Wiggins 2012 performance

Rundfahrt

pb21 wrote:

I get the feeling runfhart is being deliberately antagonistic and if everyone were calling Wiggins a cheat he would be saying where is the evidence!

Nope, I am just being honest. I apologize to anyone offended by my honest opinion. The one that has few detractors in non-British forums of various kinds that have a thread about cycling.

oldwelshman

Tour de France 2012: Bradley Wiggins says he would 'stand to lose everything' if he doped
Tour de France leader Bradley Wiggins has again defended himself against insinuations about doping by claiming he would rather stack shelves in Tesco than be a successful cyclist because of drugs.

Outspoken: Bradley Wiggins has reiterated his anti-doping stance after facing repeated questioning at the Tour Photo: GETTY IMAGES By Telegraph Sport

2:40PM BST 13 Jul 2012
8 Comments
Team Sky leader Wiggins, 32, faced questions about doping from the world's media on Sundaty following his first day in the maillot jaune, the leader;s yellow jersey, which were met with a volley of expletives from the stright-talking Londoner.

Following five days in the most iconic jersey in cycling Wiggins has said that if he were to dope he would lose everything.

"If I doped I would potentially stand to lose everything. It's a long list. My reputation, my livelihood, my marriage, my family, my house," said Wiggins.

"Everything I have achieved, my Olympic medals, my world titles, the CBE I was given. I would have to take my children to the school gates in a small Lancashire village with everyone looking at me, knowing I had cheated, knowing I had, perhaps, won the Tour de France, but then been caught."

The Londoner added that he understood, though, why the questions were asked though stopped short of apologising for his outburst. "I understand why I get asked those questions given the recent history of the sport but it still annoys me. It's hard to know what to say, half an hour after finishing one of the hardest races you've ridden, when you're knackered.

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"The question that needs to be asked is not why wouldn't I take drugs, but why would I? I know exactly why I wouldn't dope. To start with, I come to professional road racing from a different background to a lot of guys. There is a different culture in British cycling. Britain is a country where doping is not morally acceptable.

"I was born in Belgium but I grew up in the British environment, with the Olympic side of the sport as well as the Tour de France. I don't care what people say, the attitude to doping in the UK is different to in Italy or France maybe, where a rider like Richard Virenque can dope, be caught, be banned, come back and be a national hero.," Wiggins wrote in his column or the Guardian.

"If I doped I would potentially stand to lose everything. It's a long list. My reputation, my livelihood, my marriage, my family, my house. Everything I have achieved, my Olympic medals, my world titles, the CBE I was given. I would have to take my children to the school gates in a small Lancashire village with everyone looking at me, knowing I had cheated, knowing I had, perhaps, won the Tour de France, but then been caught. I remember in 2007 throwing that Cofidis kit in the bin at that small airport, where no one knew me, because I didn't want any chance of being associated with doping. Then I imagine how it would be in a tiny community where everyone knows everyone.

"It's not just about me. I've always lived in the UK. All my friends in cycling are here, and my extended family. Cycling isn't just about me and the Tour de France. My wife organises races in Lancashire. I have my own sportif, with people coming and paying £40 each to ride. If all that was built on sand, if I was deceiving all those people, I would have to live with the knowledge it could all disappear just like that.

"My father-in-law works at British Cycling and would never be able to show his face there again. Their family have been in cycling for 50 years, and I would bring shame and embarrassment on them. It's not just about me: if I doped it would jeopardise Sky – who sponsor the entire sport in the UK – Dave Brailsford and all he has done, and Tim Kerrison, my trainer. I would not want to end up sitting in a room with all that hanging on me, thinking: 'S***, I don't want anyone to find out.'

"That is not something I wish to live with. Doping would simply be not worth it. This is only sport we are talking about. Sport does not mean more to me than all those other things I have. Winning the Tour de France at any cost is not worth the possibility of losing all that.

