Classic

Headhuunter

DonDaddyD wrote:

Headhuunter wrote:

clarkey cat wrote:

How does the word "Chav" sit with the forumites?

It was going around alot during the riots. Just wondered if its okay or not to use?

Chav doesn't really demonise a specific race or identifiable minority though, it's like calling someone "stuck up" or something... Gay, nigger, paki etc do target a particular group however. I always though pikey was the same but someone pointed out that it refers specifically to gypsies who it can be argued are an identifiable race in their own right. However I had never heard the expression pikey until it was used in that film by Brad Pitt (forgotten the name..)

^^Ironic that^^


Gay ain't a race or ethnicity. It's a group of people with a specific sexual orientation. (not saying you're saying Gay is a race/ethnicity).

CHAV ain't a race or ethnicity. CHAV is a term to describe an identifiable minority.

Just saying.

No, being gay is not a "race" but gay people are identifiable... You're gay or you ain't. How do you specifically define a chav? I've had conversations about this before... one person argued that a black person could not be a chav but I disagreed. Is a chav someone who ALWAYS lives in social housing? Or simply someone from a "working class" background? Chav is a very rough allocation of a sector of society....

rick_chasey

clarkey cat wrote:

clarkey cat wrote:
How does the word "Chav" sit with the forumites?

It was going around alot during the riots. Just wondered if its okay or not to use?



I'd suggest that depends on what side of the political fence you sit.

Toynbee really goes to town on the word

and here's the telegraph's response; there's nothing wrong with having a go at chavs

Interesting post Rick - but how does that sit with your above post?

There's obviously a 'chav' discourse. Instinctively I back the less privelidged and people with fewer opportunities. I was banging the ' there are socio-economic/political reasons why riots like this happen' drum during the riots, and was pointing the finger at economic and social exclusion.

Ultimately I feel people who are hated on and discriminated against, whether by class, gender, race, sexuality, whatever, need to be helped, since the odds are against them.

Having said all that, I regularly use 'chav' day to day, and probably join in on the hating on a personal level. I regularly got beaten up by kids off sink estates at school and my neighbour who does pretty awful things (won't say on the internet in case) I regularly call a 'pikey'.

That doesn't make it right, but it illustrates the problem < even me, who is all hyper PC about everything (from a reasonably academic stance, I like to think...) still uses terms like that.

Bassjunkieuk

I always thought you could identify chavs by their excessive Burberry ;-)

I think the point for me with the word chav is that it refers to a member of society who in theory "could" do something about being labelled a chav...as opposed to people who fall under the other terms that have been described here can't who (easily) do anything to alter it.

BTW the Brad Pitt film with the pikey is Snatch ;-)

clarkey cat

Rick - thanks for the reply. Understand. Maybe you'll stop using the word 'chav' one day and give up the hate. I hope so.

Bassjunkie - what could they do (in theory) to stop them being labelled a chav?

Bassjunkieuk

clarkey cat wrote:

Rick - thanks for the reply. Understand. Maybe you'll stop using the word 'chav' one day and give up the hate. I hope so.

Bassjunkie - what could they do (in theory) to stop them being labelled a chav?

I know this is going to be hugely pandering to the stereotype but it could be things like getting a job, stop wearing sports clothing, move off a council estate. Understandably the first and last might be a bit difficult since the whole world went to sh!t but I can't help but think that with all the schemes and programmes you keep seeing for disadvantaged people (how many programmes reward people who are already achieving well?) there should be some way they can better themselves through training etc.

But then I think it's a bit of an attitude problem, not helped by the welfare system in this country, that means that they are better off NOT working. Heck I live in social housing and I'm extremely grateful and have done since I got together with my current missus. At first we qualified for the "everything on a plate" type benefits but as I started working more and wanting to better myself these benefits where taken away (usually a lot faster then the money I was earning to replace them....). I didn't want to live my life with the state paying my way. I wanted to be able to support my family and if that meant going without some luxuries then so be it. No designer clothes, foreign holidays or having the latest electrical gadgets.

