Hincapie
Comments
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No tA Doctor wrote:Basically, while you think George is a top bloke that served cycling well, I think he's an utter **** that helped to nearly destroy cycling.
The reality is somewhere in between though. Hincapie didn't invent doping, introduce it into cycling or actively encourage it. Rage should be reserved for those that did.
I wish I could find it online (and it is there somewhere as a PDF), but between his retirement and starting a team, Jon Vaughters wrote a brilliant piece for one of the UK cycling magazines about why cyclists dope and choices they face. If someone has a link to it, it does change your perspective of what many of these riders faced, and make it harder to condemn them. (You can also see the passion that lead to Garmin)Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:Basically, while you think George is a top bloke that served cycling well, I think he's an utter **** that helped to nearly destroy cycling.
The reality is somewhere in between though. Hincapie didn't invent doping, introduce it into cycling or actively encourage it. Rage should be reserved for those that did.
I wish I could find it online (and it is there somewhere as a PDF), but between his retirement and starting a team, Jon Vaughters wrote a brilliant piece for one of the UK cycling magazines about why cyclists dope and choices they face. If someone has a link to it, it does change your perspective of what many of these riders faced, and make it harder to condemn them. (You can also see the passion that lead to Garmin)
If you've got a PDF then please drop me a PM - I'd be very interested in reading it. Whether or not I agree with Vaughters he usually has something interesting and thought provoking to say. If I'm reading you correctly then Millar has a similar line of argument - and passion. I respect them both for it.
As always, there are shades of grey. I have cut-off lines that are EPO (changes the game) and Festina (now we know, the sport needs to clean up as it's killing itself). I also have some sympathy for the riders that felt the pressure - Rough Ride is a harrowing read, whichever era we're talking about - the dynamics of needing to dope to keep your job didn't change.
Hincapie, for me, is a bit special though. He wasn't just a struggling domestique, he was the domestique de luxe par excellence. On top of that, he was so close to the rider I detest above all the other dopers....
And yes, I can rationalise why LA was worse than the others. Not everyone will agree with me, but I think I have an account which is logically consistent.
I acknowledge that it's a sliding scale of shades of grey, but LA is jet black and for me Hincapie is a very, very dark grey indeed.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:If you've got a PDF then please drop me a PM - I'd be very interested in reading it.
If I could find it, I'd post a link for everyone. But I can't (I usually really good at this). I'm not 100% sure it was a PDF, but it wasn't a regular internet page.
I saw it because JV himself tweeted the link. But that was over a year ago and he tweets too much to find it. Ask him, he'll probably know.
The jist of the article was a clearly autobiographical account detailing everything that happens from doing your first race as a kid up to the point where you are encouraged to dope.Twitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:If you've got a PDF then please drop me a PM - I'd be very interested in reading it.
If I could find it, I'd post a link for everyone. But I can't (I usually really good at this). I'm not 100% sure it was a PDF, but it wasn't a regular internet page.
I saw it because JV himself tweeted the link. But that was over a year ago and he tweets too much to find it. Ask him, he'll probably know.
The jist of the article was a clearly autobiographical account detailing everything that happens from doing your first race as a kid up to the point where you are encouraged to dope.
OK, thanks, will try and track it down.
Might just ask Bernie, he seems to have a cross referenced links database of this sort of stuff... ;-)Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
I have no particular regard for Hincapie either way, and care very little about his past performances and how they were achieved, simply because I watch cycling for the spectacle of the race today.
Having read through this thread, my opinion of Hincapie has not changed one jot. My opinion of Andyp and No Ta Doctor however has nosedived to as low as it could get. Just have a look at what you achieved here fellas; belittled, goaded and badgered a plain old cycling fan into anger simply because he dares to admit admiration for someone you don't like. Congratulations. Must be so proud. Feel good?Open One+ BMC TE29 Seven 622SL On One Scandal Cervelo RS0 -
Wheelspinner wrote:I have no particular regard for Hincapie either way, and care very little about his past performances and how they were achieved, simply because I watch cycling for the spectacle of the race today.
