Cycle Police - interesting chat

noodles71

I think this is the flavour of the week for City police and ASL enformement isn't the target it's us. This morning some prat PC with his pretend PC stopped next to me while I was waiting at a red light to proceed to give me grief that I was worth a £30 ticket for running a red, even though I had stopped. I'll put my hand up, my back wheel was 30cms ahead of the last line at the top of the ASL but before the dotted pedestrian lines. I was unclipped with feet on the ground waiting to the top of and far right of an ASL where traffic must and can only turn left for the green. So technically I had it explained I had gone over the line so I should be getting a ticket. I responded why are you trying to book me when you can clearly see the large white van behind me 30cms behind the same line and well into the ASL where I would have parked if he was not there. His reply was not to worry about what he has done wrong but to worry about what I had done wrong. His advice was instead of getting in front of the van I should have parked up to the left of him level with the line where there would be a very good chance he would not have seen me and proceeded to turn left into me where I was able to continue straight ahead via a cycle cutting in the centre strip. When I highlighted how unsafe his idea was I was told if I felt unsafe I should dismount and push my bike through a full footpath no doubt annoying a lot of pedestrians. I replied I cycle according to three groups of laws in this order of priority... 1. Laws of Physics 2. Laws of probability 3. Highway code. If I were to follow #3 to the letter #1 & #2 would catch up with me eventually as tragically we all know that cars do turn left into cyclists and fail to follow the law sometimes. This logic seemed to have saved me £30. All I was trying to do was stop for the red light, not hold up traffic as it moved away from the green and not impede pedestrians. Sorry to any police reading this for being upset at the term "prat" being used by surely you've got something better to do with your time.

Starmer

Also had a bit of an odd encounter with City of London Police this week. There's a set of traffic lights on Aldgate, just west of Aldgate East tube, and a police box just beyond them. I approached the lights while they were green, and they stayed green as I went through. Not even so much as a hint of amber. So I got a surprise when the policeman leaped off the pavement in front of me yelling "Cyclist, stop!" He asked my why I'd gone through a red light, I said I hadn't, it was green and we went round in circles like that for a while. He then said that he'd been planning on letting me go with some advice, but due to the attitude I had taken (fairly polite, no swearing but adamant that the light was green), he would be issuing a ticket.

Now, he was facing the back of the traffic lights as I went through them, so I have no idea how he determined what colour was displayed to traffic coming towards them. So I asked him to do his magic trick again, and we both looked at the back of the lights and I asked him to say what colour they were by this time. Cue blustering about him using his 'judgement' and no more mention of the ticket.

Thing is, I pass either him or one of his colleagues at the same place every day. Change route? Make a complaint? Just leave it and hope I'm not going to be stopped to explain myself every single morning as I pass a green light?

P.S. sorry for long first post, and thanks for all the good advice I've had from this board as I've lurked my way through my first few months of commuting.

sketchley

Starmer wrote:

Also had a bit of an odd encounter with City of London Police this week. There's a set of traffic lights on Aldgate, just west of Aldgate East tube, and a police box just beyond them. I approached the lights while they were green, and they stayed green as I went through. Not even so much as a hint of amber. So I got a surprise when the policeman leaped off the pavement in front of me yelling "Cyclist, stop!" He asked my why I'd gone through a red light, I said I hadn't, it was green and we went round in circles like that for a while. He then said that he'd been planning on letting me go with some advice, but due to the attitude I had taken (fairly polite, no swearing but adamant that the light was green), he would be issuing a ticket.

Now, he was facing the back of the traffic lights as I went through them, so I have no idea how he determined what colour was displayed to traffic coming towards them. So I asked him to do his magic trick again, and we both looked at the back of the lights and I asked him to say what colour they were by this time. Cue blustering about him using his 'judgement' and no more mention of the ticket.

Thing is, I pass either him or one of his colleagues at the same place every day. Change route? Make a complaint? Just leave it and hope I'm not going to be stopped to explain myself every single morning as I pass a green light?

P.S. sorry for long first post, and thanks for all the good advice I've had from this board as I've lurked my way through my first few months of commuting.

Helmet cam?

