Rugby World Cup

benno68

jamesco wrote:

walkingbootweather wrote:

Very disappointed by the result but I have to disagree with Benno, and most of the pundits. It may not have been deliberate or malicious but IMHO Warberton's tackle was certainly dangerous and could have result in a bad injury. Sadly this means he had to go.

+1

It was harsh, but the refs had been instructed to be harsh on foul play - 'think red card and go down from there' - so Rolland was doing exactly as told. Warburton should be kicking himself for putting the ref and his side in that position.

Ok then - it must have been the first dangerous tackle of the tournament - possibly since the RWC began. I don't believe that ANYONE else has been sent off in the RWC for a dangerous tackle. A yellow card certainly.

Warburton made a genuine mistake, did not pile the frog into the ground or deliberately try to injure him. He's got nothing to feel guilty about.

jamesco

Benno68 wrote:

Ok then - it must have been the first dangerous tackle of the tournament - possibly since the RWC began. I don't believe that ANYONE else has been sent off in the RWC for a dangerous tackle. A yellow card certainly.

Warburton made a genuine mistake, did not pile the frog into the ground or deliberately try to injure him. He's got nothing to feel guilty about.

Warburton lifted Clerc up, flipped him over and dropped him to the ground. Whether or not you think that was a mistake (all the ITV commentators agree with you!), it was an awful tackle and just begging to be punished.

Wales came painfully close - one kick would've done it for them

joelsim

I found myself supporting Wales for the first time since Ian Rush scored against Germany!

NZ will walk it now, Wales were the better team.

As Norman Schwarzkopf once said 'Going into battle without the French is like going on a duck shoot without an accordion'.

Quite!

cjcp

jamesco wrote:

walkingbootweather wrote:

Very disappointed by the result but I have to disagree with Benno, and most of the pundits. It may not have been deliberate or malicious but IMHO Warberton's tackle was certainly dangerous and could have result in a bad injury. Sadly this means he had to go.

+1

It was harsh, but the refs had been instructed to be harsh on foul play - 'think red card and go down from there' - so Rolland was doing exactly as told. Warburton should be kicking himself for putting the ref and his side in that position.

*cough* Umaga on O'Driscoll *cough*

It's not really the decision to send him off that bothers me. It's the complete failure to kick the points - I counted 17 missed points. Second RWC in a row we've been knocked out due to poor kicking. And it's very annoying that a pretty average rugby team is in the final and, after a storming tournament, we're now faced with an anti-climax of a final.

Agree that Wales made a complete balls-up of the last five mins.

It's Hook who should kick himself, not Warburton - he's immense.

benno68

jamesco wrote:

Benno68 wrote:

Ok then - it must have been the first dangerous tackle of the tournament - possibly since the RWC began. I don't believe that ANYONE else has been sent off in the RWC for a dangerous tackle. A yellow card certainly.

Warburton made a genuine mistake, did not pile the frog into the ground or deliberately try to injure him. He's got nothing to feel guilty about.

Warburton lifted Clerc up, flipped him over and dropped him to the ground. Whether or not you think that was a mistake (all the ITV commentators agree with you!), it was an awful tackle and just begging to be punished.

Wales came painfully close - one kick would've done it for them

Hey Jamesco - I had to come into work straight after the match so haven't seen the post match views. I agree that our kicking game could have been better, Hook slipped and missed the easiest chance and Halfpenny came so close.

I agree it should have been punished, but a red card was way out of proportion.

Either it's the only dangerous tackle made, or the referee is inconsistent.

benno68

cjcp wrote:

jamesco wrote:

walkingbootweather wrote:

Very disappointed by the result but I have to disagree with Benno, and most of the pundits. It may not have been deliberate or malicious but IMHO Warberton's tackle was certainly dangerous and could have result in a bad injury. Sadly this means he had to go.

+1

It was harsh, but the refs had been instructed to be harsh on foul play - 'think red card and go down from there' - so Rolland was doing exactly as told. Warburton should be kicking himself for putting the ref and his side in that position.

