is what can happen if radios aren't used on the odd race in amongst a calendar of races where radios are. But, today was also quite odd, after all, it was the olympics and obviously all the main teams in the peloton rode their tactics based around what they thought GB would do/have to do.

GB put their eggs in one basket and it affected everyone else, and way before the day actually came round. In fact, Im not too sure they would have adjusted their strategies into helping the peloton chase down if they did have radios today.

Yellow Peril

dcj wrote:

its amazing to me that GB is now the strongest cycling nation on the road to the extent that the main teams admit their focus was on beating us. when you think about that for a moment its quite a staggering achievement from being the laughing stock until about last year.

it is a situation we should be really proud of. reading some of the posts on the 28 pages of this thread, i wonder why people enjoy picking something apart that other established cycling nations basically envy.

We are a strong cycling nation now my only fear is that we are strong in a traditionally British manner. That is to say we can produce great workhorses like we do in football (the diesels and TT'ers) and we might have the odd Rooney (Cav) but we don't produce many Nibs, Gilberts, Sagans or Boonens. I am extremely proud of where we are at but I worry that the British approach of marginal gains can be easily copied by nations that seem to produce so much more natural talent in the first place.

mfin

Gladiator wrote:

I know it inside out, i run a team.

But you did write about Cav "The fastest man? For sure but he needs a perfect lead out in order to acieve it." ...and whilst a great amount of his wins have come from such scenarios, he's proved he doesn't 'need' it with wins where he hasn't had it, so the comment about him needing a perfect lead out is not entirely true, you've got to admit that.

jim453

Gladiator wrote:

jim453 wrote:

Gladiator wrote:

Ive been saying it for years, Cavendish is overated. I dont dislike the guy and hes a good cyclist obviously, but i think hes bigged up way more than he should be. The fastest man? For sure but he needs a perfect lead out in order to acieve it.

Today was rubbish, its no good him moaning about other teams, why should they help Team GB? And if he doesnt like it, then go out and do it yourself instead of sitting behind team mates. They saw the break and should have reacted, they should have gone with them, it was a huge break, not 3 or 4 riders that the peloton could have caught.

Fact is, Cavendish just cant climb, and if he was that great Dave Brailsford would be falling over himself to keep him at Team Sky but the fact hes said he can go if he wants tells you everything. You wouldnt hear Jose Mourinho saying that about Ronaldo.

You don't really understand team-road racing do you.

I know it inside out, i run a team. What i do know is that people get blinded by the media, and dont have the balls to admit when something isnt as good as it cracked up to be. A voice on a forum doesnt make you an expert, real life does, try it sometime. Unless youre all show and no go?

Are you aware how ridiculous it is to have written that in your rant - 'voiced' on an internet forum.

But, yes, on reflection I expect you're right. What with you running a team and being an expert and everything.

mfin

jim453 wrote:

Gladiator wrote:

jim453 wrote:

Gladiator wrote:

Ive been saying it for years, Cavendish is overated. I dont dislike the guy and hes a good cyclist obviously, but i think hes bigged up way more than he should be. The fastest man? For sure but he needs a perfect lead out in order to acieve it.

Today was rubbish, its no good him moaning about other teams, why should they help Team GB? And if he doesnt like it, then go out and do it yourself instead of sitting behind team mates. They saw the break and should have reacted, they should have gone with them, it was a huge break, not 3 or 4 riders that the peloton could have caught.

Fact is, Cavendish just cant climb, and if he was that great Dave Brailsford would be falling over himself to keep him at Team Sky but the fact hes said he can go if he wants tells you everything. You wouldnt hear Jose Mourinho saying that about Ronaldo.

You don't really understand team-road racing do you.

I know it inside out, i run a team. What i do know is that people get blinded by the media, and dont have the balls to admit when something isnt as good as it cracked up to be. A voice on a forum doesnt make you an expert, real life does, try it sometime. Unless youre all show and no go?

Are you aware how ridiculous it is to have written that in your rant - 'voiced' on an internet forum.

But, yes, on reflection I expect you're right. What with you running a team and being an expert and everything.

Might be a netball team. No, seriously... is it a successful team?? (actually, scrap that, what does it matter). One thing I do know is any manager that would consider a strategy where an obvious sprinter uses his own energy to chase down a break wouldn't be getting the best out of what they have. They'd be daft. ...and let's face it, Cav is just a very very good sprinter.

RichN95.

mfin wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

All these riders have been riding with radios their whole career. They're not going to suddenly develop a different tactical outlook just because there is no radio.

That's basically what I said too.

But, ...if radios were banned fully then racing would not stay conservative in the long term, it would re-adjust, years ago it was not conservative.

What it does show is what can happen if radios aren't used on the odd race in amongst a calendar of races where radios are.

No, the tactics will remain more or less the same. The strengths and weakness of the top riders will remain exactly the same. However, with less information as to what is actually happening on the road, they stick to their initial plan for longer. And the initial plans are going to be conservative.

avoidingmyphd

Gladiator wrote:

Ive been saying it for years, Cavendish is overated. I dont dislike the guy and hes a good cyclist obviously, but i think hes bigged up way more than he should be. The fastest man? For sure but he needs a perfect lead out in order to acieve it.