Starmer

Hmm, I've been promising myself not to spend all my 'no more trains' savings on bike-related gubbins, but it does sound like a good idea.

jrtek98

You know this could be the start of something good. Long overdue!

asprilla

Paul E wrote:

mar_k wrote:

Can I ask if you actualy drive a vehicle?
Well if you do I will say that a bus or lorry is slightly harder to stop than a car, infact i would go as far to say hugely harder.
The thing with the ASL is it moves the stop line about 8ft further away from the traffic lights.
So lets say I am approaching the lights in my lorry which weighs 40ton when loaded and the lights now turn amber which means stop. Effectively the lights combined with the ASL has given me a shorter stopping distance since the stop line behind the ASL is 8ft away from lights.
That 8ft may not seem alot but it is huge when trying to safely slow a heavy vehicle without performing an emergency stop. There for it is some times not possible to avoid stopping in the ASL and by stopping in the ASL still means I am able to stop before the lights.
I have tried my best to explain this in a way the shows what I mean but I fear it may not come across as clear as I would like.
I would be more than happy for anyone doubting the above to take a ride in my lorry for a few hours when I am in town so your able to see exactly what I mean

You should be anticipating for the stop line being 8ft further forward not for it 8ft further back, then you would have no problem being able to stop, if you can't stop before the stop line wherever it is, then you are going to fast for the road and the conditions. (yes I do drive too)

The bold bit is where you technically ran a red light.

My thoughts too. If the position of the line makes a difference the surely the position of the light does as well. If the light is on the otherside of the junction then does that mean you are likely to stop on the other side of the second stop line?

noodles71

Starmer wrote:

Also had a bit of an odd encounter with City of London Police this week. There's a set of traffic lights on Aldgate, just west of Aldgate East tube, and a police box just beyond them. I approached the lights while they were green, and they stayed green as I went through. Not even so much as a hint of amber. So I got a surprise when the policeman leaped off the pavement in front of me yelling "Cyclist, stop!" He asked my why I'd gone through a red light, I said I hadn't, it was green and we went round in circles like that for a while. He then said that he'd been planning on letting me go with some advice, but due to the attitude I had taken (fairly polite, no swearing but adamant that the light was green), he would be issuing a ticket.

Now, he was facing the back of the traffic lights as I went through them, so I have no idea how he determined what colour was displayed to traffic coming towards them. So I asked him to do his magic trick again, and we both looked at the back of the lights and I asked him to say what colour they were by this time. Cue blustering about him using his 'judgement' and no more mention of the ticket.

Thing is, I pass either him or one of his colleagues at the same place every day. Change route? Make a complaint? Just leave it and hope I'm not going to be stopped to explain myself every single morning as I pass a green light?

P.S. sorry for long first post, and thanks for all the good advice I've had from this board as I've lurked my way through my first few months of commuting.

It was that intersection I came across them this morning although these guys were on bikes. Instead of heading down Aldgate I was probably coming out of the street (Jewry St) you were accused of running the red on. Not sure where they came from cause they just appeared behind me, normally I'm quite observant of what is around. Your prat was probably watching the lights over the other side of the road heading into and around Aldgate station thinking they were linked up (which they are not). Those lights are only linked to the 1st pedestrian crossing over Aldgate as you head west. I definitely think they are on a operation to rack up some stats. Am surprised as only last week they were in Broadgate lecturing anyone who came to ask about making themselves visible to commercial vehicles and not getting caught up by left turning vehicles. I'm confused now as the prat today said I should have been exactly where they were warning people not to be last week.

mar_k

Paul E wrote:

mar_k wrote:

Can I ask if you actualy drive a vehicle?
Well if you do I will say that a bus or lorry is slightly harder to stop than a car, infact i would go as far to say hugely harder.
The thing with the ASL is it moves the stop line about 8ft further away from the traffic lights.
So lets say I am approaching the lights in my lorry which weighs 40ton when loaded and the lights now turn amber which means stop. Effectively the lights combined with the ASL has given me a shorter stopping distance since the stop line behind the ASL is 8ft away from lights.
That 8ft may not seem alot but it is huge when trying to safely slow a heavy vehicle without performing an emergency stop. There for it is some times not possible to avoid stopping in the ASL and by stopping in the ASL still means I am able to stop before the lights.
I have tried my best to explain this in a way the shows what I mean but I fear it may not come across as clear as I would like.
I would be more than happy for anyone doubting the above to take a ride in my lorry for a few hours when I am in town so your able to see exactly what I mean

You should be anticipating for the stop line being 8ft further forward not for it 8ft further back, then you would have no problem being able to stop, if you can't stop before the stop line wherever it is, then you are going to fast for the road and the conditions. (yes I do drive too)

The bold bit is where you technically ran a red light.