*cough* Umaga on O'Driscoll *cough*

It's not really the decision to send him off that bothers me. It's the complete failure to kick the points - I counted 17 missed points. Second RWC in a row we've been knocked out due to poor kicking. And it's very annoying that a pretty average rugby team is in the final and, after a storming tournament, we're now faced with an anti-climax of a final.

Agree that Wales made a complete balls-up of the last five mins.

It's Hook who should kick himself, not Warburton - he's immense.

Stop talking the French up CJ

Fireblade96

Sorry to see the Welsh go out (even though they spoiled my day last weekend by beating Ireland). The sending off was overkill for that tackle, which should probably have been a yellow card.

Wales could still have won it though if they'd kicked their points - they lost the game rather than France winning it.

ooermissus

Benno68 wrote:

Ok then - it must have been the first dangerous tackle of the tournament - possibly since the RWC began. I don't believe that ANYONE else has been sent off in the RWC for a dangerous tackle. A yellow card certainly.

Two French players were yellow carded for tip tackles in the match against Tonga. The ref was told off at Estebanez's disciplinary hearing for failing to show a red, and the player was banned as if he had been sent off. Ref probably got the same treatment at the other hearing. I am sure that had a bearing on what happened today.

Fabrice Estebanez breached Law 10.4(j).
b. The referee’s decision to award a penalty for that act of foul play was wrong.
c. I uphold the citing complaint.
d. The Player is suspended from all forms of rugby up to and including 24 October 2011.

The ruling is pretty clear:

a. “The player is lifted and then forced or ‘speared” into the ground. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle”
b. The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player’s safety. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.
c. For all other types of dangerous lifting tackle it may be considered a penalty or yellow card is sufficient.”

Hard to see how the tackle didn't fall under . Tough on the Welsh, but that's what happens when the authorities decide to try and drive a piece of foul play from the game.

benno68

ooermissus wrote:

Benno68 wrote:

Ok then - it must have been the first dangerous tackle of the tournament - possibly since the RWC began. I don't believe that ANYONE else has been sent off in the RWC for a dangerous tackle. A yellow card certainly.

Two French players were yellow carded for tip tackles in the match against Tonga. The ref was told off at Estebanez's disciplinary hearing for failing to show a red, and the player was banned as if he had been sent off. Ref probably got the same treatment at the other hearing. I am sure that had a bearing on what happened today.

Fabrice Estebanez breached Law 10.4(j).
b. The referee’s decision to award a penalty for that act of foul play was wrong.
c. I uphold the citing complaint.
d. The Player is suspended from all forms of rugby up to and including 24 October 2011.

The ruling is pretty clear:

a. “The player is lifted and then forced or ‘speared” into the ground. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle”
b. The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player’s safety. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.
c. For all other types of dangerous lifting tackle it may be considered a penalty or yellow card is sufficient.”

Hard to see how the tackle didn't fall under . Tough on the Welsh, but that's what happens when the authorities decide to try and drive a piece of foul play from the game.

Can't argue with the quotes but I do think that malice and intent should come into the decision. As I'm Welsh I'm sure you appreciate that I feel hard done by and that some of my views are not entirely rational at this difficult time.

We'll be watching touch rugby soon if things keep going along these lines.

Anyone notice that the French guy was in severe pain after the tackle but suddenly came around when he saw the red card. I'll be watching out for dangerous tackles and see who gets their marching orders in the future.

Would he have still been the ref if his name was Alun Rowlands, a Welsh speaker and his old man came from Abercwmboi?

greg66_tri_v2.0

ooermissus wrote:

The ruling is pretty clear:

a. “The player is lifted and then forced or ‘speared” into the ground. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle”
b. The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player’s safety. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.
c. For all other types of dangerous lifting tackle it may be considered a penalty or yellow card is sufficient.”

Hard to see how the tackle didn't fall under . Tough on the Welsh, but that's what happens when the authorities decide to try and drive a piece of foul play from the game.

I've seen that ruling - it comes from a memo from the IRB to referres from 2009, I think.

It divides up lifting tackles into (a) lifting plus forcing the tackled player down (the Umaga/BOD tackle); (b) lifting plus dropping; (c) dangerous lifting (and lowering gently? Fcuk knows).

