Wiggins 2012 performance

RichN95.

iainf72 wrote:

Because those 4 were 3'rd tier cobble riders and Tom is a Flemish god?

EBH had his own coach until recently, didn't he?

Yep, and they've knocked that on the head.

If all the Manchester United players all went off doing their own training half the time, it would be seen as crazy. But in cycling it is seen as the norm. But it's crazy.

(And why are those cobble riders third rate if the stage racers are doped up supermen?)

heavymental

plectrum wrote:

Heavymental wrote:

So glad to find no trolls have marched into this thread... yet.

I think Sky can be compared to Woodwards England leading up to the 2003 World Cup. 1% improvement in 100 different areas. A big budget and a very focused approach usually gets results.

Woodwards England were also accused of being a bit dull but they got the job done and were able to turn the style on now and again. Lets hope Sky can do something a bit special at some point but I wouldn't mind if they ground out the win for now.

the scary aspect to Woodward's 03 team is how their bodies fell apart in the years after, so many injuries. I'm sure they all think it was worth it but it wasn't great for the long term development of English rugby.

Was it any worse than any other group of players in top flight rugby? I don't know. But I'm seeing a friend who did a PHD in rugby injuries and set in motion a system of injury recording at the RFU so I'll ask him.

But yes, such commitment to a cause no doubt puts a lot of stress on the body.

ddraver

I confess that this is anecdote vs anecdote, but if you compare David Millar's book on the life of a pro cyclist vs what Sky have done this year, it gives you some insight into how hard they really do work there! Rich also makes a very valid point about training/coaching. This was nt the 1990's, Millar is talking about 4 years ago! Was nt there a quote somewhere that he's been home for just 6 weeks this year?

How much of that is just down to cash and how much is down to taking a totally new view of the sport and constantly questioning established cycling practices remains to be seen. Every team now has a fleet of Turbo trainers for after each stage I notice. Ive mentioned before that a lot of what is considered the norm in cycling is certainly not what is the norm in almost every other sport...(and i think a lot of that is due to the massive skew that doping has had on cycling for the last 20 years)

I know it's fashionable to rib the work that Psychologists do but Wiggins was talking about Shane Sutton nurturing him through the TT today reminding him of all the hard work, the time away from family etc etc. Most DS's would simply be shouting Pedal Harder down the radio, even something as easy as that might help a particular rider get a little bit more out of they're legs..

I have nt heard this from many other riders in the peloton...yet

Abdoujaparov

Don't underestimate how half-*rsed pro cycling has been about certain aspects of training/conditioning. Not warming down is one example, and using races to train rather than fine-tune is starting to seem more and more absurd by the week.

Monty Zoncolan

ddraver wrote:

I confess that this is anecdote vs anecdote, but if you compare David Millar's book on the life of a pro cyclist vs what Sky have done this year, it gives you some insight into how hard they really do work there! Rich also makes a very valid point about training/coaching. This was nt the 1990's, Millar is talking about 4 years ago! Was nt there a quote somewhere that he's been home for just 6 weeks this year?

How much of that is just down to cash and how much is down to taking a totally new view of the sport and constantly questioning established cycling practices remains to be seen. Every team now has a fleet of Turbo trainers for after each stage I notice. Ive mentioned before that a lot of what is considered the norm in cycling is certainly not what is the norm in almost every other sport...(and i think a lot of that is due to the massive skew that doping has had on cycling for the last 20 years)

I know it's fashionable to rib the work that Psychologists do but Wiggins was talking about Shane Sutton nurturing him through the TT today reminding him of all the hard work, the time away from family etc etc. Most DS's would simply be shouting Pedal Harder down the radio, even something as easy as that might help a particular rider get a little bit more out of they're legs..

I have nt heard this from many other riders in the peloton...yet

Janez Brajkovic tweeted positively about the approach of sky today.

ddraver

I saw....hence the reason I put a yet. I think it's going to be a lot tougher for Sky in years to come, much like it has become with the track cycling.