Im afraid you are completey wrong,
When approaching a set of lights at the correct speed there comes a point when stopping at the 1st line with an ASL is not an option. You say you drive, are you saying that when you approach lights and they turn to amber, No matter how close you are to the stop line you are still able to stop behind it?


Im not going to keep replying to the thread as some of you just do not seem capable of understanding or maybe you dont want to.

There comes a point when stopping is not an option, like I say its all down to your position on the road and how much progress you have made.

I do not speed, I drive at the speed limit ALL of the time. my vehicle is fitted with a Tacho Graph which is checked weekly, our vehicles are also fitted with live tracking devices which show our current location and the speed I am traveling at.
Speeding is not an option if I want to retain my job.


If you were in my position and you approach a set of lights which change to amber doing say 25mph in a 30 zone,
You are roughly 3-4ft away from the 1st stopline what would you do? There is no physical way of stopping at the line even though I am under the limit and there is not a chance of continuing across the junction as the lights would deffinately be red, I ask you, what would you do?

mar_k

Asprilla wrote:

Paul E wrote:

mar_k wrote:

Can I ask if you actualy drive a vehicle?
Well if you do I will say that a bus or lorry is slightly harder to stop than a car, infact i would go as far to say hugely harder.
The thing with the ASL is it moves the stop line about 8ft further away from the traffic lights.
So lets say I am approaching the lights in my lorry which weighs 40ton when loaded and the lights now turn amber which means stop. Effectively the lights combined with the ASL has given me a shorter stopping distance since the stop line behind the ASL is 8ft away from lights.
That 8ft may not seem alot but it is huge when trying to safely slow a heavy vehicle without performing an emergency stop. There for it is some times not possible to avoid stopping in the ASL and by stopping in the ASL still means I am able to stop before the lights.
I have tried my best to explain this in a way the shows what I mean but I fear it may not come across as clear as I would like.
I would be more than happy for anyone doubting the above to take a ride in my lorry for a few hours when I am in town so your able to see exactly what I mean

You should be anticipating for the stop line being 8ft further forward not for it 8ft further back, then you would have no problem being able to stop, if you can't stop before the stop line wherever it is, then you are going to fast for the road and the conditions. (yes I do drive too)

The bold bit is where you technically ran a red light.

My thoughts too. If the position of the line makes a difference the surely the position of the light does as well. If the light is on the otherside of the junction then does that mean you are likely to stop on the other side of the second stop line?

Sorry guys your wrong.................

And here is why. Hopefully this will be the end to this silly argument.

taken from the highway code
it clearly states if the light is red and I am ober the 1st line I must stop in the ASL.




178

Advanced stop lines. Some signal-controlled junctions have advanced stop lines to allow cycles to be positioned ahead of other traffic. Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the way or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction ahead is blocked. If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white line at the time that the signal goes red, you MUST stop at the second white line, even if your vehicle is in the marked area. Allow cyclists time and space to move off when the green signal shows.

[Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10, 36(1) & 43(2)]

asprilla

The argument isn't silly, it relates to cyclist safety.

I'm entirely aware of the highway code rules and it states that you must stop at the first line if the light is red or amber and at the second if you've already crossed the first. My argument is that people treat the ASL as a breaking buffer zone when they should be treating it as part of the junction. If there was only one line and no ASL then you would do your best to stop before it and possiblly moderate your speed earlier to anticipate the red light so you could stop in time so as not stop in the junction.

mar_k

Im not disputing that some people use it as a Buffer zone as you put it,
I am just trying to express my experience of them and the FACT that its not always possible to stop behind the 1st line even when the correct speed is used as there comes a point where its not an option,
Yes some people do completely abuse ASL's but I cant speak for them. I am only speaking on behalf of my self

My understanding on the highway code suggests that you stop at the 1st line REACHED at the point the lights change to Amber or Red, well if I am already past the 1st line then the 2nd line is infact the 1st line REACHED at the point the light change to Amber or Red, and there for I have not broken any law.

asprilla

That also means you have a braking distance of 8'?

mar_k

Asprilla wrote:

That also means you have a braking distance of 8'?

