USADA files doping charges against Lance

Jez mon

Crozza wrote:

this sums up my feelings pretty well, based on my limited understanding of the facts, and the problems that I have with a lot of the statements that Bernie claims are backed by "evidence":

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Opinion/Armst ... _2848.html

"If he’s guilty and the only way to enforce a ban on him is through a bogus process, I hope he’s not banned, because then our process suffers."

Surely that should be

If he’s guilty and the only way to enforce a ban on him is through a bogus process, than our original process needs review.

If I was testing a part to go in a jet engine, which kept failing in use, yet stood up to lab tests, I wouldn't scratch my head and go well, it's passing the tests, it must be fine. I'd go, this process is failing to deliver the correct result.

BikingBernie

FSR_XC wrote:

I actually think this is a real shame.  After so many previous witch hunts, if the doping evidence was out there, Lance should have been convicted by now.

Perhaps he would have been if the UCI hadn't been protecting him. In fact he would have been busted for doping in the very first Tour of his comeback.

timoid.

FSR_XC wrote:

I actually think this is a real shame.  After so many previous witch hunts, if the doping evidence was out there, Lance should have been convicted by now.

It's coming out now as the evidence used is that which was gathered by the Feds in misuse of public funds case is being used. People will speak to the Feds where perjury means a long stretch that would not speak to USADA or the UCI (if they could be arsed asking) as their sanctions hold no fears to retired riders.

Gazzetta67

Come out Come out wherever you are Moray & Dennis - look there are plenty of shoulders to cry on in the forum or we have numbers to get you counselling as were one big happy family on here eh 8)

jerry3571

Is Lance the first rider to be done for having dodgy figures? I thought that Dodgy Figures was the green light for WADAs Vampires to chase riders 24/7? Without an actual physical sample the evidencs is just hearsay.
I know about the alleged positive on the Tour de Suisse but is that Sample still around or has it been dumped?
Sounds like LA is being done for something that no other rider has been done for.
Two other things; how does George Hincapie still ride without any wiff of suspicion? He surely would be implicated.
Also, the big question is the connection between certain Teams/Riders and the Authorities. Whether there were certain text messages between Testers and certain Teams etc and other funny goings on.
I do feel sorry for the Cancer Charity and Cancer Sufferers. I know some people like to trash his Charity but it must do some good a whole.
Not too sure about ACs positive also as the rule book seems to be changed just to get the big riders. I'm no fool and think that the sport is corrupt but the rules seem to be very fluid.

Thinking present Teams and Riders are on the riguteous path is a mistake also.

Wot a kerfuffle!! ;D

Jerry

LeicesterLad

FSR_XC wrote:

I actually think this is a real shame.  After so many previous witch hunts, if the doping evidence was out there, Lance should have been convicted by now.

Lance Armstrong has done more for the sport of cycling throughout his career than probably any other person involved in the sport and every time we investigate him, it brings the whole sport back into the gutter.  If we continue to say that everyone from this era was involved in doping, then we may as well right off the last century in terms of cycling achievements as all we seem to want to do is bring the sport into disrepute.

Whether Lance doped or not remains to be proven, but what he has done for the sport and the damage it will have if he is guilty will have lasting effects.  Then what does guilty look like?  He has never had a positive test, so it will be the word of a few people who are given immunity against their indiscretions and were not able to beat the man to discredit him.  I can't help thinking this is a rather tainted view.

I do have one question, unrelated to cycling.  What anti doping investigation is there for football?  I am amazed how a (let's face it) minor sport like cycling has more publicity about drugs than about races, yet I have never heard of even an accusation in football.  Guys in their 20's having heart attacks etc anyone?

Anyway, Lance has in recent months had a similar effect on triathlon as he had on his return to cycling.  He has this year qualified for Kona (the TdF of Ironman triathlon) and has created a massive amount of publicity for this sport.  These accusations mean he may not race Kona, but more importantly, bring the veil of drugs over the sport of triathlon.

If we continue to dig up allegations, how will the sport of cycling ever show a clean bill of health to the world?