Having read through this thread, my opinion of Hincapie has not changed one jot. My opinion of Andyp and No Ta Doctor however has nosedived to as low as it could get. Just have a look at what you achieved here fellas; belittled, goaded and badgered a plain old cycling fan into anger simply because he dares to admit admiration for someone you don't like. Congratulations. Must be so proud. Feel good?
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Even though you're 100% wrong.
I've not belittled MR, nor have I goaded him. I've stated my opinion on Hincapie and what he stands for, and received a shed load of abuse for it. I've been open and honest about why I feel that way about Hincapie and barring a comment about "lack of sleep" have made no personal reference to MR - who I genuinely like on this forum - at all. I did parody his "far more eloquent posters" theme - but that was fairly tongue in cheek, and if we want to get "playground" about this - I didn't start it.
For reference, I have a genuine disagreement with RichN95 about Hincapie, but as yet I haven't reduced him to calling me a "strap-on".
I'm not interested in fight with MR. But I'm not going to have my opinion walked over because we all want some rosy feeling about a bloke who helped LA cheat his way to 7 TdFs. If MR can't handle a difference in opinion on a public forum that's his problem, not mine.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:For reference, I have a genuine disagreement with RichN95 about Hincapie, but as yet I haven't reduced him to calling me a "strap-on".
I prefer to see you more as a Rampant Rabbit.
(Don't google that at work)Twitter: @RichN950 -
No tA Doctor wrote:
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Even though you're 100% wrong.
Please explain in one paragraph exactly how you determined that my opinion is 100% wrong? Clearly, you are the final arbiter of what everyone else is allowed to think, not just the judge of the facts.
You do know what an opinion is, don't you?Open One+ BMC TE29 Seven 622SL On One Scandal Cervelo RS0 -
Wheelspinner wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Even though you're 100% wrong.
Please explain in one paragraph exactly how you determined that my opinion is 100% wrong? Clearly, you are the final arbiter of what everyone else is allowed to think, not just the judge of the facts.
You do know what an opinion is, don't you?
That's pretty much what I did in the post you've just replied to. Go and re-read the thread. It's not me that's doing name calling and personal attacks.
I know what an opinion is. Yours is demonstrably wrong. I didn't goad MR, I didn't insult him. Ergo: you're wrong.
Demonstrate otherwise or quit stirring.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
RichN95 wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:Basically, while you think George is a top bloke that served cycling well, I think he's an utter **** that helped to nearly destroy cycling.
The reality is somewhere in between though. Hincapie didn't invent doping, introduce it into cycling or actively encourage it. Rage should be reserved for those that did.
I wish I could find it online (and it is there somewhere as a PDF), but between his retirement and starting a team, Jon Vaughters wrote a brilliant piece for one of the UK cycling magazines about why cyclists dope and choices they face. If someone has a link to it, it does change your perspective of what many of these riders faced, and make it harder to condemn them. (You can also see the passion that lead to Garmin)
I think I've also seen this or something very similar. I've got a feeling it was linked from the dailypelotonforums site a couple of years ago but likewise I don't have it anymore. Basically it gave a real insight into how some people who had considered themselves to be the last people to ever do so and genuinely good guys (at least in Vaughters' eyes) found themselves doing EPO. It also made the JV position where he has all but admitted to doping but won't name names understandable, at least for me. Some good people (in his view) got caught up in the whole doping mess and he has no desire to bring them down with the bad guys. It isn't as simplistic as all dopers are evil as some would have you believe.0 -
RichN95 wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:For reference, I have a genuine disagreement with RichN95 about Hincapie, but as yet I haven't reduced him to calling me a "strap-on".
I prefer to see you more as a Rampant Rabbit.
(Don't google that at work)
I'm going to take that as a compliment. Because I don't need to Google it.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
DeadCalm wrote:RichN95 wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:Basically, while you think George is a top bloke that served cycling well, I think he's an utter **** that helped to nearly destroy cycling.
The reality is somewhere in between though. Hincapie didn't invent doping, introduce it into cycling or actively encourage it. Rage should be reserved for those that did.