"I am not willing to risk all those things I've got in my life. I do it because I love it. I don't do it for a power trip: at the end of the day, I'm a shy bloke looking forward to taking my son to summer rugby camp after the Tour, where he could maybe bump into his hero, Sam Tomkins. That's what's keeping me going here.

"What I love is doing my best and working hard. If I felt I had to take drugs, I would rather stop tomorrow, go and ride club 10-mile time trials, ride to the cafe on Sundays, and work in Tesco stacking shelves."

cookiemonster

Rundfahrt wrote:

I do appreciate the two of you not being assholes and turning this into a personal thing...unlike others.

This is one of the most ironically funny statements that I've ever seen! fantastic

jim453

Rundfahrt wrote:

Pbo, it looks like you are seeing what you want to see. That's fine, you and Stanley can do that and I'll just say I agree to disagree.

I do appreciate the two of you not being assholes and turning this into a personal thing...unlike others.

Out of interest Rundy, what would it take to satisfy you that Sky (and Wiggo) were not engaged in any kind of nefarious or unsrcrupulous activity?

ocdupalais

"I know I am but what are you?...I know I am but what are you?...I know I am but what are you?...Adieu...adieu...adieu..."

le_patron

I like that Wiggins Guardian article. Glad he's able to articulate himself in a way other than in an interview 20 mins after a TdF stage finish, and hasn't mentioned passing tests as a defence.

TheYorkshireMan

oldwelshman wrote:

Tour de France 2012: Bradley Wiggins says he would 'stand to lose everything' if he doped

Surely, he means that he would 'stand to lose everything' if he was caught doping'?

Of course, much the same could be said of most every rider who has ever doped. And the reason riders run the risk is because there is also everything to be gained from doping if you can get away with it.

There is a lot of other nonsense in there as well. For example 'Britain is a country where doping is not morally acceptable. I don't care what people say, the attitude to doping in the UK is different to in Italy or France maybe'. I guess that is why doping is rife in sports like rugby in the UK with the organising bodies all but turning a blind eye and the police showing no interest, whilst in France doping is a criminal offence and the police seem keen to nick anyone they can. Has Wiggins never heard of Tom Simpson, David Millar or Linford Christie - that well-known national hero and doper?

Wiggins also claims that 'a rider like Richard Virenque can dope, be caught, be banned, come back and be a national hero'. Is this the same Virenque that Jean-Marie Leblanc tried to ban from the race against the wishes of the UCI; who was voted the second least admirable person in France after Jean-Marine Le Pen, the far-right politician, and who is something of a national joke, being mercilessly lampooned on satirical programmes such as Les Guignols de l'info?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMaa9Ui8JS4

DeadCalm

TheYorkshireMan wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

Tour de France 2012: Bradley Wiggins says he would 'stand to lose everything' if he doped

Surely, he means that he would 'stand to lose everything' if he was caught doping'?

Of course, much the same could be said of most every rider who has ever doped. And the reason riders run the risk is because there is also everything to be gained from doping if you can get away with it.

There is a lot of other nonsense in there as well. For example 'Britain is a country where doping is not morally acceptable. I don't care what people say, the attitude to doping in the UK is different to in Italy or France maybe'. I guess that is why doping is rife in sports like rugby in the UK with the organising bodies all but turning a blind eye and the police showing no interest, whilst in France doping is a criminal offence and the police seem keen to nick anyone they can. Has Wiggins never heard of Tom Simpson, David Millar or Linford Christie - that well-known national hero and doper?

Wiggins also claims that 'a rider like Richard Virenque can dope, be caught, be banned, come back and be a national hero'. Is this the same Virenque that Jean-Marie Leblanc tried to ban from the race against the wishes of the UCI; who was voted the second least admirable person in France after Jean-Marine Le Pen, the far-right politician, and who is something of a national joke, being mercilessly lampooned on satirical programmes such as Les Guignols de l'info?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMaa9Ui8JS4

Welcome back Bernie.