Moomaloid

ddraver wrote:

I confess that this is anecdote vs anecdote, but if you compare David Millar's book on the life of a pro cyclist vs what Sky have done this year, it gives you some insight into how hard they really do work there! Rich also makes a very valid point about training/coaching. This was nt the 1990's, Millar is talking about 4 years ago! Was nt there a quote somewhere that he's been home for just 6 weeks this year?

How much of that is just down to cash and how much is down to taking a totally new view of the sport and constantly questioning established cycling practices remains to be seen. Every team now has a fleet of Turbo trainers for after each stage I notice. Ive mentioned before that a lot of what is considered the norm in cycling is certainly not what is the norm in almost every other sport...(and i think a lot of that is due to the massive skew that doping has had on cycling for the last 20 years)

I know it's fashionable to rib the work that Psychologists do but Wiggins was talking about Shane Sutton nurturing him through the TT today reminding him of all the hard work, the time away from family etc etc. Most DS's would simply be shouting Pedal Harder down the radio, even something as easy as that might help a particular rider get a little bit more out of they're legs..

I have nt heard this from many other riders in the peloton...yet

Finally a post worth reading... well done that man! Been following Wiggins since before he turned pro with the Linda McCartney Team. A credit to the sport and the country. Find all the negativity from people on here disappointing...

Richrd2205

iainf72 wrote:

Because those 4 were 3'rd tier cobble riders and Tom is a Flemish god?

EBH had his own coach until recently, didn't he?

Surely Flecha wasn't 3rd tier. 3 podiums and 7 top 10 placings in 8 years isn't a bad record. I accept not exactly Boonen or Cancellera, but you might be slightly overstating.
(EBH, however, is hugely praised by you calling him 3rd tier )

whiteboytrash

plectrum wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Re the Sky and the money thing, its part of what I don't like. Their riders are privileged. Yes it goes to show what can be achieved with funds, organistation and focus etc but I don't like them having that advantage. Yes some teams had more than others in the past, but I feel that Sky are a league apart and nothing this sport has seen before.

FF,

I'm not sure that Sky have any more cash at their disposal than Quickstep or BMC and I'm sure Radioshack aren't hard up. Also Wiggins was quoted recently as saying that the salaries of the guys at Sky would surprise many and aren't anywhere near as high as thought.

I can understand why some may not like the Sky corporation but am unsure why you'd not like the cycling team. They are overtly anti doping and so they must be doing things better in ever other division from equipment, training, eating, regimes, preparation, reconnaissance etc.

...and how are they overtly anti-doping? What? By hiring one of the biggest doping Doctors of all time? - Geert Leinders.

I've not seen anything from Sky that's suggests a strong anti-doping stance. Actually it's to the contrary. Wiggins continually references the team to USPS and Banesto. He praises Lance and makes those never tested positive type remarks.

I believe my own eyes and what I'm seeing in this Tour I don't like. It smells like doping,

dave_1

great TT from Bradley Wiggins but Froome, clearly isn't ill..great timing or maybe listening to Mozart helped?, I want Wiggins to win but IMO Froome will win. 2 minutes still isn't a lot

Yellow Peril

Don't forget a lot of it is down to a favourable parcours. Change the route by a few stages and all of a sudden Sky might not seem so dominating and just an expensive also ran team. A few more stages like the one's Sagan won on and would we all be raising our eyebrows at him instead? Would Cav be world champion on any other course than the one he won on in Denmark? unlikely.

Lots of Sky's planets have aligned at once. The route is TT friendly just a few MTF's and they have a great TT'er who has learnt to TT uphill. By a combination of good fortune and hard work it is theirs to lose.

RichN95.

whiteboytrash wrote:

...and how are they overtly anti-doping? What? By hiring one of the biggest doping Doctors of all time? - Geert Leinders.

He's not even a doping doctor, let alone one of the biggest of all time. No-one's ever accused him of doping anyone - just that he would have been aware of doping going on.

