Wiggins 2012 performance

mfin

And as a quick set of answers to your underlines

Point 1. I don't see it as dominance like you do, dominant but not so extreme as to make is suspicious. Froome has always been a good TTer, and has suffered illness. Wiggins is on-form, but not blowing the field apart all the time.

Point 2. No, I don't think Sky blew things apart today, Nibs, Cadel etc were still there at that pace.

Point 3. I'll stick to, cos Postal often not only wore the other teams down but then launched LA once that job was done and sent him screaming up the road, this I have yet to see with Sky, thats all.

..plus, remember, I have said a few times if there's something really suspect OR if they turn out to have evidence against them then I'll be the first to condemn them, but this is all under 6 watts per kg stuff at the moment apparently, and most experts agree that this power over these efforts is nothing very odd.

Yellow Peril

mfin wrote:

And as a quick set of answers to your underlines

Point 1. I don't see it as dominance like you do, dominant but not so extreme as to make is suspicious. Froome has always been a good TTer, and has suffered illness. Wiggins is on-form, but not blowing the field apart all the time.

Point 2. No, I don't think Sky blew things apart today, Nibs, Cadel etc were still there at that pace.

Point 3. I'll stick to, cos Postal often not only wore the other teams down but then launched LA once that job was done and sent him screaming up the road, this I have yet to see with Sky, thats all.

..plus, remember, I have said a few times if there's something really suspect OR if they turn out to have evidence against them then I'll be the first to condemn them, but this is all under 6 watts per kg stuff at the moment apparently, and most experts agree that this power over these efforts is nothing very odd.

I agree with this. Sky are a very disciplined team using a well practised tactic. they don't blow races apart like DiscoPost used to and quite often in other races this year such as Romandie/Paris-Nice other riders have pinged off the front and been first over the climbs despite the high climbing tempo tactic of Sky.

Ask yourself this, Why isn't Big George doing the job of work for Cadel that he used to do for Lance? remember when he was heir apparent at DiscoPost? Don't tell me its age Bigger Jens Voigt did ok yesterday

markwb79

I dont think that Wiggins has been dominating in the slightest. Team Sky have been dominating, its just set up so Wiggins is in the lead. Same as all the races he has won recently. All based on his TT and hanging on during the mountain stages.

If there is any conspiracy, I would think it happened a year ago when the course was designed to be suited to a TT specialist.

ddraver

Sky have been "Dominating" the Tour in the same way Liquigas "dominated" the Giro. Unfortuantly the Sky GC guy is not Basso and so doesnt collapse in beautiful, but yet worthless, italian Style...

A - With the exceptoin of the Belle Filles (and do I really need to point out the differences between that and a mountain again?) Sky have nt controlled anything very much yet...Riding tempo up a climb is fine (that's what tempo is) - riding it so fast that no one else can attack, no matter how deep they go is dodgy. I loved it yesterday when Harmon was giving it the "oooh this is causing loads of damage today" and then the camera zoomed in on that noted climber Andre Greipel!

B - there are several climbers who have been notable by their abscence/inactivity thus far. When EBH is out climbing Vandenderts then call me....But the last time Van and Jelle had a dig they dropped the whole sky train like a sack of sh1t. Funnily enough I didn t see a lot of #PostBelge that day...

SBezza

Not so sure Sky did do anything special in closing down Nibali yesterday, Nibbs himself has said once he dropped Sagan he sat up, so wasn't closed down whilst he was going for it 100%.

As for the pace, it wasn't amazingly high that VDB couldn't clip off the front towards the end. Sky haven't really been attacked as yet by any of the GC contenders with the exception of Nibali yesterday on a downhill, so what they have done is just solid teamwork. I am sure if Liquigas and BMC had the right riders they would be doing similar. I have been more surprised at the weakness of some of the teams more than the dominance of Sky.

ddraver

Listening to a Wiggo interview on ITV podcast, he says that they let him go on the first climb knowing he would be alone on the second and so easier to reel in...

plectrum

Nibali although a very good rider isn't yet a world leading cyclist, if Contador and Schleck were riding then we wouldn't really even be talking of him getting in the top 5.

samiam

I cannot believe the doping nonsense flying around about the Sky team right now. If you hadn't watched the stages and just read internet forums, you'd think that Wiggins and Froom had both dropped the entire peloton while riding up a HC climb unclipped whilst high fiving spectators.