TheYorkshireMan

DeadCalm wrote:

Welcome back Bernie.

I think he is long gone...

Anyhow, I wonder why Wiggins did not say something like 'I don't care what people say, the attitude to doping in the UK is different to that in Italy or America maybe'. After all, Armstrong and his compatriots have been responsible for the biggest and most successful doping conspiracy ever and if it wasn't for Armstrong's doping Wiggins would have been the first British rider on the podium three years ago. In fact Wiggins is starting to sound like Pat McQuaid! Perhaps he, or his PR team, are 'playing to the gallery' and know that more people in the UK will support him if he takes has a go at 'the French', rather than his personal hero, Lance Armstrong.

I also wonder what Wiggins thinks of the survey in France that found that 90% of those interviewed agreed with the statement (in relation to the Tour) that 'Doping has destroyed everything, I feel betrayed'. I also wonder what he thinks of those UCI passport ratings that put French teams and riders firmly at the bottom of the suspicion ratings whilst his was a solid 5, 'verging on affirmative'? Perhaps what me meant to say is:

"I don't care what people say, the attitude to doping in the UK is different to in Italy or France maybe: in Britain all people care about is seeing me become the first ever British winner of the Tour so they can wave the flag and forget about all the crap they have to put up with".

ddraver

Nah you re definitely Bernie! It was just the one month ban then was it?

Turfle

See. Absolutely no point in him bothering to try.

plectrum

Rundfahrt

You are aware that all of Bradley Wiggins data on blood, power, VAM, VO2 etc is available from Sky & Training Peaks and the team is fully cooperative with WADA and UCI. This is UNLIKE US Postal or any future Armstrong teams i.e. refusing to give blood/urine, delaying inspectors etc.

About a squillion posts ago you put a link to a report on a list of riders under suspicion created by the UCI which included Sky rider Bradley Wiggins and Geraint Thomas. What you failed to also post was the link to the objection from Sky and the admission from UCI that these riders were not on the list due to any blood abnormalities rather just because their performance was irregular from previous times in their career, i.e. they emerged/brokethrough. UCI also admitted that this list wasn't create to suggest any guilt, rather to aid in deciding who to test. Subsequently Sky and these riders have had more tests and everything looks normal.

During this tour, Wiggins has performed exactly as expected, nothing of surprise. He has always been a superb TT and lo and behold performs brilliantly in these disciplines. On the climbs he has never been able to punch and serge and lo and behold he chugs it up the mountain like a diesel, unable to counter sudden surges from Nibali or Froome.

The only similarity between US Postal and Sky is that a team has been created with a sole and specific role; to be a train in the mountains. I think you totally forget or dismiss that the riders in US Postal were the finest on the planet, dope or not dope they were still the best and so it was no surprise they were dominant.

If the peleton had been clean at that time they still would have dominated in a manner that SKY are doing now in a clean peleton.

Everyone has the rights to be suspicious, I am so about Froome but until you have any actual facts whatsoever then perhaps it really is time to give the rider and his team a modicum of respect.

As for Froome, you are aware that the parasitic disease Bilharzia eats red blood and reduces red blood and so when taking treatment this should see an increase in red blood cell volumes. Hence during 2010/2011/2012 when the disease is responding to treatment and under control this would reverse Froome's semi anaemic state. If a rider had been training to top performance with a set red blood volume and then through treatment increased that red blood concentration this would lead to better aerobic conditioning.

This is very similar to the effects of EPO, which is used in anaemia (i.e. due to kidney failure or certain cancers), it may well just be that Froome is treating the Bilharzia, stopping the anaemia and seeing it positively effect his mountain performances.

As for when he has had Bilharzia; it was diagnosed in late 2010 as far as I know, treated in 2011, succesfully so prior to Vuelta, came back in early 2012 and has been successfully treated again prior to the TDF.