The way that some people have grossly exaggerated his role at Rabobank shows a rather pathetic desperation to find a doping story. After all there's nothing more repulsive to them than the idea than clean cyclists can win.

ddraver

I still can't believe that people still pay any attention to what they said in their first year. Was nt it abundantly clear to everyone that they were massively over-confident and made a massive mistake and went home with their tails so firmly between their legs they could barely walk straight!

There is simply no way that you can have a cycling team with zero associations with doping. Wiggins would be out becasue he rode for Cofidis when one of their riders was busted, Cav would be out becasue everyone knows HTC was just the US wing of T-mobile, Froome is African and you knooooww that that's dodgy* etc etc

But perhaps the best example that with such a rationale, JV would not be in charge of his own Garmin team! The team that probably has done more than any other to try and stop doping in the Pro Peloton.

*not serious

inkyfingers

Reading some comments you'd think that the Tour has never had a TT heavy parcours before.

MartinB2444

whiteboytrash wrote:

plectrum wrote:

frenchfighter wrote:

Re the Sky and the money thing, its part of what I don't like. Their riders are privileged. Yes it goes to show what can be achieved with funds, organistation and focus etc but I don't like them having that advantage. Yes some teams had more than others in the past, but I feel that Sky are a league apart and nothing this sport has seen before.

FF,

I'm not sure that Sky have any more cash at their disposal than Quickstep or BMC and I'm sure Radioshack aren't hard up. Also Wiggins was quoted recently as saying that the salaries of the guys at Sky would surprise many and aren't anywhere near as high as thought.

I can understand why some may not like the Sky corporation but am unsure why you'd not like the cycling team. They are overtly anti doping and so they must be doing things better in ever other division from equipment, training, eating, regimes, preparation, reconnaissance etc.

...and how are they overtly anti-doping? What? By hiring one of the biggest doping Doctors of all time? - Geert Leinders.

I've not seen anything from Sky that's suggests a strong anti-doping stance. Actually it's to the contrary. Wiggins continually references the team to USPS and Banesto. He praises Lance and makes those never tested positive type remarks.

I believe my own eyes and what I'm seeing in this Tour I don't like. It smells like doping,

So you believe your eyes but go on smell :roll: The only thing you've seen with your eyes is a series of outstanding performances. What you're actually going on is a series of very rickety suppositions. Dave Brailsford is offering a series of seminars at the end of the season outlining the training schedules and performance gains. Might be better than a trip to the opticians

mroli

I think it is also worth mentioning that when the track cycling was targetted by the Olympic bods in this country, they saw, for a relatively small investment, a large number of potential medals to be won. Although this country lagged behind in facilities for track cycling - it was way ahead of loads of others - for example there are very few velodromes in Africa/the Carribean etc and therefore there just is not the competition that there is in athletics.

Looking at road cycling is just a natural progression of that - again, although the pool is bigger, it is not a massive pool and there are definitely things that could have been put in place that were not in place before - I mean, look at the budget of a Sky against that of a Euskatel. It is thoroughly believable that the support network for Sky is going to be far better and more comprehensive and will aggregate to an extra couple of percent on the performance of their riders.

People (probably me included) thought that Sky were a little "arriviste" when they first started off and thought some of their "innovations" (the light on their bus, taking their own mattresses around with them, all the Team Sky branding) was a little OTT. However, you can't argue with their results so far. And what you can't argue with is the fact that other teams are adopting some of their ideas.

The other thing that they've done is manage their riders very well - in the case of Wiggins, apparently he is quite "highly strung", but by building a team around him and making him feel loved, they've removed some of those concerns.

I think it is probably fair to say that Sky didn't meet expectations in the first year - they were 15th in the UCI World Rankings (they did withdraw from the Vuelta after Gonzales tragically died), but last year they were 2nd and you would probably say they have strengthened again this year.

Interestingly enough, whilst everyone is focusing on Wiggins and Froome, EBH's career is stagnating a little this year - Sagan could ruin his palmares.... I know Sky did a lot of work on his diet so he could contend for longer stages and 2 wins last year at the tour is pretty good, but his form and results this year have not been so great...