All they have done (so far) is wheel suck and win a TT 10 days into the tour. How on earth is that being compared with 7 years of questionable Tour domination each of which contained loads of super human efforts.

I have never seen such hysteria.

Calder

Yellow Peril wrote:

I agree with this. Sky are a very disciplined team using a well practised tactic. they don't blow races apart like DiscoPost used to and quite often in other races this year such as Romandie/Paris-Nice other riders have pinged off the front and been first over the climbs despite the high climbing tempo tactic of Sky.

Ask yourself this, Why isn't Big George doing the job of work for Cadel that he used to do for Lance? remember when he was heir apparent at DiscoPost? Don't tell me its age Bigger Jens Voigt did ok yesterday

One man ageing well does not mean all men age well.

But yes, they appear very well drilled. For example up the Belles Filles they just team time trialled up it. If Nibali and Cadel weren't still there(ish) at the end, folk might be able to convince me it's suspicious. But for now I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

PBo

ddraver wrote:

But the last time Van and Jelle had a dig they dropped the whole sky train like a sack of sh1t. Funnily enough I didn t see a lot of #PotBelge that day...

ftfy

RichN95.

samiam wrote:

I have never seen such hysteria.

The Armstrong saga is finally coming to a close and various people who have talked of little else for years are panicing at the thought. So they're trying to create a replacement and Sky is who they've chosen (they speak English and have fans willing to defend them - essential ingredients). Witness the weak comparisons to Armstrong at every opportunity.

They're Armstrong addicts. They're like smokers who have to quit. Sky is their Nicorette Inhaler - it's clearly not the same thing, but it'll get them through the bad times.

iainf72

Wiggins blocked Shane Stokes on twitter post the Kimmage article.

That my friends is sheer stupidity.

rick_chasey

iainf72 wrote:

Wiggins blocked Shane Stokes on twitter post the Kimmage article.

That my friends is sheer stupidity.

He blocked the innrng earlier on in the week.

ddraver

Quick Q - How do you know if you ve been blocked?

tailwindhome

Rick Chasey wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Wiggins blocked Shane Stokes on twitter post the Kimmage article.

That my friends is sheer stupidity.

He blocked the innrng earlier on in the week.

Sports people should stay off twitter/facebook.

It never ends well

Squaggles

SBezza wrote:

Not so sure Sky did do anything special in closing down Nibali yesterday, Nibbs himself has said once he dropped Sagan he sat up, so wasn't closed down whilst he was going for it 100%.

As for the pace, it wasn't amazingly high that VDB couldn't clip off the front towards the end. Sky haven't really been attacked as yet by any of the GC contenders with the exception of Nibali yesterday on a downhill, so what they have done is just solid teamwork. I am sure if Liquigas and BMC had the right riders they would be doing similar. I have been more surprised at the weakness of some of the teams more than the dominance of Sky.

Stop talking sense man , I'm glad somebody has watched the same race as me

Pross

Rundfahrt wrote:

.......Just more of the defense of LA/Postal back in their day. That's the great thing about the guys who are arguing with me so vociferously, you guys are doing so in the exact manner the LA/Postal defenders did back then and guys like you relished ripping on them (and yes I know who you and your dd buddy are and which forums you used to post on. But no I am not the poster you think I am!).

I think I will bid you adieu on this topic as it's clear that you are dead set on saying anything you have to say to keep pushing your opinion as the only right one. Feel free to keep going if you must, but you really could learn a thing or two from Jez about discussing topics with someone you don't agree with.