Rundfahrt

Let me see if I have this correct:

- Sky and Wiggins are 100% transparent.

- I don't recall posting any such link, but if you say so ok.

- You believe the UCI is 100% anti-doping and would never cover for anyone.

- Nothing Wiggins has done has been the least bit suspicious.

- You give Postal full credit for taken, when it suits your argument.

- You think the peloton is clean now.

- If everyone has the right to suspicious then I wonder why you, and others are vehement in attacking me or anyone e
Se who questions Sky or Wiggins. (Oh, the line about giving respect until you have actual facts was another used by LA/Postal fans back in their day)

- Froome came back from a pretty bad disease that hurt his blood pretty bad and included treatment that would increase red blood cells and now has become one of the best GT riders in the world right after this treatment finished, starting with a big result in the Vuelta. (hmmmm, sounds very familiar)

- Froome had to have treatments that increased his blood cell counts before the Vuelta and now before the Tour. (not days before but in a time period that would definitely be felt during these races.

Did I miss anything?

frenchfighter

His latest in the Guradian is super.

Turfle

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/07/ ... ent_229792

"LE CAP D’AGDE, France (VN) — Bradley Wiggins said he’s considering releasing his blood data in order to check skepticism surrounding his performance at this year’s Tour de France."

Rundfahrt

Turfle wrote:

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/07/news/bradley-wiggins-mulls-releasing-blood-data-to-bolster-clean-racing-argument_229792

"LE CAP D’AGDE, France (VN) — Bradley Wiggins said he’s considering releasing his blood data in order to check skepticism surrounding his performance at this year’s Tour de France."

Wait, plectrum has already told us it is all online and easy to find.


On topic, I would applaud him if he does this. He has a chance to be a leader in the fight against doping and being 100% transparent then throwing a hissy fit if someone asks you about doping.

airwise

He is a leader in the fight against doping by proving you can win without it.

The fact that you are still arguing against all the evidence of the past 15 pages suggests an insatiable troll to me.

I actually do know a former pro who, realising he wasn't going to make to 50 in the world without PEDs about a decade ago, gave it all up, went to work for the gas board, and rode to the cafe and in 10m tt's locally.

Mike Healey

I agree about their budget, it's appalling. What happened to the days of two men and a dog looking after a British based team. I want to go back to the days of the underfunded plucky Brit underdog who didn't stand a cat in hell's chance, don't you?

Rundfahrt

airwise wrote:

He is a leader in the fight against doping by proving you can win without it.

So he is a leader in the fight simply because he is winning? That's some really good logic. :roll:

The fact that you are still arguing against all the evidence of the past 15 pages suggests an insatiable troll to me.

There has been no "evidence" that is 100% convincing to alleviate suspicion. Based on thisost I would say the toll here is you...or are you just another blinkered Brit fighting for Queen,Country and Bradley?

I actually do know a former pro who, realising he wasn't going to make to 50 in the world without PEDs about a decade ago, gave it all up, went to work for the gas board, and rode to the cafe and in 10m tt's locally.

That's exciting.

symo

Rundfahrt wrote:

airwise wrote:

He is a leader in the fight against doping by proving you can win without it.

So he is a leader in the fight simply because he is winning? That's some really good logic. :roll:

The fact that you are still arguing against all the evidence of the past 15 pages suggests an insatiable troll to me.

There has been no "evidence" that is 100% convincing to alleviate suspicion. Based on thisost I would say the toll here is you...or are you just another blinkered Brit fighting for Queen,Country and Bradley?

I actually do know a former pro who, realising he wasn't going to make to 50 in the world without PEDs about a decade ago, gave it all up, went to work for the gas board, and rode to the cafe and in 10m tt's locally.

That's exciting.

Witty comebacks, or do I mean witl....