Headhuunter

Bassjunkieuk wrote:

clarkey cat wrote:

Rick - thanks for the reply. Understand. Maybe you'll stop using the word 'chav' one day and give up the hate. I hope so.

Bassjunkie - what could they do (in theory) to stop them being labelled a chav?

I know this is going to be hugely pandering to the stereotype but it could be things like getting a job, stop wearing sports clothing, move off a council estate. Understandably the first and last might be a bit difficult since the whole world went to sh!t but I can't help but think that with all the schemes and programmes you keep seeing for disadvantaged people (how many programmes reward people who are already achieving well?) there should be some way they can better themselves through training etc.

But then I think it's a bit of an attitude problem, not helped by the welfare system in this country, that means that they are better off NOT working. Heck I live in social housing and I'm extremely grateful and have done since I got together with my current missus. At first we qualified for the "everything on a plate" type benefits but as I started working more and wanting to better myself these benefits where taken away (usually a lot faster then the money I was earning to replace them....). I didn't want to live my life with the state paying my way. I wanted to be able to support my family and if that meant going without some luxuries then so be it. No designer clothes, foreign holidays or having the latest electrical gadgets.

And equally if we're going to ban the word "chav", how about other indistinct insults like "posh b@stard", "stuck up tw@t", "snob" etc... What should people branded with these names do about their situation? Give away their money? Move into a council flat?

rick_chasey

Headhuunter wrote:

Bassjunkieuk wrote:

clarkey cat wrote:

Rick - thanks for the reply. Understand. Maybe you'll stop using the word 'chav' one day and give up the hate. I hope so.

Bassjunkie - what could they do (in theory) to stop them being labelled a chav?

I know this is going to be hugely pandering to the stereotype but it could be things like getting a job, stop wearing sports clothing, move off a council estate. Understandably the first and last might be a bit difficult since the whole world went to sh!t but I can't help but think that with all the schemes and programmes you keep seeing for disadvantaged people (how many programmes reward people who are already achieving well?) there should be some way they can better themselves through training etc.

But then I think it's a bit of an attitude problem, not helped by the welfare system in this country, that means that they are better off NOT working. Heck I live in social housing and I'm extremely grateful and have done since I got together with my current missus. At first we qualified for the "everything on a plate" type benefits but as I started working more and wanting to better myself these benefits where taken away (usually a lot faster then the money I was earning to replace them....). I didn't want to live my life with the state paying my way. I wanted to be able to support my family and if that meant going without some luxuries then so be it. No designer clothes, foreign holidays or having the latest electrical gadgets.

And equally if we're going to ban the word "chav", how about other indistinct insults like "posh b@stard", "stuck up tw@t", "snob" etc... What should people branded with these names do about their situation? Give away their money? Move into a council flat?

I'm more lenient with chat like that towards the privileged. It's not great, but they're in a position to suck it up.

clarkey cat

Yes, you're right - you do hugely pander to a stereotype.

However, you do identify that the three things you'd like to see them do is (i) get a job, (ii) stop wearing sports clothing, and (iii) move off a council estate. You've identified (i) and (iii) are in practice pretty difficult to do... so is it just the sports clothing that offends you?

And even if a 'chav' did get a job and move off the council estate - what about the ones that are left? Are they even worse 'chavs'?

rjsterry

I've understood pikey to refer specifically to Irish Travellers as opposed to, say, Romani gypsies. Some interesting info here on the derivations of the various names (derogatory or otherwise) here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Traveller

Mind you, if the difficulty with 'chav' is that there isn't a precise definition, most racial/ethnic descriptions aren't as precise as we like to think.

clarkey cat

HH - are you trolling now?

Bassjunkieuk

Headhuunter wrote:

And equally if we're going to ban the word "chav", how about other indistinct insults like "posh b@stard", "stuck up tw@t", "snob" etc... What should people branded with these names do about their situation? Give away their money? Move into a council flat?

Fully agree, however I don't think they necessarily have the same negative suggestions as chav but equally they are all used by one group of people to label another group of people.

clarkey cat

So, if I was a massive racist could I excuse my use of the N word because someone had called me a 'white bastard?'

