Classic
Comments
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Is Chav not relative too for the same reason? The person in Eton might see everyone on the council estate as a chav, but to those living in it's only the family at the end of the road who are.
So is "Paki" relative too? An ignorant racist might think all people of asian origin are "Pakis" but a more knowledgable racist (an Indian sikh perhaps) may be only using the term to attack a pakistani.
So, no - 'chav' is not relative, well at least, it isnt in the same way that 'snobbish' or 'stuck up' are. These are personality traits (perceived or actual). They may belong traditionally belong to a class of society - they may not.
Just as feckless, drunken and lazy don't necessarily just apply to 'chavs' - in fact, they could be used to parody the upper classes... ho ho ho.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Headhuunter wrote:Bassjunkieuk wrote:clarkey cat wrote:Rick - thanks for the reply. Understand. Maybe you'll stop using the word 'chav' one day and give up the hate. I hope so.
Bassjunkie - what could they do (in theory) to stop them being labelled a chav?
I know this is going to be hugely pandering to the stereotype but it could be things like getting a job, stop wearing sports clothing, move off a council estate. Understandably the first and last might be a bit difficult since the whole world went to sh!t but I can't help but think that with all the schemes and programmes you keep seeing for disadvantaged people (how many programmes reward people who are already achieving well?) there should be some way they can better themselves through training etc.
But then I think it's a bit of an attitude problem, not helped by the welfare system in this country, that means that they are better off NOT working. Heck I live in social housing and I'm extremely grateful and have done since I got together with my current missus. At first we qualified for the "everything on a plate" type benefits but as I started working more and wanting to better myself these benefits where taken away (usually a lot faster then the money I was earning to replace them....). I didn't want to live my life with the state paying my way. I wanted to be able to support my family and if that meant going without some luxuries then so be it. No designer clothes, foreign holidays or having the latest electrical gadgets.
And equally if we're going to ban the word "chav", how about other indistinct insults like "posh b@stard", "stuck up tw@t", "snob" etc... What should people branded with these names do about their situation? Give away their money? Move into a council flat?
I'm more lenient with chat like that towards the privileged. It's not great, but they're in a position to suck it up.
I don't agree, a stereotype is a stereotype, however as far as I'm concerned these are all insults to an indefinable, unquantifiable section of society unlike insults based on race or sexual orientation....Do not write below this line. Office use only.0 -
Headhuunter wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:
I'm more lenient with chat like that towards the privileged. It's not great, but they're in a position to suck it up.
I don't agree, a stereotype is a stereotype, however as far as I'm concerned these are all insults to an indefinable, unquantifiable section of society unlike insults based on race or sexual orientation....
I'd say it's pretty definable. It's just less absolute.
It's all a little arbitrary anyway, are these definitions. We could discriminate against people with blue eyes but we don't.
There's nothing wrong with stereotypes per se. It's only when they're used badly.
After all, all of us would struggle without some stereotypes. Think about our chat about SATC and chariots.0 -
HH - to a degree I agree with you.
'Chav' or 'Chavvy' is now pretty much a term for any thing that doesn't accord with the elegant and subtle way of life of the middle classes. For example, in Bassjunkie's case - he just wants to see someone get a job, get off the council estate and get out of a tracksuit - but I wouldn't be surprised if that same guy who now drives a lowered bimmer, wears some chunky bling and has an ugly (but massive) house would still be called a 'chav'.
Calling someone a 'chav' is saying: "you are below me"
Calling someone a 'snob' is saying "you think you're above me, but you're not: we're equal"
I think they are different.0 -
Around the time of the riots I got the impression that "chav" was synonymous with the term "undeserving poor"0
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TailWindHome wrote:Is one player calling another a "Black ****" in the heat of a football match racist?
besides the "basdart" bit, surely its just stating the obvious?
like "you.. black handsome devil you" would that be deemed to be racist?
just asking.....Keeping it classy since '830 -
Sorry but I'm enjoying Sketchley's double entendre tangent so will add these:· Pat Glenn, weightlifting commentator –
"And this is Gregoriava from Bulgaria. I saw her snatch this morning and it was amazing!"
· New Zealand Rugby Commentator –
"Andrew Mehrtens loves it when Daryl Gibson comes inside of him."
· Ted Walsh, Horse Racing Commentator -
"This is really a lovely horse. I once rode her mother."
· Harry Carpenter at the Oxford-Cambridge boat race 1977 –
"Ah, isn't that nice. The wife of the Cambridge President is kissing the Cox of the Oxford crew."