Today was rubbish, its no good him moaning about other teams, why should they help Team GB? And if he doesnt like it, then go out and do it yourself instead of sitting behind team mates. They saw the break and should have reacted, they should have gone with them, it was a huge break, not 3 or 4 riders that the peloton could have caught.

Fact is, Cavendish just cant climb, and if he was that great Dave Brailsford would be falling over himself to keep him at Team Sky but the fact hes said he can go if he wants tells you everything. You wouldnt hear Jose Mourinho saying that about Ronaldo.

And during the years that you've been saying that, he has become world road race champion, established an unbeaten record on the Champs-Élysées, moved to 4th on the all time tour de france stage wins list, won a monument and won stages in the giro and the vuelta.

frenchfighter

Vino's comments on cyclingnews are worth reading.

If anyone has a pic of Fabu's bike pls post. Or any of him. Amazing kit/bike. It was the same shoulder as in Flanders.

No_Ta_Doctor

avoidingmyphd wrote:

Gladiator wrote:

Ive been saying it for years, Cavendish is overated. I dont dislike the guy and hes a good cyclist obviously, but i think hes bigged up way more than he should be. The fastest man? For sure but he needs a perfect lead out in order to acieve it.

Today was rubbish, its no good him moaning about other teams, why should they help Team GB? And if he doesnt like it, then go out and do it yourself instead of sitting behind team mates. They saw the break and should have reacted, they should have gone with them, it was a huge break, not 3 or 4 riders that the peloton could have caught.

Fact is, Cavendish just cant climb, and if he was that great Dave Brailsford would be falling over himself to keep him at Team Sky but the fact hes said he can go if he wants tells you everything. You wouldnt hear Jose Mourinho saying that about Ronaldo.

And during the years that you've been saying that, he has become world road race champion, established an unbeaten record on the Champs-Élysées, moved to 4th on the all time tour de france stage wins list, won a monument and won stages in the giro and the vuelta.

Yeah, but he runs a team you know.

PS - you forgot green jersey in Tour and and Vuelta

Vino'sGhost

kanto wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

kanto wrote:

Amazing race, and this had more entertainment and value than the whole 3 weeks of the TDF combined. One day races are always more interesting than the tour, and this didn't disappoint.

Agreed. I think its the all or nothing nature of it.

AVE GOLDEN CALVES

Vino has always been great value, and has great variety. Winning on flat one day races, hilly one dayers, and a really great GT rider too. Excellent career from one of the most exciting riders we will see for many years. There aren't many riders like Vino anymore.

RoadMeridaBen

cornoyemade wrote:

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympi ... z21wT1A1Nv

But we did everything. We can't make EXCUSES (emphasis added). We did everything we said we were going to do and more.” (except win! ha ha)

WELL, I SEE A FEW EXCUSES CROPPING UP . . .

'It seems like most teams are happy not to win as long as we don't win' (hmm, care to name those teams?)

'No-one wants to help us.’ (waa…. It’s the olympics stupid, not the Cavendish games)

“there's (only) three guys riding.” (yes, you were half wheeling)

“The Australians sit there” (I seem to remember that they had a man in the break)

You come across as a right tit lol

“The four guys who ran all day couldn't do it” (and the fifth man on your team, what was he doing?)

"The Germans came a bit too late”(different jerseys, different tactics wanker).

“The other teams seemed to be more content that they wouldn't win as long as we didn't win.” (yeah, they just showed up for the fun of it)

“We expected teams to come and chase at the end with us.” (again, this is not the Cavendish games, its called the olympics. And why would the teams who had men in the break bother? Thank god this wanker lost)


Bravo Vino!

Your quoting Cav from something he said right after the race when he is bound to be frustrated as it was one of his big goals of the season and something he wont get another shot at for 4 year (depending on the profile of the course) The GB team rode themselves into the ground and as a show of teamwork it was impressive.

The only "wanker" is you im afraid, you come across as very bitter for some reason

jim453

avoidingmyphd wrote:

Gladiator wrote:

Ive been saying it for years, Cavendish is overated. I dont dislike the guy and hes a good cyclist obviously, but i think hes bigged up way more than he should be. The fastest man? For sure but he needs a perfect lead out in order to acieve it.

Today was rubbish, its no good him moaning about other teams, why should they help Team GB? And if he doesnt like it, then go out and do it yourself instead of sitting behind team mates. They saw the break and should have reacted, they should have gone with them, it was a huge break, not 3 or 4 riders that the peloton could have caught.

Fact is, Cavendish just cant climb, and if he was that great Dave Brailsford would be falling over himself to keep him at Team Sky but the fact hes said he can go if he wants tells you everything. You wouldnt hear Jose Mourinho saying that about Ronaldo.

And during the years that you've been saying that, he has become world road race champion, established an unbeaten record on the Champs-Élysées, moved to 4th on the all time tour de france stage wins list, won a monument and won stages in the giro and the vuelta.