The memo goes to on emphasise that refs should not take into account the tackler's intention, and that an objective assessment of the tackle should be made. I really find it hard to see how "with no regard to the player's safety" can be judged without reference to the intention of the tackler. It's a very odd rule.

FWIW, on the replay it looked to me that the thing that sparked the handbags was Vincent Clerc rolling around holding his face. He was doing that because Warburton, having dropped Vincent Clerc, then put down his left hand to break his own topple, and (accidentally?) found Vincent Clerc's face with it. IOW, nothing to do with the tackle, and if Warburton's hand had landed elsewhere, I wonder whether there would have been such a fuss/reaction/decision.

itboffin

WTF does this have to do with cycling eh!?

you'll be talking about football & cricket next

SIGH

:evil:

greg66_tri_v2.0

itboffin wrote:

WTF does this have to do with cycling eh!?

you'll be talking about football & cricket next

SIGH

:evil:

Calm down dear. Nursie will be along soon, and she will wheel you round so that you can look out of the window again.

Towards the school playground. Like you like. :twisted:

itboffin

Greg66 wrote:

itboffin wrote:

WTF does this have to do with cycling eh!?

you'll be talking about football & cricket next

SIGH

:evil:

Calm down dear. Nursie will be along soon, and she will wheel you round so that you can look out of the window again.

Towards the school playground. Like you like. :twisted:

funny you should say that, as this morning i was sitting in my kitchen staring out of the window whilst typing rude emails about beerZ and cycling to various "so" called friends

LeDomestiqueTours

Greg66 wrote:

ooermissus wrote:

The ruling is pretty clear:

a. “The player is lifted and then forced or ‘speared” into the ground. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle”
b. The lifted player is dropped to the ground from a height with no regard to the player’s safety. A red card should be issued for this type of tackle.
c. For all other types of dangerous lifting tackle it may be considered a penalty or yellow card is sufficient.”

Hard to see how the tackle didn't fall under . Tough on the Welsh, but that's what happens when the authorities decide to try and drive a piece of foul play from the game.

I've seen that ruling - it comes from a memo from the IRB to referres from 2009, I think.

It divides up lifting tackles into (a) lifting plus forcing the tackled player down (the Umaga/BOD tackle); (b) lifting plus dropping; (c) dangerous lifting (and lowering gently? Fcuk knows).

The memo goes to on emphasise that refs should not take into account the tackler's intention, and that an objective assessment of the tackle should be made. I really find it hard to see how "with no regard to the player's safety" can be judged without reference to the intention of the tackler. It's a very odd rule.

FWIW, on the replay it looked to me that the thing that sparked the handbags was Vincent Clerc rolling around holding his face. He was doing that because Warburton, having dropped Vincent Clerc, then put down his left hand to break his own topple, and (accidentally?) found Vincent Clerc's face with it. IOW, nothing to do with the tackle, and if Warburton's hand had landed elsewhere, I wonder whether there would have been such a fuss/reaction/decision.

It's happened so there's not much point going crazy over it but for what it's worth I think you need to take intent into account here based on the above.

The mismatch in size between Warburton and Clerc coupled with the momentum of Warburton hitting and driving makes lifting him up pretty unavoidable. Once in the air I can't see what your options are. Do you hold on to the player and get a red for driving them into the ground ((a) above) or do you release the player ((b) above)?

Warburton didn't drive him down (spear style) so it was clear he wasn't intentionally aiming to hurt him and he didn't pick him up to full standing height and then drop him so he wasn't aiming to hurt him this way. Seems like a yellow would have been reasonable but hey ho.

Let's see if the ABs choke tomorrow.

ooermissus

It will be interesting to see how long he gets banned for - presumably that will show whether or not the independent judge thinks the ref was too harsh...

ddraver

ooermissus wrote:

It will be interesting to see how long he gets banned for - presumably that will show whether or not the independent judge thinks the ref was too harsh...

Usually if you re punished for an offence in the game then the sentence is not adjusted as that is judged punishment enough...which has it's own problems!