Spiny_Norman

Ross Tucker's written an interesting piece on Wiggins and power output. He thinks Wiggo looks like a guilty tool for his outburst about doping accusations, but the numbers and ascent times look entirely believable, compared with the extraterrestrial performances of 10 years ago.

I understand his point about how Wiggins should realise that he's going to have fingers pointed just because of the toxic legacy of the sport's recent history, but I find it particularly ironic that this legacy means that his sustained outputs around 6W/kg are the subject of more scrutiny than certain riders (no names, no pack drill) got for sustained outputs nearer to 7W/kg back in the day. I think if I was having an outstanding season riding clean and all I got was a load of gossip and suspicion because of a different load of riders who were performing on a completely different level a sporting generation ago, my responses to those questions might be even less patient than Wiggins'.

disgruntledgoat

Roche in this mornings Telegraph says that Froome is Wiggin's main rival and that he should cut out the four letter words as cyclists should be good role models for the kids.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Steven Roche.

Pross

disgruntledgoat wrote:

Roche in this mornings Telegraph says that Froome is Wiggin's main rival and that he should cut out the four letter words as cyclists should be good role models for the kids.

Ladies and Gentlemen, Steven Roche.

I'm pretty sure there were a few 4 letter words uttered by Roche when this impressionable youngster had the priveledge to spend 3 hours riding with him 15 years ago. Of course, I might have been mistaken as understanding what he says isn't easy!

Daz555

inkyfingers wrote:

Reading some comments you'd think that the Tour has never had a TT heavy parcours before.

Exactly - and it is only right the Tour ebbs and flows over the years to keep the Tour fresh and to give winning chances to different kinds of riders.

thegreatdivide

So if he wins it’s a win for England is it?

Jez mon

I think the thing is, no one really knows what clean cycling looks like. We look at Ricco and how his performances were E.T, without remembering the possibility/probability that a fair few of those he was out-climbing were probably on some kind of preparation themselves.

The only way to really try and make an educated guess, is to look at the power readings. Even then, most of us aren't sports scientists. FWIW I'm gonna have to sit on the fence for a while more, but I don't want to spoil any sky supporters enjoyment.

rick_chasey

inkyfingers wrote:

Reading some comments you'd think that the Tour has never had a TT heavy parcours before.

Doesn't mean it's good.

I'm all for more TTs, but only if they keep up the mountain end of the bargain.

Same amount of climbing as 2010 or 2011, only with more TTs.


That makes more sense. Long TTs are only good for racing if you give people a chance to redress the balance.

From what we've seen so far, and judging by the parcours, that seems unlikely to be the case.

disgruntledgoat

Nice little piece from Gilles de Roche also in the Telegraph

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/tour-de-france/9387848/Tour-de-France-2012-Bradley-Wiggins-deserves-to-wear-yellow-jersey-whatever-Twitter-cynics-say.html

dave_1

I hope Wiggins wins it, but I think Froome will finish alone on one or both summits and Wiggins will be left with a minute to overcome in the final stage TT.

rick_chasey

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/07 ... f+Sport%29

fungus_the_muffin_man

thegreatdivide wrote:

So if he wins it’s a win for England is it?

Of course if he was Welsh, NI, Scottish, Belgium or South African it would be a win for GB & UK. If he's English then it's just a win for England. All the other hanger on can go feck themselves

dsoutar

frenchfighter wrote:

Re the Sky and the money thing, its part of what I don't like. Their riders are privileged. Yes it goes to show what can be achieved with funds, organistation and focus etc but I don't like them having that advantage. Yes some teams had more than others in the past, but I feel that Sky are a league apart and nothing this sport has seen before.

Cavendish obviously doesn't think so judging by his latest tweet: "My hotel room for the rest day has 1 electrical socket and a plastic chair. I shall say no more on this matter"

Spiny_Norman

Rick Chasey wrote:

http://www.sportsscientists.com/2012/07/tour-in-mountains-analysis-discussion.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed:+blogspot/cJKs+(The+Science+of+Sport)

Hello, is this thing on?

rick_chasey

Touché