Seriously, we don't know what SKY have in the contract, Brailsford has been vocal about the aim of SKY is to produce a clean british tour winner within 5 years. That and the fairly vocal views that Wiggins and Cavendish have about doping mean that they would look pretty dumb if one of them is found out later.
Millar was pretty open about being unable to join SKY owing to his past, but he seems to be trying hard at Slipstream to ensure people are not walking a path to a darker tomorrow. (Plus read his autobiography and totally changed my opinion of him).
This isn't US postal, there are no backdated TUE's, no dealing within known dope prescribing medical professionals. Yes it isn't like the old days, when everyone attacked up sheer cliffs using a 59x11 monster gear, but then again there was way more dope back when Merckx raced and I don't hear any of you berating him being seen as the grand patron of cycling are you?

frenchfighter

"To be honest, I'm quite surprised and disappointed to have been attacked this way by Bradley Wiggins” Virenque told Cyclism'Actu. “What's the point, what is the purpose? I do not understand it.

“I do not consider myself a hero,” he said. “If I am respected and even revered by the French public and elsewhere, I can only rejoice. My career had its ups and downs, you know, and as I always said it was a blessing for me and my family. I had the chance to return after my suspension and I did it with my guts. I think I ended my career on a few performances, and I think it was not so bad.”

Virenque was famous for his flamboyant style - much as Europcar’s Thomas Voeckler is now - which many criticised him for, as they felt that the energy wasted was one of the reasons for his failure to win the Tour. This flamboyance though, was what endeared him to so much of the French public, and he feels that Wiggins could take a lesson from this.

“If Wiggins wants to be adored by the French public, I would advise him to be more aggressive, like a Thomas Voeckler, a Sylvain Chavanel, a Thibaut Pinot or a Pierre Rolland knows how to do,” he said. “And also to speak more French so the public can appreciate him.

“Yes, I am surprised and somewhat disappointed by such remarks but…”

Cyclism'Actu columnist Cyrille Guimard - who guided Bernard Hinault, Laurent Fignon and Lucien Van Impe to Tour glory - is also apparently confused by Wiggins’ choice of words, comparing the relative standing of cycling as a sport in the two countries.

"Wiggins says what he thinks; the facts are not discussed,” he said. “Road cycling is poorly developed in England, it does not have this culture of doping that you can have in Latin countries. For Wiggins, someone who has been caught doping should not be a hero. But Virenque, at the time, when he went to take the mountains jersey, created emotions. It does not fade.”

Rundfahrt

Why do you guys who feel that Sky/Wiggins must be defended at all costs must use insults?

Your post is a good one, but it does not negate anything I have said. That's great that they have said some things that are anti-doping, but many riders have sounded anti-doping and then been busted for doping. Teams as well. Heck Sky wouldn't take Millar but they are using a well known doping doctor and claiming to need to do further investigation. Heck, the way they hired him, not as a full time, but as someone to do some contract work, is pretty shady in itself. (Hmmm, I guess that negates your argument about them not being Postal and proves you are talking about things you don't know about)

When it comes to Merckx, I have made many comments about the greats of the past doping and how they are given a free pass because the doping technology has advanced since their day. Of course Merckx has nothing to so with my suspicions of Sky/Wiggins, it's just misdirection.


Who cares if it is not like the "old days" doping is doping. That sounds like an excuse for todays riders who get busted (or is just for Sky/Wiggins if they are doping?)

disgruntledgoat

Be fair, you give as good as you get...

Rundfahrt

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Be fair, you give as good as you get...

Not even close. I don't start out insulting people, I only give it back in return.

rubertoe

Rundfahrt wrote:

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Be fair, you give as good as you get...

Not even close. I don't start out insulting people, I only give it back in return.

where is the yawn icon

RichN95.

rubertoe wrote:

where is the yawn icon

Save it for later:

Rundfahrt

Stanley222 wrote:

Rundfahrt wrote:

That's exciting.

You don't help yourself Rundfahrt by putting things like this! :roll:

1) I failed to see what that part had to do with the discussion.