Trouble is that if you re following the letter of the law and believe it's a yellow, then effectively you believe it's a red as that is the punishment for up ending some one. It's like saying,well he handles the ball on the floor, but he did nt mean to so it's only a scrum... The penalty for handling the ball on the floor is a penalty

There's no rule X.X clause A saying "but it's OK if the player is a nice guy"

There is always a choice to smash someone, or just bring them to ground, Warburton, unfortunately, got this one wrong...

ooermissus

ddraver wrote:

ooermissus wrote:

It will be interesting to see how long he gets banned for - presumably that will show whether or not the independent judge thinks the ref was too harsh...

Usually if you re punished for an offence in the game then the sentence is not adjusted as that is judged punishment enough...which has it's own problems!.

Not sure that's right - there'll be a hearing I think, and quite soon.

http://www.rugbyworld.com/news/rugby-wo ... l-process/

ddraver

maybe that's the rugby of old then.....

cjcp

That's how to drop a goal.

I hope France are stuffed, absolutely stuffed.

jamesco

cjcp wrote:

That's how to drop a goal.

+1 Ice-cold (both). Good luck Wales, should've been in the final, but hopefully history will repeat on Friday.

ddraver

That was just a lesson of how to play rugby! McCaw was amazing! Even the Aussies in the bar were applauding the All Blacks.

I don't think Wales or France (would) have a chance against that but we ll see which France turn up next week! Hollywood Final Confirmed, Hollywood storyline....?

cjcp

ddraver wrote:

That was just a lesson of how to play rugby! McCaw was amazing! Even the Aussies in the bar were applauding the All Blacks.

I don't think Wales or France (would) have a chance against that but we ll see which France turn up next week! Hollywood Final Confirmed, Hollywood storyline....?

I'll disagree a little with that bit, and not because I'm Welsh. Honestly.

I think the Welsh pack is better - quicker to the breakdown and quicker at recycling the ball. And I think our backs are better. But I guess we'll find out on Friday; I think Wales's problem will be whether they can get themselves up for the mach.

But I think we'd have lost to NZ in the final. What a contrast between Cooper and Crudden. The former looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights, whereas the latter could easily have frozen trying to emerge from Carter's shadow, but he was impressive.

There's a part of me that wants NZ to win because Carter *isn't* playing - I've not liked him since he put in a bad tackle in a match against Wales in 2009, wasn't punished for it, knew he'd done wrong and seemed to be smirking about it.

And how do the ABs kleep finding these full backs? Wilson, Cullen, Muliaina and now Dagg?

ddraver

I was refering to the AB's specifically, my bad. Think Friday will be rubbish as usually neither team gives a monkey's....

cjcp

ddraver wrote:

I was refering to the AB's specifically, my bad.

So was I.

clarkey cat

Wonder what the reaction of that tackle would have been if it was James "The Power" Haskell on Shane Williams?

Shane Williams interview after Saturday's game showed him to be a true gent. What a player he's been over the years. Sad to see the Welsh go out.

The real travesty of this World Cup was France's late try against Tonga. If they hadn't scored that it would be England playing on Sunday.

iPete

Oh so close now and it had to be the bogey team, the French.

No dodgy food on Saturday night please!!

secretsqirrel

clarkey cat wrote:

Wonder what the reaction of that tackle would have been if it was James "The Power" Haskell on Shane Williams?

Shane Williams interview after Saturday's game showed him to be a true gent. What a player he's been over the years. Sad to see the Welsh go out.

The real travesty of this World Cup was France's late try against Tonga. If they hadn't scored that it would be England playing on Sunday.

Agree totally about Shane. But also if he reacted the same as Clerc after a tackle we would know it was serious?

There is nothing stopping England playing on Sunday if they want to. But Eden Park won't be available

Monkeypump

As much as I'd laugh to see them lose, there is no way the All Blacks are going to throw it away now.

Any chance of them choking has gone. I will, however, be supporting our Gallic friends.

walkingbootweather

You have got to support NZ over the French - for a start their wine is much better

clarkey cat

I'll be supporting France too. Can't see them getting anything out of the game but might chuck a tenner on it anyway.