Lance Armstrong has been a sordid little stain on our sport for the last 10 years. It's only to the non-cycling fans and Wider non cycling press who pretend to like the sport for 3 weeks in July that Lance has reached out too. Those who actually appreciate and follow the sport as a hobby will be glad to see the end of Lance Armstrong. It isn't just about his doping, his whole attitude, bullishness, lies is what make Armstrong a stain on cycling.

No_Ta_Doctor

Timoid. wrote:

FSR_XC wrote:

I actually think this is a real shame.  After so many previous witch hunts, if the doping evidence was out there, Lance should have been convicted by now.

It's coming out now as the evidence used is that which was gathered by the Feds in misuse of public funds case is being used. People will speak to the Feds where perjury means a long stretch that would not speak to USADA or the UCI (if they could be arsed asking) as their sanctions hold no fears to retired riders.

That.

This topic needs a cut 'n' paste Frequently Dispelled Myths list, for the benefit of all those commenting in favour of Lance without bothering to actually read anything about the case.

skylla

jay sous.

One night of the week I decide to go out to watch a bit of footie (damn you dutch squad!) and wake up to the news that LA might have to hand back his 7 olympic medals. Seriously confused. Was it the booze? Have I overdosed on the paracetamols?

13 pages to catch up... now, where's my specs... this better be good...

No_Ta_Doctor

jerry3571 wrote:

Is Lance the first rider to be done for having dodgy figures? I thought that Dodgy Figures was the green light for WADAs Vampires to chase riders 24/7? Without an actual physical sample the evidencs is just hearsay.
I know about the alleged positive on the Tour de Suisse but is that Sample still around or has it been dumped?
Sounds like LA is being done for something that no other rider has been done for.
Two other things; how does George Hincapie still ride without any wiff of suspicion? He surely would be implicated.
Also, the big question is the connection between certain Teams/Riders and the Authorities. Whether there were certain text messages between Testers and certain Teams etc and other funny goings on.
I do feel sorry for the Cancer Charity and Cancer Sufferers. I know some people like to trash his Charity but it must do some good a whole.
Not too sure about ACs positive also as the rule book seems to be changed just to get the big riders. I'm no fool and think that the sport is corrupt but the rules seem to be very fluid.

Thinking present Teams and Riders are on the riguteous path is a mistake also.

Wot a kerfuffle!! ;D

Jerry

No, there have been previous bio passport bans.

Any bio passport values will be being used as corroborative evidence to back up testimony of ten other riders. Bans handed out without a positive test result are known as "non analytical positives". There have been plenty of them in the past, this is nothing new.

I'll refrain from commenting on Hincapie as I don't want to light that powder-keg.

The AC +ve was a murky case that CAS bodged in a way to try and save face for all.

No_Ta_Doctor

Gazzetta67 wrote:

Come out Come out wherever you are Moray & Dennis - look there are plenty of shoulders to cry on in the forum or we have numbers to get you counselling as were one big happy family on here eh 8)

Dennis was listening to Coltrane's "A Love Supreme" last night. I know this from Facebook.

You can read what you want into the album title but it's a fantastic and meditative piece of music.

Redhog14

LA appears like a boil on your nether regions it may be sore and obvious but its the one the doc says "leave it alone and it will go away however take the following precuations to prevent anymore from appearing". No evidence of cheating is not proof that you did or didn't; in Scotland we have a 3rd verdict of "Not Proven". The guy does not race anymore so walk away and lets get on with the future.

speshsteve

The only real winners here are the lawyers, they must be making a fortune.

The simple fact is that during the LA reign I believe it was a level playing field of sorts so why bother looking back. Draw a line underneath it and look to the future. Whats sad is that I still don't see any of the governing bodies taking a lead here and learning from he past to ensure the sport is clean from now on. By that a mean a consistent and clear code of conduct for all organisations where the rules, process and ramifications are clear and swift, the Contador saga was proof of this.

