Stage 18 SPOILER

mididoctors

not so long ago the 20% rule didn't even include the point penalty...

Val Thorens 1994 anyone?

moray_gub

Rick Chasey wrote:

Take that Andy haters!

+1

As Hugh Cornwell once said ................"and there sure are a lot of them around here."

Jez mon

mz__jo wrote:

I think Desgranges would have excluded them!

He would have been more concerned about the lack of fixed wheel bikes

I knew there would be moaning about Cav not making the cut off time, but the rules are pretty clear, and they state that Cav can continue with a points deduction.

Don't see why the tour would want to do anything about the situation either, by making it so that Cav et al. could not get through a tour, they wouldn't have the grandstand sprint finish in Paris, and they would lose out on the green jersey competition being about the best sprinters in the world going head to head.

afx237vi

mididoctors wrote:

not so long ago the 20% rule didn't even include the point penalty...

Val Thorens 1994 anyone?

What happened at Val Thorens?

The one I remembered reading this thread was the 1998 Tirreno-Adriatico. 125 riders all excluded after missing the time limit on a flat stage:

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/ ... ta982.html

That's harsh.

mididoctors

afx237vi wrote:

mididoctors wrote:

not so long ago the 20% rule didn't even include the point penalty...

Val Thorens 1994 anyone?

What happened at Val Thorens?

The one I remembered reading this thread was the 1998 Tirreno-Adriatico. 125 riders all excluded after missing the time limit on a flat stage:

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/ ... ta982.html

That's harsh.

94 hard route and many DNFs

effectively a go slow by the laughing group while indurain and pantani battled up front...



no exclusions abdu had green

blazing_saddles

Crankbrother wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Crankbrother wrote:

FFS ... It's not hard to sort out ... Just don't allow anyone in either the points or mountains classification to keep ANY of their points if they miss the cut ... Cav can ride to Paris and win on TCE but not win green ... It's just plain cheating to be dq'd fair and square and then allowed to win a classification ...

Under your rules, would Rojas be allowed to get help from any of the four Movistar riders who were also in that group to beat the time cut tomorrow? Would he be allowed to follow the wheels of any other rider than was in that group? Wouldn't it be unfair if he did?

Why does the 9% cut of rule have to be enforced rigourously, while the 20% rule has to be ignored? You can't pick and choose the rules you like.

+ one hell of a lot.
A whole lot of inconsistent rubbish being posted against one man.
88 riders in that group, but lets pick a punishment that doesn't effect 87.
Plain daft.

Against the only man in the race who will win a classification after missingthe time limit ... Don't confuse yourself with assumed Cav bashing ... I'm happy for him to race on along with Thor et al ... Just not at the expense of an actual,competition ...

MC himself spoke of 'tainted' wins ...

Btw Blazing, you come across as an asswipe ... my 'inconsistent rubbish' is merely an opinion shared to encourage debate ... Rather that than act like a snidey know it all ...

And how does calling someone an asswipe encourage debate, exactly?
Don't get upset and take things personally.
You are not alone in being fair or inconsistent.

How is punishing 87 riders by excluding them from competitions that they are not involved, is an actual punishment?
One for all and all for one.....................and all that.

Omar Little

The disqualification rules should by amended a bit, not so much to get the cut off point extended but instead maybe they be based on perhaps the first 10 riders or so to cross the line. Having it based on the winner leaves it open to riders being chucked out the Tour based on what might be an artificially fast time. Like in 2006, imagine being disqualified for being outside the time limit on the Morzine stage that Landis won but having been inside the time limit set by Sastre in second place nearly 6 minutes down. By the time Landis failed his dope test it would have been too late for the disqualified riders.

(i have no idea if this actually happened to any riders just an example of a lone winner having a significant time gap and then getting banned)

Crankbrother

By your reckoning younwouldn't jail a homeless man for murder as you'd just be putting a roof over his head ...

RichN95.

Crankbrother wrote:

Against the only man in the race who will win a classification after missingthe time limit ... Don't confuse yourself with assumed Cav bashing ... I'm happy for him to race on along with Thor et al ... Just not at the expense of an actual,competition ...