I didnt say that did I?
Please go back and read it again. I said if I was approx 3-4ft from the 1st stop line and yes my stopping distance at 25mph in a 40ton lorry is more than 4ft unless I perform an emergency stop which could cause an accident behind me and possibly cause damage to the load I am carrying, so I would invade the space of the ASL

But yes I will add a safe stopping distance for a 40ton HGV traveling at 25mph would be around 8ft, maybe a tad more

asprilla

Amber means stop unless it is unsafe to do so, if you cross the first line when the light is amber the you are breaking the law. According to the law, unless it were dangerous, the only way you can cross the first line is if the light is green. I guess it depends on the difference in the interpretation between dangerous and uncomfortable.

sketchley

The key point in all this is that the junction ahead must be blocked. Nothing to do with stopping distance. Simply fact is if the junction ahead is clear and you cross the first line on green or amber you are not going to stop if the light changes read in the 10ft or so of the asl. The conditions were stopping in the asl are legal are moot at best.

mar_k

Sketchley wrote:

The key point in all this is that the junction ahead must be blocked. Nothing to do with stopping distance. Simply fact is if the junction ahead is clear and you cross the first line on green or amber you are not going to stop if the light changes read in the 10ft or so of the asl. The conditions were stopping in the asl are legal are moot at best.

Sorry but your way off!
at what point has anyone said the junction ahead is blocked?
I am not arguing if it had gone to Amber as went over the 1st line, Yes I would proceed across the junction if it was clear as that would be safe to do so.............


I have stated so many times over and over again but once more so its clear.............

If I was APPROACHING the lights still not at or over the 1st line and the lights change then I have to stop even if it means stopping in the ASL>



If the junction was blocked then yes of course I would have stopped and waited behind the ASL until the junction was clear, so yes breaking and stopping distance has everything to do with it

sketchley

mar_k wrote:

Sketchley wrote:

The key point in all this is that the junction ahead must be blocked. Nothing to do with stopping distance. Simply fact is if the junction ahead is clear and you cross the first line on green or amber you are not going to stop if the light changes read in the 10ft or so of the asl. The conditions were stopping in the asl are legal are moot at best.

Sorry but your way off!
at what point has anyone said the junction ahead is blocked?
I am not arguing if it had gone to Amber as went over the 1st line, Yes I would proceed across the junction if it was clear as that would be safe to do so.............


I have stated so many times over and over again but once more so its clear.............

If I was APPROACHING the lights still not at or over the 1st line and the lights change then I have to stop even if it means stopping in the ASL>



If the junction was blocked then yes of course I would have stopped and waited behind the ASL until the junction was clear, so yes breaking and stopping distance has everything to do with it

Highway code rule 178, defines the conditions under which a vehical might end up stopped in an asl. Specifcally when the the junction ahead is blocked. Please look it up....

mar_k

think you read that wrongly fella

it clearly states you must AVOID blocking the marked area at other times and then gives an example of when the marked area should be AVOIDED, which is when the junction ahead is blocked.


this the bit your talking about?



Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the first white line reached if the lights are amber or red and should avoid blocking the way or encroaching on the marked area at other times, e.g. if the junction ahead is blocked

sketchley

Your right if I was reading it wrong. However, now i'm reading it right it's even worse you shouldn't block the asl if the junction is blocked. And you should only stop at the 2nd Lin if the lights turn red while in the asl. My observation on this is for the lights to turn red while us the asl if the junction isn't blocked you must if crossed the first line on amber and amber means stop. In light of this explain when it's ok to stop in asl......

mar_k

Sketchley wrote:

Your right if I was reading it wrong. However, now i'm reading it right it's even worse you shouldn't block the asl if the junction is blocked. And you should only stop at the 2nd Lin if the lights turn red while in the asl. My observation on this is for the lights to turn red while us the asl if the junction isn't blocked you must if crossed the first line on amber and amber means stop. In light of this explain when it's ok to stop in asl......

If your approaching lights and the thurn amber yes it means stop if its safe to do so.
All vehicles have a stopping distance, if the lights on amber before you get to the 1st line you try to stop at it.
Taking into consideration the stopping distance it is possible you go over the 1st stop line and enter the ASL.

In those situations you are perfectly legal to use the ASL as a motorist as its impossible to instantly stop a vehicle for many reasons,

The key point here is Its impossible to stop instantly as no vehicle has the breaking power to do so and even if it had, doing so would most likely cause an accident.

Vehicles have to be stopped in a safe and controlled manor.

asprilla

I refer you to my original point about treating the the first and second lines differently. People are a lot happier to cross the first than they would the second if identical stopping time was required. They simply don't see the first as of equal value to the second.

mar_k

Asprilla wrote:

I refer you to my original point about treating the the first and second lines differently. People are a lot happier to cross the first than they would the second if identical stopping time was required. They simply don't see the first as of equal value to the second.