You claim to want reasonable debate but you back away when someone gives it. mfin has suggested looking at the power data and making comparisons so why not go away and do that - if Sky are pumping out the same wattages as the USPS boys were come back with the relevant links and I will happily admit that it is suspicious. Everything I have read so far on the matter suggests that the w/kg that Froome and Wiggins have been producing have been within the accepted bounds of physiology whereas those of LA were not. It would appear you could also learn from Jez about discussing things with those who disagree with you. What exactly is it that is causing so much suspicion? Is it just that Sky have a few riders left at the front on mountain stages? Riders who would probably be the GC contender in many other teams? I've said it elsewhere but the break actually gained time on yesterday's big climb whilst EBH was on the front. VDB managed a couple a minor attacks going uphill and eventually rode away with Rolland, Nibs stayed away solo for a good few kms and eventually eased up whilst the Wiggins group contained a load of mediocre GC riders. Froome's TT is about the only example of something perhaps out of the ordinary but he showed promise in the TT right back in his initial Tour as a 23 year old. On the balance of probabilities I would say that his results in the interim years were adversely affected by illness and he has shown good TT form for the last 2 seasons. Wiggins has always been one of the best TT riders and his 'dominance' has been skewed by a slightly below par performance by Canc (in relation to all riders, not just Wiggins) and Martin's injury - they are the only 2 riders who have consistently beaten Wiggins in the last few years. The only resembalance to USPS appears to be in Sky having a team that can put a few riders on the front in the mountains and even that ends when you look at how hard they are riding in comparison.

rick_chasey

http://www.bikebiz.com/news/read/could- ... uit/013342

The press are really bored with the GC race.

calvjones

If this were any other sport I'd probably agree with all of Pross' analysis there.

RichN95.

calvjones wrote:

If this were any other sport I'd probably agree with all of Pross' analysis there.

In any other sport people would point out that, in general, the teams with the most money get the best players and therefore the best results.

ddraver

@Pross - let's nopt forget that "Team Sky" have been in the business of Time Trials for nearly 20 years now, going back to Boardman's hour record! They know how to make a rider into a TTer! Ok so they ve diversified into straight TT's rather than ones in tight circles but it's not significantly different!

Calder

ddraver wrote:

@Pross - let's nopt forget that "Team Sky" have been in the business of Time Trials for nearly 20 years now, going back to Boardman's hour record! They know how to make a rider into a TTer! Ok so they ve diversified into straight TT's rather than ones in tight circles but it's not significantly different!

Exactly, a guy who used to be ill/injured a lot at also-ran teams then goes to team with bundles of TT experience, sports science expertise and exceptional training facilities. Hardly a surprise his performances have improved.

Okay, so he faired exceptionally well the other day, but maybe Cancellara had an off day or is out of form and the course didn't suit, while Froome is right on his game and did like the course. Bang - big result.

So many factors. I suppose it's easier to point and say doping than engage brain and think about it.........

Pross

ddraver wrote:

@Pross - let's nopt forget that "Team Sky" have been in the business of Time Trials for nearly 20 years now, going back to Boardman's hour record! They know how to make a rider into a TTer! Ok so they ve diversified into straight TT's rather than ones in tight circles but it's not significantly different!

I was also going to add that British cyclists are also raised on a diet of 10 mile and 25 mile time trials which is basically what this was (albeit on a sporting course with no traffic). It was actually a slow 25, they wouldn't have got near the top 10 on the R25/3 with those times (must be all those doping amateur club testers)

Calder

Pross wrote:

I was also going to add that British cyclists are also raised on a diet of 10 mile and 25 mile time trials which is basically what this was (albeit on a sporting course with no traffic). It was actually a slow 25, they wouldn't have got near the top 10 on the R25/3 with those times (must be all those doping amateur club testers)

They should force feed fat people with a diet like that - it'd sort them out for sure. None of this costly liposuction and stomach surgery nonsense..........

STMS

Is it just me or were most of the old guard struggling even the "climbers" today. As for Wiggins he certainly was no match for Froome when he came back to the front. The winner might finish second this year(Team orders)

Daz555

STMS wrote:

Is it just me or were most of the old guard struggling even the "climbers" today. As for Wiggins he certainly was no match for Froome when he came back to the front. The winner might finish second this year(Team orders)

Not sure about that. I reckon Wiggo would have dragged Froome back again by the summit - in Wiggins' typical steady style. Wiggins does not have the punch in his legs to match the immediate break.

Wiggins will also likely take a minute out of Froome in the final TT.