· US PGA Commentator – (commenting on Arnold Palmer)
"One of the reasons Arnie is playing so well is that, before each tee shot, his wife takes out his balls and kisses them. Oh my god!!!!! What have I just said?!!!!"
· Carenza Lewis about finding food in the Middle Ages on Time Team Live said:
"You'd eat beaver if you could get it."
· A female news anchor who, the day after it was supposed to have snowed and didn't, turned to the weatherman and asked -
"So Bob, where's that eight inches you promised me last night?"
Not only did HE have to leave the set, but half the crew did too, because they were laughing so hard!
· Steve Ryder covering the US Masters -
"Ballesteros felt much better today after a 69."
· Clair Frisby talking about a jumbo hot dog on Look North said -
"There's nothing like a big hot sausage inside you on a cold night like this."
· Mike Hallett discussing missed snooker shots on Sky Sports -
"Stephen Hendry jumps on Steve Davis's misses every chance he gets."
· Ken Brown commentating on golfer Nick Faldo and his caddie Fanny Sunneson lining-up shots at the Scottish Open -
"Some weeks Nick likes to use Fanny, other weeks he prefers to do it by himself."0 -
mudcow007 wrote:TailWindHome wrote:Is one player calling another a "Black ****" in the heat of a football match racist?
besides the "basdart" bit, surely its just stating the obvious?
like "you.. black handsome devil you" would that be deemed to be racist?
just asking.....
If he's insulting him, why is he calling him black?
That's the point.
He's not stating his ethnicity. He's hurling abuse at him. He seems to think black is a term to use for abuse.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:mudcow007 wrote:TailWindHome wrote:Is one player calling another a "Black ****" in the heat of a football match racist?
besides the "basdart" bit, surely its just stating the obvious?
like "you.. black handsome devil you" would that be deemed to be racist?
just asking.....
If he's insulting him, why is he calling him black?
That's the point.
He's not stating his ethnicity. He's hurling abuse at him. He seems to think black is a term to use for abuse.
Touche'Keeping it classy since '830 -
Hmm, i think clarkey is gettin ga mite touchy over Chav. There are many people who are proud to call themselves chavs. Although it is strongly linked to epol;el from poorer backgrounds I view it in a similar way to when Posh, or "hipster" or "Rahh" (sp?) is used to describe people.We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
ddraver wrote:Hmm, i think clarkey is gettin ga mite touchy over Chav. There are many people who are proud to call themselves chavs. .
That's appropriation.
Chav's a negative term.
You could say the same for 'nigga'.
They use the term themselves, in part, because they're told that's what they are, but also to try and take some heat out of the term.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Headhuunter wrote:Bassjunkieuk wrote:clarkey cat wrote:Rick - thanks for the reply. Understand. Maybe you'll stop using the word 'chav' one day and give up the hate. I hope so.
Bassjunkie - what could they do (in theory) to stop them being labelled a chav?
I know this is going to be hugely pandering to the stereotype but it could be things like getting a job, stop wearing sports clothing, move off a council estate. Understandably the first and last might be a bit difficult since the whole world went to sh!t but I can't help but think that with all the schemes and programmes you keep seeing for disadvantaged people (how many programmes reward people who are already achieving well?) there should be some way they can better themselves through training etc.
But then I think it's a bit of an attitude problem, not helped by the welfare system in this country, that means that they are better off NOT working. Heck I live in social housing and I'm extremely grateful and have done since I got together with my current missus. At first we qualified for the "everything on a plate" type benefits but as I started working more and wanting to better myself these benefits where taken away (usually a lot faster then the money I was earning to replace them....). I didn't want to live my life with the state paying my way. I wanted to be able to support my family and if that meant going without some luxuries then so be it. No designer clothes, foreign holidays or having the latest electrical gadgets.
And equally if we're going to ban the word "chav", how about other indistinct insults like "posh b@stard", "stuck up tw@t", "snob" etc... What should people branded with these names do about their situation? Give away their money? Move into a council flat?
I'm more lenient with chat like that towards the privileged. It's not great, but they're in a position to suck it up.
How on earth do you come to that conclusion (on an academic level)? How does being "privileged" make you immune to derogatory terms? Why should anyone just "suck it up"? You're showing your double standards again Rick.0 -
W1 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:I'm more lenient with chat like that towards the privileged. It's not great, but they're in a position to suck it up.
How on earth do you come to that conclusion (on an academic level)? How does being "privileged" make you immune to derogatory terms? Why should anyone just "suck it up"? You're showing your double standards again Rick.