BikingBernie

Jez mon wrote:

If I was testing a part to go in a jet engine, which kept failing in use, yet stood up to lab tests, I wouldn't scratch my head and go well, it's passing the tests, it must be fine. I'd go, this process is failing to deliver the correct result.

Good point.

I have also taken a look at the 'SlowTwich' piece and am a little aghast. Perhaps they really don't know about Armstrong's history. Maybe they really don't want to know it because they see him as being a heroic fellow American and a 'much needed ombudsman' for their sport. However, that just about blows any credibility triathlons might have ever had. Not that amounted to much, given the failure to even test competitors in some big recent events.

I also see that they feel he can continue to compete in triathlons.

Overall, the triathlon scene appears to make cycling look like a bastion of credibility!

derbygrimpeur

FSR_XC wrote:

Lance Armstrong has done more for the sport of cycling throughout his career than probably any other person involved in the sport

You really think so? LA has done more for HIMSELF. He's not some selfless hero that promotes cycling. The fact that perhaps more people are aware of cycling due to his achievements is not because he's out there promoting the sport. He was being selfish in his achievements (sportsmen aren't successful for others' gratification) and it would seem used PEDs to do this.

I'd say Henri Desgrange has done more for cycling than LA. Also, the likes of Fignon and other ex pros that open up training camps etc. There's more to helping Cycling than being a face that joe public recognises.

andy_wrx

jerry3571 wrote:

how does George Hincapie still ride without any wiff of suspicion? He surely would be implicated.

When did Hincapie announce his retirement ?

When did this USADA Armstrong thing break ?

mididoctors

dsoutar wrote:

Interesting (and valid) reader comment on the L'equipe article:

nouveaux vainqueurs : 2005 Basso, 2004 Kloden, 2003 Ullrich, 2002 Beloki, 2001 Ullrich, 2000 Ullrich, 1999 Zulle. Mouais... Bien c'est pas beaucoup plus crédible! Et même si on doit fouiller dans les top 10 de ces tours pour trouver un vainqueur non douteux, ça fait froid dans le dos.

new winners: Basso 2005, 2004 Kloden, 2003 Ullrich, Beloki 2002, Ullrich 2001, Ullrich 2000, 1999 Zulle. Hmm ... It's not much more credible! And even if one searches the top 10 of these tours to find a winner no doubt, it is chilling.

I guess we just need a "find and replace all" formula to add asterisk to everybody during this period.

Have to agree.... zulle 99 was back from the festina affair so is probably the only possible non blood doped rider in that list

iainf72

mididoctors wrote:

Have to agree.... zulle 99 was back from the festina affair so is probably the only possible non blood doped rider in that list

Why would he have magically stopped blood doping because of Festina?

BikingBernie

Redhog14 wrote:

The guy does not race anymore so walk away and lets get on with the future.

Only the truth will set us free. And hopefully the fallout will see a root and branches reform of the UCI. Until that happens things will continue, with minor changes, much as they have done for the last 100 years.

derbygrimpeur

BikingBernie wrote:

Redhog14 wrote:

The guy does not race anymore so walk away and lets get on with the future.

Only the truth will set us free. And hopefully the fallout will see a root and branches reform of the UCI. Until that happens things will continue, with minor changes, much as they have done for the last 100 years.

this

Just because it's in the past, doesn't mean justice shouldn't be served. There are wider implications than simply the guilt of one individual.

frenchfighter

Im not bothering to follow festina's tweets as there are way too many, but if anyone is, has she said anything of interest?

Also:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/other_s ... 991866.stm

No_Ta_Doctor

Redhog14 wrote:

LA appears like a boil on your nether regions it may be sore and obvious but its the one the doc says "leave it alone and it will go away however take the following precuations to prevent anymore from appearing". No evidence of cheating is not proof that you did or didn't; in Scotland we have a 3rd verdict of "Not Proven". The guy does not race anymore so walk away and lets get on with the future.

This isn't just about Lance.

Bruyneel is listed as well. He currently directs one of the biggest teams in the sport. This is very much here and now.

mididoctors

speshsteve wrote:

The only real winners here are the lawyers, they must be making a fortune.