I wish I could find it online (and it is there somewhere as a PDF), but between his retirement and starting a team, Jon Vaughters wrote a brilliant piece for one of the UK cycling magazines about why cyclists dope and choices they face. If someone has a link to it, it does change your perspective of what many of these riders faced, and make it harder to condemn them. (You can also see the passion that lead to Garmin)
I think I've also seen this or something very similar. I've got a feeling it was linked from the dailypelotonforums site a couple of years ago but likewise I don't have it anymore. Basically it gave a real insight into how some people who had considered themselves to be the last people to ever do so and genuinely good guys (at least in Vaughters' eyes) found themselves doing EPO. It also made the JV position where he has all but admitted to doping but won't name names understandable, at least for me. Some good people (in his view) got caught up in the whole doping mess and he has no desire to bring them down with the bad guys. It isn't as simplistic as all dopers are evil as some would have you believe.
If I knew how to use Twitter properly to send him a private message I'd try and ask him (how to do that in 140 chars?). But I don't.
10 bonus points in the PTP for anyone that can track this down (AFX promised this was OK, honest*).
*I've made this up completely.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
No tA Doctor wrote:I know what an opinion is. Yours is demonstrably wrong. I didn't goad MR, I didn't insult him. Ergo: you're wrong.
Demonstrate otherwise or quit stirring.
Well, there was this:
I'd call that mildly condescending and insulting at a minimum, even if you meant it "tongue in cheek". Must say, I missed that tone in the original post, as did Mad Rapper I think.No tA Doctor wrote:More eloquent posters than you have eulogised far better riders than Hincapie who've been known to have been on the gear and have been given equally short shrift.
And then this, which I would suggest is a little more than mildly inflammatory, even if in response to MR's swearingNo tA Doctor wrote:Basically, while you think George is a top bloke that served cycling well, I think he's an utter **** that helped to nearly estroy cycling. I missed over a decade of a sport I love because of c*nts like Hincapie, sorry if I won't let you build your f*cking shrine to him here.
And possibly this:No tA Doctor wrote:But I'm not going to have my opinion walked over because we all want some rosy feeling about a bloke who helped LA cheat his way to 7 TdFs. If MR can't handle a difference in opinion on a public forum that's his problem, not mine.
...where you at least seem to acknowledge that differences in opinion are ok on a public forum. Except when those opinions differ from yours, apparently:No tA Doctor wrote:
That's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Even though you're 100% wrong.
... where you decided that what I think of you and what you said is clearly, unarguably wrong. Wow.
No Ta... you clearly have strongly held opinions, which is fine. You just need to get over the fact that other folks may not agree with yours, and moreover there are times when they just may be a teeny bit tired of you shouting it at them over and over and over. From what I read, several times, Mad Rapper simply expressed a view that he'd be sad to see Big George Hincapie retire from pro-racing, as he was a fan (despite his past associations), and for that, between you and Andyp, he got pilloried for being some sort of ill-informed fool.
Then there was this:No tA Doctor wrote:
As for my personal position on the actual issue, please read this: viewtopic.php?f=40002&t=12859234&start=60#p17673105 I'm not just shooting from the hip, it's a position I've held for a long time. I mean it, I stick by it, and it demeans both of us for you to suggest it's worthless without engaging with it.
I take it you expect everyone else to respect and "engage with" your opinions. Pity you seem incapable of returning the courtesy.Open One+ BMC TE29 Seven 622SL On One Scandal Cervelo RS0 -
Well that's me told.
Next time someone spends half a thread telling people what they're allowed to post on a "farewell thread" (has Hincapie died or something, are we supposed to be "respecting the dead" or something? I thought he'd just announced he was retiring at the end of the season?) I shall be careful not to use an almost verbatim quote from him regarding another poster's lack of eloquence while defending my position. You know, just in case it provokes him into a foul mouthed fury of name-calling.
And if I do happen to accidentally engineer a situation where I get called every name under the sun and told to "keep my stupid f*cking mouth shut" and seem to be being abused in language that would make a docker blush I'll be extra careful not to include any swearing in my post, as that might be inflammatory, even though none of it is actually directed at the forum member in question.