2) Does it matter? Let's be honest, by voicing suspicions about Sky/Wiggins I have been branded a troll, insulted and had people flat out lie in claims of what I have said. To the people who get most involved nothing I post beyond saying I am wrong and Sky/Wiggins are the cleanest of clean and bastions of anti-doping the world over would ever help myself, as they refuse to look at any other point of view. You can roll your eyes all you want but that is a fact.

Yellow Peril

Rundfahrt wrote:

Stanley222 wrote:

Rundfahrt wrote:

That's exciting.

You don't help yourself Rundfahrt by putting things like this! :roll:

1) I failed to see what that part had to do with the discussion.

2) Does it matter? Let's be honest, by voicing suspicions about Sky/Wiggins I have been branded a troll, insulted and had people flat out lie in claims of what I have said. To the people who get most involved nothing I post beyond saying I am wrong and Sky/Wiggins are the cleanest of clean and bastions of anti-doping the world over would ever help myself, as they refuse to look at any other point of view. You can roll your eyes all you want but that is a fact.

I think there is more evidence to suggest you are a troll than there is to support a doping claim against Sky or Wiggins. Show me the evidence from riders/support staff/medical personnel/anti doping agencies show me the Simeoni incidents in Wiggins' riding career and I'll believe you. Other than good performances against mundane opposition and a gift of a parcours I see nothing remarkable in Sky's performance to date.

Rundfahrt

Yellow Peril wrote:

Rundfahrt wrote:

Stanley222 wrote:

Rundfahrt wrote:

That's exciting.

You don't help yourself Rundfahrt by putting things like this! :roll:

1) I failed to see what that part had to do with the discussion.

2) Does it matter? Let's be honest, by voicing suspicions about Sky/Wiggins I have been branded a troll, insulted and had people flat out lie in claims of what I have said. To the people who get most involved nothing I post beyond saying I am wrong and Sky/Wiggins are the cleanest of clean and bastions of anti-doping the world over would ever help myself, as they refuse to look at any other point of view. You can roll your eyes all you want but that is a fact.

I think there is more evidence to suggest you are a troll than there is to support a doping claim against Sky or Wiggins. Show me the evidence from riders/support staff/medical personnel/anti doping agencies show me the Simeoni incidents in Wiggins' riding career and I'll believe you. Other than good performances against mundane opposition and a gift of a parcours I see nothing remarkable in Sky's performance to date.

Mundane opposition and a gift of a parcours, I'll add that to the rapidly expanding list of excuses as to why nobody should have any suspicions of Sky/Wiggins.

You guys crack me up.

dirtymonkey1985

Rundfahrt wrote:

Yellow Peril wrote:

Rundfahrt wrote:

Stanley222 wrote:

Rundfahrt wrote:

That's exciting.

You don't help yourself Rundfahrt by putting things like this! :roll:

1) I failed to see what that part had to do with the discussion.

2) Does it matter? Let's be honest, by voicing suspicions about Sky/Wiggins I have been branded a troll, insulted and had people flat out lie in claims of what I have said. To the people who get most involved nothing I post beyond saying I am wrong and Sky/Wiggins are the cleanest of clean and bastions of anti-doping the world over would ever help myself, as they refuse to look at any other point of view. You can roll your eyes all you want but that is a fact.

I think there is more evidence to suggest you are a troll than there is to support a doping claim against Sky or Wiggins. Show me the evidence from riders/support staff/medical personnel/anti doping agencies show me the Simeoni incidents in Wiggins' riding career and I'll believe you. Other than good performances against mundane opposition and a gift of a parcours I see nothing remarkable in Sky's performance to date.

Mundane opposition and a gift of a parcours, I'll add that to the rapidly expanding list of excuses as to why nobody should have any suspicions of Sky/Wiggins.

You guys crack me up.

What leads you to believe that sky/wiggins have doped? I'm genuinely interested