Yes, good points, one does wonder what he may have achieved had he lived up to all the hype.

Sometimes we just need things pointing out by an expert who runs a team.

Vino'sGhost

nevman wrote:

And another thing-boy am I cross tonight,if there had been a normal stage race we could have had proper helicopter coverage without the tree cover,and seen the break better.No doubt Box Hill was a good idea (9x FFS) but didnt LOCOG or whoever realise it was a bit `different` and therefore likely to produce an odd outcome?

This along with your other outpourings makes me believe you havent got a clue.

AVE GOLDEN CALVES

Vino'sGhost

iainf72 wrote:

Only 1 rider of the top 5 did the Tour.

4 out of the top 10

i don't get the point there Ian, surely you know there is more to cycling than the Tour. This was a great "classic" style race.

AVE GOLDEN CALVES

knedlicky

mfin wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

knedlicky wrote:

As I mentioned in another thread, two of Cyrille Guimard’s suggestions how to improve the Tour de France (with which I agree but I'm not Prud'homme) were to reduce team size to 7 riders and to eliminate radios. I think today validated Guimard's suggestions.

It's not that simple. You also have to acknowledge that the different sized teams make an impact too. For example, if Sagan had had a few team mates (like the Velits bros) they probably would have chased. Kazakhstan and Colombia would have played their cards differently with five riders instead of two. Imagine if Sky and Liquigas were allowed nine riders at the Tour, but FdJ and Europcar only got three.

I agree, people seem to be applying logic that might work in a GTour but when it comes to these smaller teams and the way they are created then its a different ball game really.
I don't think today's race show's anything on how a GT could be 'improved'.

I’m not questioning the different-sized teams today (although intrinsically I also find that unfair), rather I’m thinking Guimard’s suggestion for GTs has merit in that it makes it harder for any one team to control a GT.
Team size at the TdF has never been fixed and (you should be able to agree that) today’s GB team size made it harder for them than the Sky TdF team. Maybe you find it therefore disappointing today, but do you want the Indurain/Armstrong years repeated?I

If you go back in time, you find teams in the TdF weren’t even equal in numbers (which probably some years helped explained who won) - some teams had 12 riders, others only 6 riders; a bit like the Olympic RR today in variation in team sizes.
In different years in the 1960s and 1970s, teams were 12-rider or 11-rider strong, then came 10-rider teams. A reduction to 9-riders only came in the late 1980s, as more teams were allowed to take part.

knedlicky

mfin wrote:

Its more difficult for this generation to adjust, cos radios is all they know, and that's how the tactics are dictated to them. ....but, radios are here to stay, so I suppose the whole thing is a mute point.

Riders don't have radios at amateur level and they have to pass through that to get a professional contract, so it's not all they know. I'm not even sure the likes of Endura professional JTL in the Tour d'Alsace is allowed a radio in that or similar category races; I think not, but he does okay without.
Do riders become brainless when they sign for Pro-Tour teams, never take any notice of what's happening in a race except through their earphones?? Footballers don’t wear radios, nor marathon or triathlon competitors (and they are not all individuals, there are team events), so what’s so lacking in professional cyclists?

mfin

Yeah, Im aware of the team size differences. Just that a race like today's which is national teams being made from riders on different pro teams when you watch the racing, its not much that people can pull conclusions on how racing should/could be, cos its also an olympic race, different priorities involved.

I didn't find today disappointing though, more just predictable really in a lot of ways. The only REAL disappointment for me is to see a doper win. If only he'd come out and referenced this afterwards to put a little sticky plaster on robbing a once in 4 year possibility from so so many more deserved winners.

mfin

knedlicky wrote:

mfin wrote:

Its more difficult for this generation to adjust, cos radios is all they know, and that's how the tactics are dictated to them. ....but, radios are here to stay, so I suppose the whole thing is a mute point.

Riders don't have radios at amateur level and they have to pass through that to get a professional contract, so it's not all they know. I'm not even sure the likes of Endura professional JTL in the Tour d'Alsace is allowed a radio in that or similar category races; I think not, but he does okay without.
Do riders become brainless when they sign for Pro-Tour teams, never take any notice of what's happening in a race except through their earphones?? Footballers don’t wear radios, nor marathon or triathlon competitors (and they are not all individuals, there are team events), so what’s so lacking in professional cyclists?

Okay, perhaps Ive worded it a bit wrong... from when they go pro its pretty much all they know. So they race all year with radios, then get a race like today's and it is entirely different for that one day than having a DS yabbering in your ear all day or whatever, that's all.

Lets take GB for instance, they would have raced differently if Sutton/Brailsford and co were adapting tactics over the radio today?? Most likely. (unless the car had the same pictures and info we did, in which case they wouldn't have known much detail ).

It also appears if we want to know about cycling that Tanni Grey-Thompson is the new trusted pundit :shock:

(My earlier points were if a day like this wasn't a 'one off' but the 'norm', everything would adjust, and the amateur experience etc and nouse would start to come back into play).

tailwindhome

alihisgreat

TailWindHome wrote:

Oh dear... someone needs to introduce them to Google (and 'palmarés')