And should the worst come to the worst, and some enlightened soul pulls me up on my flagrant disregard for the right of this poster to express his opinion that I shouldn't be allowed to express an opinion then I'll obviously take that to heart and apologise to everyone, rather than take issue with his reading of the situation.
Please feel free to inform me that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit, your input has been most valuable and educational, thank you.
For the mods: Genuine apologies for my engagement in this thread.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
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I found that Vaughters article from about 2004:
http://www.scribd.com/RaceRadio/d/56420 ... -VaughtersTwitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:I found that Vaughters article from about 2004:
http://www.scribd.com/RaceRadio/d/56420 ... -Vaughters
A good read. Thanks.0 -
One of the tales about how nice a guy Hincapie was amuses me in that it also shows how stupidly naive he (once) was:
In one of his earlier European races, he was apparently reluctant to throw his empty bottle into the bushes, having a slightly green viewpoint. He also thought it would make a good souvenir for one of the spectators on the roadside. So as the riders passed the next group of spectators, while travelling at over 40 km/hr, Hincapie held out his bottle to a spectator.
The man’s automatic reaction was to try and take it, and the impact knocked him flying. Fortunately for Hincapie, the man had no serious injuries, just bruising; it could have all gone so badly wrong (not to mention Hincapie could have also lost balance and crashed).0 -
RichN95 wrote:I found that Vaughters article from about 2004:
http://www.scribd.com/RaceRadio/d/56420 ... -Vaughters
Thanks.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
C,mon you cant ignore this thread .....he was always in front of his buddy lance...just sayin 8)0
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Although it is clear that he was dirty as sin as a rider -- the real question is does anyone like the Hincapie cycling clothing?0
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RichN95 wrote:No tA Doctor wrote:If you've got a PDF then please drop me a PM - I'd be very interested in reading it.
If I could find it, I'd post a link for everyone. But I can't (I usually really good at this). I'm not 100% sure it was a PDF, but it wasn't a regular internet page.
I saw it because JV himself tweeted the link. But that was over a year ago and he tweets too much to find it. Ask him, he'll probably know.
The jist of the article was a clearly autobiographical account detailing everything that happens from doing your first race as a kid up to the point where you are encouraged to dope.
is this what you're looking for? http://www.scribd.com/RaceRadio/d/56420890-Drugs-Vaughters
EDIT: nm stupid phone didnt load up the rest of the comments...0 -
RichN95 wrote:I found that Vaughters article from about 2004:
http://www.scribd.com/RaceRadio/d/56420 ... -Vaughters
I see that was posted by RaceRadio, that well-known 'nutter' from the clinic. Oh how times change.
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BikingBernie wrote:RichN95 wrote:I found that Vaughters article from about 2004:
http://www.scribd.com/RaceRadio/d/56420 ... -Vaughters
I see that was posted by RaceRadio, that well-known 'nutter' from the clinic. Oh how times change.
For someone who clearly fancies himself as some kind of intellectual you don't half often resort to childish name calling.0 -
inkyfingers wrote:Dave_1 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:inkyfingers wrote:I've always had a soft spot for George Hincapie. Not sure why, he just seems like a good guy who has devoted large chunks of his career to helping others win.
It would have been nice to see him get a big win, he just never had the luck, the team support and possibly that little extra bit of star quality that you need to win a Flanders or a Roubaix.
He was never quite good enough for Flanders or Roubaix.
He seemed like a decent enough chap..not much arrogance and 17 TDF finishes is a lot, but there's the Armstrong legacy and it won't go away if USADA has anything to do with it. I am guessing George knows something is round the corner so end the career now.
He's 38, so hardly a surprise he's chosen to retire. Trying to link it to some sort of Armstrong conspiracy theory is a bit of a leap isn't it?
The timing of Hincapie's announcement seems linked to USADA's conspiracy charges against Armstrong and his entourage,of whom George Hincapie was a core member for a decade.0