I don't think the two carry the same 'demonising' characteristics. Just like 'chav' and 'snob' don't. You know they don't. Don't undermine a serious conversation.

clarkey cat

Fully agree, however I don't think they necessarily have the same negative suggestions as chav but equally they are all used by one group of people to label another group of people.

Incorrect. 'stuck up / snob etc' is entirely relative. Someone on a council estate may think his neighbour is stuck up because he has net curtains. Someone from Eton may think his mate is stuck up because he will only travel in a Rolls Royce.

MonkeyMonster

Rick Chasey wrote:

MonkeyMonster wrote:

is it correct/a good thing etc. to stand up for someone elses "rights" without asking them if they want you to?

valid points.

what if a person or group of people who you were defending asked you to stop for ever.

and blue I mean rights in a very loose way in line with this current discussion - ie person Z person asking group a to stop calling group b a name even if all people in group b have no issue with it at all BUT person Z has issue with it's use.

rick_chasey

MonkeyMonster wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

MonkeyMonster wrote:

is it correct/a good thing etc. to stand up for someone elses "rights" without asking them if they want you to?

valid points.

what if a person or group of people who you were defending asked you to stop for ever.

and blue I mean rights in a very loose way in line with this current discussion - ie person Z person asking group a to stop calling group b a name even if all people in group b have no issue with it at all BUT person Z has issue with it's use.

That entirely depends on what grounds the issue is based upon.

Case by case.

clarkey cat

suppose an example of that MM is beaten wives who do not want assistance from anyone. People may override this wish if they think that the beaten woman isn't completely in control of her decisions ('beaten wife syndrome' for eg.) but if someone quite rationally asked you to stop intervening then I guess you'd have to. I don't know.

MonkeyMonster

i was trying to keep it more on topic with just words being used - nothing physical... [i'm trying to stay on the fence] so with that in mind please answer again.

if the world was truly pc and nothing "offensive" was allowed - it would be a very quiet and polite world and likely a little dull and boring too. What human related jokes don't contain a level of derogatory talk aimed at a or using a trait of a group or type of person?

tailwindhome

Is one player calling another a "Black ****" in the heat of a football match racist?

rick_chasey

MonkeyMonster wrote:

i was trying to keep it more on topic with just words being used - nothing physical... [i'm trying to stay on the fence] so with that in mind please answer again.

if the world was truly pc and nothing "offensive" was allowed - it would be a very quiet and polite world and likely a little dull and boring too. What human related jokes don't contain a level of derogatory talk aimed at a or using a trait of a group or type of person?

Hey, I'm all for being able to say absolutely what you want.

I just think when people say stuff that isn't PC, society should notice, and not just nod along.

Feel free to go around moaning about pakis and queers, but don't expect to not be called up on it by a lot of people.

Teach people WHY it's wrong to use those, and not just 'because it's bad' or 'offensive'. Give them the socio-historical context.

That will stop it.

MonkeyMonster

TailWindHome wrote:

Is one player calling another a "Black ****" in the heat of a football match racist?

exactly.

clarkey cat

offensive is of course entirely subjective - racism, sexism, homophobia etc. concern themselves with attacking people that are at a disadvantage in defending themselves. Its bullying, in short. I find bullying - on all levels - offensive.

If you take the mickey out of your boss while in the canteen with mates is that bullying? It depends of course - but its unlikely.

If you take the mickey out of the disabled girl from accounts while in the canteen with mates is that bullying? Probably.

clarkey cat

Teach people WHY it's wrong to use those, and not just 'because it's bad' or 'offensive'. Give them the socio-historical context.

That will stop it.

Does that mean you'll stop using the term 'chav' now?

rick_chasey

clarkey cat wrote:

Teach people WHY it's wrong to use those, and not just 'because it's bad' or 'offensive'. Give them the socio-historical context.

That will stop it.

Does that mean you'll stop using the term 'chav' now?