Some people yes, but not all of us. I was merely pointing out that some times there is no option.

Some cyclists believe Red lights do not apply to them aswell but that does not mean all of you

sketchley

There is 10ft of asl, explain how you could cross the first one on amber because it was not safe to do but the stop at red on 2nd line, that'll be one heck of an emergency stop....

mar_k

Sketchley wrote:

There is 10ft of asl, explain how you could cross the first one on amber because it was not safe to do but the stop at red on 2nd line, that'll be one heck of an emergency stop....

I really cant keep expalaining this mate.

IF YOU ARE APPROACHING THE 1ST LINE AND THEY TURN AMBER, the lights are amber before you reach the 1st line but you are already braking at this point and slowing down, you may not be able to stop at the 1st line due to the breaking distance of the vehicle. however the extra 10ft of ASL would be suffiecent space to bring the vehicle to a stop without jumping the red
breaking hard could cause following vehicles to run into the back of me, people dont drive round performing emergency stops every time the lights change do they?
If the ASL was not there and the lights turnt amber as you got rather close to the stop line you would be allowed and expected in most causes to proceed over the junction.

You don't drive at all do you?

sketchley

mar_k wrote:

Sketchley wrote:

There is 10ft of asl, explain how you could cross the first one on amber because it was not safe to do but the stop at red on 2nd line, that'll be one heck of an emergency stop....

I really cant keep expalaining this mate.

IF YOU ARE APPROACHING THE 1ST LINE AND THEY TURN AMBER, the lights are amber before you reach the 1st line but you are already braking at this point and slowing down, you may not be able to stop at the 1st line due to the breaking distance of the vehicle.
breaking hard could cause following vehicles to run into the back of me, people dont drive round performing emergency stops every time the lights change do they?
If the ASL was not there and the lights turnt amber as you got rather close to the stop line you would be allowed and expected in most causes to proceed over the junction.

You don't drive at all do you?

I see why we disagree, my point is if you are that late breaking for amber you are likely to proceed through even if second line goes red. Your specific example is a very small edge case where it might happen to the point of being statsically unlikely, albeit possible.

mar_k

If you have already gone over the 1st stop line and the lights turn Amber then yes you would have to precede across the 2nd line also and over the junction, that would be completely legal as you would not have enough space to come to a safe stop.

optimisticbiker

mar_k wrote:

But yes I will add a safe stopping distance for a 40ton HGV traveling at 25mph would be around 8ft, maybe a tad more

Sorry, don`t know where you got that from, but ROSPA measured the stopping distances if various trucks, laden & unladen, and the emergency stopping distance of a 40t hgv unladen is about 10m (Google it), that's 33 feet, so if you were just starting to brake at the 1st line you'd end up halfway over most junctions.

IMHO the width of the ASL is such a small part of the normal stopping distance, encroachment into it is usually either lazy driving or indifference except in a very limited number of edge cases.

mar_k

Scrap that..........


I have finished replying to this thread now.
I have tried to put my point across, weather that is accepted or not does not really matter,
But please if you see me driving round london in my HGV please say hello.

I have wrote bikeradar on both doors in the dirt so you will easily spot me, Edited as I was being rather silly

optimisticbiker

mar_k wrote:

I am specificly talking about the lights changing on approach and it not being possible to stop outside the ASL

As a driver of many vehicles, large and small, i find it hard to agree with you on this. Other than the edge case of the lights going to amber within your emergency stopping distance which no one is arguing about, then you should be approaching a junction well within your ability to stop. The presence or not of an ASL is simply a small percentage of your actual stopping distance and you should therefore be able to stop before it.

Fact is, most drivers don't, especially taxis, busses and WMV, and its nothing to do with stopping distance. It is to do with complete indifference. Witness the taxi yesterday that wandered into the ASL with the lights at red and then signalled left even tho he was in the RH lane and I and 2 other bikes were taking primary in the LH lane in the ASL; and he still tried to left hook us when the lights changed, hooting like we were at fault somehow!

mar_k

I dont disagree that there are people who abuse them, I was only this morning sat behind a guy who did stop behind the ASL but ended up in it as he was creeping forward slowly.
I can only talk for my self, I do most of the time stop behind the ASL in my lorry but there has been occassions where I have gone into them aswell.