Rundfahrt

Pross wrote:

Rundfahrt wrote:

.......Just more of the defense of LA/Postal back in their day. That's the great thing about the guys who are arguing with me so vociferously, you guys are doing so in the exact manner the LA/Postal defenders did back then and guys like you relished ripping on them (and yes I know who you and your dd buddy are and which forums you used to post on. But no I am not the poster you think I am!).

I think I will bid you adieu on this topic as it's clear that you are dead set on saying anything you have to say to keep pushing your opinion as the only right one. Feel free to keep going if you must, but you really could learn a thing or two from Jez about discussing topics with someone you don't agree with.

You claim to want reasonable debate but you back away when someone gives it. mfin has suggested looking at the power data and making comparisons so why not go away and do that - if Sky are pumping out the same wattages as the USPS boys were come back with the relevant links and I will happily admit that it is suspicious. Everything I have read so far on the matter suggests that the w/kg that Froome and Wiggins have been producing have been within the accepted bounds of physiology whereas those of LA were not. It would appear you could also learn from Jez about discussing things with those who disagree with you. What exactly is it that is causing so much suspicion? Is it just that Sky have a few riders left at the front on mountain stages? Riders who would probably be the GC contender in many other teams? I've said it elsewhere but the break actually gained time on yesterday's big climb whilst EBH was on the front. VDB managed a couple a minor attacks going uphill and eventually rode away with Rolland, Nibs stayed away solo for a good few kms and eventually eased up whilst the Wiggins group contained a load of mediocre GC riders. Froome's TT is about the only example of something perhaps out of the ordinary but he showed promise in the TT right back in his initial Tour as a 23 year old. On the balance of probabilities I would say that his results in the interim years were adversely affected by illness and he has shown good TT form for the last 2 seasons. Wiggins has always been one of the best TT riders and his 'dominance' has been skewed by a slightly below par performance by Canc (in relation to all riders, not just Wiggins) and Martin's injury - they are the only 2 riders who have consistently beaten Wiggins in the last few years. The only resembalance to USPS appears to be in Sky having a team that can put a few riders on the front in the mountains and even that ends when you look at how hard they are riding in comparison.

No, Mfin decided to demand something else when I met his original demand.

I stopped reading when I got to the part where you asked what is causing suspicion as I, and many others all over the web(not talking about the loons at CN) including cycling insiders and journalists, have answered that question quite thoroughly.

Keep using the LA/Postal answers to defend your beloved Sky boys...it's great humour

RichN95.

STMS wrote:

Is it just me or were most of the old guard struggling even the "climbers" today. As for Wiggins he certainly was no match for Froome when he came back to the front. The winner might finish second this year(Team orders)

I don't know. Froome was still 2 minutes down on Wiggins and Wiggins remains the best time-triallist, so I'm not sure how viable a coup d'etat would be.

Now if Froome hadn't lost 1.25 with a puncture early on - that would be more interesting.

Either way, I expect Spaghetti Man Mr Nibbles try his divide and conquer gambit in the press again.

jibberjim

Daz555 wrote:

Not sure about that. I reckon Wiggo would have dragged Froome back again by the summit - in Wiggins' typical steady style. Wiggins does not have the punch in his legs to match the immediate break.

Or if the "GO" "SLOW" confusion was genuine then he wouldn't even have tried, knowing that Froome was going to come straight back anyway. Seems likely you'd've thought he would at least have matched Nibali's weak response if he wanted to, he wasn't on the limit and does have some change of pace, as you can see as he's followed everyone of Evans's moves at the end of stages.

Daz555

jibberjim wrote:

Daz555 wrote:

Not sure about that. I reckon Wiggo would have dragged Froome back again by the summit - in Wiggins' typical steady style. Wiggins does not have the punch in his legs to match the immediate break.

Or if the "GO" "SLOW" confusion was genuine then he wouldn't even have tried, knowing that Froome was going to come straight back anyway. Seems likely you'd've thought he would at least have matched Nibali's weak response if he wanted to, he wasn't on the limit and does have some change of pace, as you can see as he's followed everyone of Evans's moves at the end of stages.

I meant in a hypothetical scenario where Froome and Wiggins were genuinely racing at the point when Froome seemed to go.

I think there is nothing in it. Simply coincided with the moment when Wiggins eased.