The simple fact is that during the LA reign I believe it was a level playing field of sorts so why bother looking back. Draw a line underneath it and look to the future. Whats sad is that I still don't see any of the governing bodies taking a lead here and learning from he past to ensure the sport is clean from now on. By that a mean a consistent and clear code of conduct for all organisations where the rules, process and ramifications are clear and swift, the Contador saga was proof of this.

I think the second point highlights why the first is wrong.... there needs to be a house clearing SERIES of catalysing events.

Lets concede they all doped back in the day [even thou riders like mottet probably didn't]

and lets concede doping made it a level playing field despite evidence some riders respond better than others to blood doping because that response is just another natural talent anyway..

even then I still find the conspiratorial behaviour to cover up failed tests put LA into a somewhat different bracket

for me the 2001 TdS allegation is the worst of the lot... I mean WTF

mididoctors

No tA Doctor wrote:

Redhog14 wrote:

LA appears like a boil on your nether regions it may be sore and obvious but its the one the doc says "leave it alone and it will go away however take the following precuations to prevent anymore from appearing". No evidence of cheating is not proof that you did or didn't; in Scotland we have a 3rd verdict of "Not Proven". The guy does not race anymore so walk away and lets get on with the future.

This isn't just about Lance.

Bruyneel is listed as well. He currently directs one of the biggest teams in the sport. This is very much here and now.

this is it

why is that man still in the sport

LeicesterLad

derbygrimpeur wrote:

BikingBernie wrote:

Redhog14 wrote:

The guy does not race anymore so walk away and lets get on with the future.

Only the truth will set us free. And hopefully the fallout will see a root and branches reform of the UCI. Until that happens things will continue, with minor changes, much as they have done for the last 100 years.

this

Just because it's in the past, doesn't mean justice shouldn't be served. There are wider implications than simply the guilt of one individual.

Exactly, its not about Lance, its about all the other people implicated that are still part of Cycling. IE, Bruyneel and the doctors, aswell.

mididoctors

iainf72 wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

Have to agree.... zulle 99 was back from the festina affair so is probably the only possible non blood doped rider in that list

Why would he have magically stopped blood doping because of Festina?

shame.... but I did use the caveat of possible

prawny

I think the point that a lot of LA sympathisers are missing is that this isn't just about the past, and it's not all about Lance. LA's name is on there yes but also at least 2 others that are currently dealing with top level riders (not big on my back room team knowledge so there could be others). This needs to happen because there is still the old guard of dodgy DS's and Doctors involved that could be putting pressure on new professionals to dope that otherwise might not and forcing the doping to continue.

Personally I can't stand Armstrong but I couldn't care less if he stripped of his tour wins, as people have said before who would you give them to?

Fingers crossed the sport/UCI gets the kick up the @rse it needs and we can all move forward.

On the sponsor thing, I think most of the current sponsors know how dirty cycling was/can be and most of the newer ones (sky & garmin in particular) make a big deal about not doping so as long as they dont get busted this wont do them any harm.

In fact the only sposors coming out of this badly will be Radioshack and Trek, and who could see Radioshack sticking around. Trek will be ok, but might owe Lemond some dollars.

prawny

I type too slowly

Monty Dog

Obviously, a number of Lance's ex-cronies weren't prepared to perjure themselves in front of the Grand Jury for the sake of the omerta - or are they to, just bitter and twisted liars like Betsy and Greg and were in fact jealous of his achievements?

When do we get Fat Pat's admittance that the UCI was in itself complicit, wittingly or unwittingly in the fraud and that he should resign and force a vote of no-confidence in their ability to administer the sport? Now, I am getting into la-la land?

rick_chasey

By and large, if you get the police involved, cyclists and athletes fess up.

The biggest revelations into doping in cycling and across sport come from police intervention, not anti-doping efforts.

No_Ta_Doctor

Interesting from WADA:

It is noted that the proceedings are the result of evidence gathered by USADA under its mandate and does not include evidence obtained by the investigation of the US Department of Justice.

Not sure what to make of that to be honest. My emphasis.