Like clockwork
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ddraver
touchy in the way that Evra and Ferdinand are a bit touchy? (last 2 paragraphs?)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... -game.html
I mean there are worse things than being called a 'chav' after all...0 -
notsoblue wrote:W1 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:I'm more lenient with chat like that towards the privileged. It's not great, but they're in a position to suck it up.
How on earth do you come to that conclusion (on an academic level)? How does being "privileged" make you immune to derogatory terms? Why should anyone just "suck it up"? You're showing your double standards again Rick.
Like clockwork
I do have double standards, no doubt.
I justify it like this: the underprivileged need more support, to balance out the natural imbalance against them.
The over-privileged, since they're in that position, need no support, since they get more than their fair share anyway.
And by support I don't mean the doll etc before you go off on that one.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:mudcow007 wrote:TailWindHome wrote:Is one player calling another a "Black ****" in the heat of a football match racist?
besides the "basdart" bit, surely its just stating the obvious?
like "you.. black handsome devil you" would that be deemed to be racist?
just asking.....
If he's insulting him, why is he calling him black?
That's the point.
He's not stating his ethnicity. He's hurling abuse at him. He seems to think black is a term to use for abuse.
I'm not sure that it is far to characterise these comments as racist in nature, there is no evidence to suggest that this was racially motivated.
It may seem to be splitting hairs but I think there is a huge difference“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
To me, the term chav isn't a term for a particular socio economic group, it's a lifestyle statement. Most people who live in council houses aren't chavs.
A chav to me wears sports kit, eats crap food, doesn't want to be educated etc Innit.0 -
A chav to me wears sports kit, eats crap food, doesn't want to be educated etc Innit.
isn't that a 'teenager'?0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:notsoblue wrote:W1 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:I'm more lenient with chat like that towards the privileged. It's not great, but they're in a position to suck it up.
How on earth do you come to that conclusion (on an academic level)? How does being "privileged" make you immune to derogatory terms? Why should anyone just "suck it up"? You're showing your double standards again Rick.
Like clockwork
I do have double standards, no doubt.
I justify it like this: the underprivileged need more support, to balance out the natural imbalance against them.
The over-privileged, since they're in that position, need no support, since they get more than their fair share anyway.
And by support I don't mean the doll etc before you go off on that one.
OK. When I was a kid I got beat up pretty badly by a gang of lads from the local council estate because I was posh. Six onto one and I had never even spoken to them as far as I remember. Is that OK because I got more than my fair share?0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:Headhuunter wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:
I'm more lenient with chat like that towards the privileged. It's not great, but they're in a position to suck it up.
I don't agree, a stereotype is a stereotype, however as far as I'm concerned these are all insults to an indefinable, unquantifiable section of society unlike insults based on race or sexual orientation....
I'd say it's pretty definable. It's just less absolute.
It's all a little arbitrary anyway, are these definitions. We could discriminate against people with blue eyes but we don't.
There's nothing wrong with stereotypes per se. It's only when they're used badly.
After all, all of us would struggle without some stereotypes. Think about our chat about SATC and chariots.
Oh yes, I'm not saying stereotypes are avoidable or always negative, the question for me is whether chav is akin to negative use of gay or paki or whether it's more like calling someone and idiot or d!ckhead... I don't believe chav is as innocuous in terms of targetting a particular group as the latter but equally chav does not immediately bring to mind a definable group which has no choice in what it is....Do not write below this line. Office use only.0 -
UndercoverElephant wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:notsoblue wrote:W1 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:I'm more lenient with chat like that towards the privileged. It's not great, but they're in a position to suck it up.
How on earth do you come to that conclusion (on an academic level)? How does being "privileged" make you immune to derogatory terms? Why should anyone just "suck it up"? You're showing your double standards again Rick.
Like clockwork
I do have double standards, no doubt.
I justify it like this: the underprivileged need more support, to balance out the natural imbalance against them.
The over-privileged, since they're in that position, need no support, since they get more than their fair share anyway.
And by support I don't mean the doll etc before you go off on that one.
OK. When I was a kid I got beat up pretty badly by a gang of lads from the local council estate because I was posh. Six onto one and I had never even spoken to them as far as I remember. Is that OK because I got more than my fair share?
I had exactly the same, though the 'posh' bit was never uttered. Only it was more often than not.