Hah, that's an issue that goes a lot deeper in me than a little high-minded PC chat.

clarkey cat

Yes, me too. My mates made me dress up as a 'chav' on my stag do recently (due to working class roots) and we all thought it was hilarious and a great time was had by all and then when I got home I felt really terrible about it. Parodying and mocking a social class that my own mother is a part of and I decided that without going around being a class warrior I'd try and, at least curtail my use of the word - and its prejudices - and maybe even pull a few people up on it. The middle classes are in love with the word - hell the working classes love it too (probably even more so). They are literally the bottom of the pile: good for a kicking by anyone.

Interesting book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chavs-Demonizat ... 184467696X

rick_chasey

clarkey cat wrote:

Yes, me too. My mates made me dress up as a 'chav' on my stag do recently (due to working class roots) and we all thought it was hilarious and a great time was had by all and then when I got home I felt really terrible about it. Parodying and mocking a social class that my own mother is a part of and I decided that without going around being a class warrior I'd try and, at least curtail my use of the word - and its prejudices - and maybe even pull a few people up on it. The middle classes are in love with the word - hell the working classes love it too (probably even more so). They are literally the bottom of the pile: good for a kicking by anyone.

Interesting book:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Chavs-Demonizat ... 184467696X

You'd like this:

http://tigerbeatdown.com/2011/10/08/the ... -of-class/

(it's American, but good).

clarkey cat

Cheers - bookmarked for later.

Now HAVE to do some work... I ain't going back - no way.

sketchley

clarkey cat wrote:

How does the word "Chav" sit with the forumites?

It was going around alot during the riots. Just wondered if its okay or not to use?

Popular use originates in Chatham (my home town) and the website Chatham Girls now defunct unfortunately as it was funny. Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chav) says it has links to Romani words for Boy, Girl and Youth. Growing up in the Medway towns and being careful not to stereotype too much I can see parallels between the two. I can also remember the word being used in slang at school, several years before the Chatham Girls website, at the time it was not a derogatory term, again I can see a parallel with Romani kids here as there was a community near my home and many of them went to same schools as me. Although to say I remember it being used just by them would be pushing it.

So you might want to be careful with that one too!

sketchley

clarkey cat wrote:

Fully agree, however I don't think they necessarily have the same negative suggestions as chav but equally they are all used by one group of people to label another group of people.

Incorrect. 'stuck up / snob etc' is entirely relative. Someone on a council estate may think his neighbour is stuck up because he has net curtains. Someone from Eton may think his mate is stuck up because he will only travel in a Rolls Royce.

Is Chav not relative too for the same reason? The person in Eton might see everyone on the council estate as a chav, but to those living in it's only the family at the end of the road who are.

sketchley

Back to Double Entendres for a moment.

MICHAEL Buerk watching Phillipa Forrester cuddle up to a male astronomer
for warmth during BBC1's UK eclipse coverage remarked: "They seem cold
out there, they're rubbing each other and he's only come in his shorts."

notsoblue

MonkeyMonster wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

MonkeyMonster wrote:

is it correct/a good thing etc. to stand up for someone elses "rights" without asking them if they want you to?

valid points.

what if a person or group of people who you were defending asked you to stop for ever.

and blue I mean rights in a very loose way in line with this current discussion - ie person Z person asking group a to stop calling group b a name even if all people in group b have no issue with it at all BUT person Z has issue with it's use.

Hmm, well I'd have to ask why person Z is getting so would up about it if group b has no issue with it. But really, context is everything. I'm mixed race, as is a good friend of mine, (though a different mix), and I jokingly call him a name that an ethnic group in the caribbean would consider very offensive. Its totally fine between the two of us (irony is a convenient figleaf), but I wouldn't dare use the word in front of for example his father, or anyone who would understand the meaning of the word. And thats not me being politically correct at all, its just being polite about the language I use given the audience. Words provoke certain reactions from people. I often use the F-word in normal conversation, but I'm unlikely to do so when I'm talking to my grandma because she would be offended by it. Its a matter of respect and politeness, I guess. Political correctness has nothing to do with it.

Going back to your example though, I think I would sympathise somewhat with person Z if group A were calling group B the n-word. Even if group-B didn't care. Unironically using a word as loaded with meaning as the n-word is pretty odd if you don't intend to cause offence.