Obviously beatings are different. I'm talking about PC bias > i'm not talking assaulting or criminal activity. It's PC, and social attitudes.0 -
Ok the etc is shows no respect for others or their property, has an attitude (not the magazine obviously)
My son's mum was brought up on a council state in Brixton, her grandfather used to run with the Richardsons in the 60s, but my teenage son is nothing like a chav, he has a lovely personality and all the old ladies at my mum's care home (she has Alzheimers) love him to death. Yes he probably overdoes the sportswear sometimes, buy having said that he plays football and rugby.0 -
Rick Chasey wrote:UndercoverElephant wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:notsoblue wrote:W1 wrote:Rick Chasey wrote:I'm more lenient with chat like that towards the privileged. It's not great, but they're in a position to suck it up.
How on earth do you come to that conclusion (on an academic level)? How does being "privileged" make you immune to derogatory terms? Why should anyone just "suck it up"? You're showing your double standards again Rick.
Like clockwork
I do have double standards, no doubt.
I justify it like this: the underprivileged need more support, to balance out the natural imbalance against them.
The over-privileged, since they're in that position, need no support, since they get more than their fair share anyway.
And by support I don't mean the doll etc before you go off on that one.
OK. When I was a kid I got beat up pretty badly by a gang of lads from the local council estate because I was posh. Six onto one and I had never even spoken to them as far as I remember. Is that OK because I got more than my fair share?
I had exactly the same, though the 'posh' bit was never uttered. Only it was more often than not.
Obviously beatings are different. I'm talking about PC bias > i'm not talking assaulting or criminal activity. It's PC, and social attitudes.
Ah so we're playing the "arbitrary point on a line" game with this one as to what's OK and what's not. So jokes and ribbing fine, beatings bad in this case. How would you feel about shouting in the street by a gang? Or not being allowed into certain establishments? There's a line somewhere, where would you place it?0 -
UndercoverElephant wrote:
Ah so we're playing the "arbitrary point on a line" game with this one as to what's OK and what's not. So jokes and ribbing fine, beatings bad in this case. How would you feel about shouting in the street by a gang? Or not being allowed into certain establishments? There's a line somewhere, where would you place it?
It's not that. I'm interested in the causes of social problems. I tend to believe that in a market based society they are caused by significant economic and social alienation. The term 'chav' interestingly, covers both.
I understand that there are social problems. Being beaten up or heckled obvious isn't right, but that's not what's being discussed here.
We're talking about use of language and its social impact, or at least, what it reveals about our society, and how we deal with different groups of people. Like the term Ghey, or Chav, or gay stereotypes or whatever.0 -
CRICKETER Neil Fairbrother hit a single during a Durham v Lancashire
match, inspiring Bobby Simpson to observe: "With his lovely soft hands
he just tossed it off."--
Chris
Genesis Equilibrium - FCN 3/4/50 -
You sure its because you were posh UE?
I think youths from the 'local council estate' are pretty indiscriminate with their beatings. I had my fair share - and I wasnt posh at all. In fact - I was from the local council estate!
It was probably because I was a gobshite.0 -
clarkey cat wrote:ddraver
touchy in the way that Evra and Ferdinand are a bit touchy? (last 2 paragraphs?)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/artic ... -game.html
I mean there are worse things than being called a 'chav' after all...
Sorry, what's that got to do with Chav? did Terry call him a black Chav or something (if he did I would nt know - not my sport)?We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
clarkey cat wrote:You sure its because you were posh UE?
I think youths from the 'local council estate' are pretty indiscriminate with their beatings. I had my fair share - and I wasnt posh at all. In fact - I was from the local council estate!
It was probably because I was a gobshite.
Actually, that's the thing - I'm not that posh either. I went to the same comprehensive school as them, but as my Granddad was in the Army, my Mum grew up in boarding school. Therefore, she has a posh accent, which I then inherited. I probably seemed posh to them, though. And yes, the "Get the posh bastard!" was a give-away.0 -
Headhuunter wrote:a definable group which has no choice in what it is....
I think this is the crux of the matter with Chavs (or the word Chav). I frequently used to goth up for some nights out, I had dreads and a big beard, the whole bit... (I looked like a fat version of the front man of InFlames if you re interested)
BUT - when I needed to get a job I cut all that off, put on a suit and made myself look respectable.
Cav and Peta are decent examples actually, they re neither of them poor but god do they dress like Chavs!!We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
Sorry, what's that got to do with Chav? did Terry call him a black Chav or something (if he did I would nt know - not my sport)?
don't worry about it."Get the posh bastard!"
Heh heh - that would do it.0