But you're applying things selectively without any regard for the team dynamic

With your rules what happens in the next stages?

Would Rui Costa be allowed to pace Rojas up Alpe d'Huez?
Would Cancellara be allowed to ride for the Schlecks on the Galibier?
Would Burghart be allowed to chase for Evans?
Can Gautier get bottles for Voeckler?
Are Roy and Gilbert allowed in the break?
Can Martin and Millar do the Time Trial?

All those people missed the cut but can effect things for others.

Your idea is a nonsense just because you think Rojas deserves the green jersey for climbing marginally faster. (And had Andy Schleck not blown up in the last 2km he would probably have missed the cut too). It would make a mockery of the race.

inkyfingers

Just watched the highlights and been thinking about tomorrow. I think we'll see Andy attacking early on the Alpe tomorrow to try and break Evans before Frank launches the big attack to try and win the tour. Even though Frank had a day off today and Evans buried himself it will still be tough for Frank to gain the time he needs before the TT though...think it will be another good day tomorrow.

Crankbrother

RichN95 wrote:

Crankbrother wrote:

Against the only man in the race who will win a classification after missingthe time limit ... Don't confuse yourself with assumed Cav bashing ... I'm happy for him to race on along with Thor et al ... Just not at the expense of an actual,competition ...

But you're applying things selectively without any regard for the team dynamic

With your rules what happens in the next stages?

Would Rui Costa be allowed to pace Rojas up Alpe d'Huez?
Would Cancellara be allowed to ride for the Schlecks on the Galibier?
Would Burghart be allowed to chase for Evans?
Can Gautier get bottles for Voeckler?
Are Roy and Gilbert allowed in the break?
Can Martin and Millar do the Time Trial?

All those people missed the cut but can effect things for others.

Your idea is a nonsense just because you think Rojas deserves the green jersey for climbing marginally faster. (And had Andy Schleck not blown up in the last 2km he would probably have missed the cut too). It would make a mockery of the race.

In that case gice AC his time back from his crash, give Evans his time loss to Andy today back, give Johnny H the mountains jersey and be done with it ... Racing, no need for that ...

TMR

Lots of crying on here tonight. Tissue anyone?

ddraver

You re being an idiot now crankbrother...

Let's just reiterate...THEYVE DONE NOTHING THAT ISN'T CLEARLY STATED IN THE RULES...if you don't know the rules, it does nt make them wrong!

bicyclepirate

awesome ride by Andy, didn't even suspect he had it in him. Huge error by CE letting him go. I actually think Frank might win, he just needs a good day tomorrow. How bad is his time trial?

Bakunin

I'm an Andy hater...but it was a great ride.

Evans is one tough SOB. I hope he wins it.

bigmat

bicyclepirate wrote:

awesome ride by Andy, didn't even suspect he had it in him. Huge error by CE letting him go. I actually think Frank might win, he just needs a good day tomorrow. How bad is his time trial?[/quote]

Terrible. Its just terrible. I think we have maximum 3 potential winners now (and that's being kind to Tommy V). Funny thing is, I'm not convinced Andy is climbing much better than Evans at the moment, Evans lost time today due to a massive tactical foul up which he managed to redeem enough to stay in contention. Real question will be how much today took out of them both, and who recovers best. Could be a classic!

RichN95.

BigMat wrote:

bicyclepirate wrote:

awesome ride by Andy, didn't even suspect he had it in him. Huge error by CE letting him go. I actually think Frank might win, he just needs a good day tomorrow. How bad is his time trial?

Terrible. Its just terrible. I think we have maximum 3 potential winners now (and that's being kind to Tommy V). Funny thing is, I'm not convinced Andy is climbing much better than Evans at the moment, Evans lost time today due to a massive tactical foul up which he managed to redeem enough to stay in contention. Real question will be how much today took out of them both, and who recovers best. Could be a classic!

It's improved quite a bit in the last couple of years though. Most noticably in this result at last year's Tour de Suisse.

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/ra ... ceid=17672

He can't be relied on to lose 5 minutes any more.

Bronzie

inkyfingers wrote:

Just watched the highlights and been thinking about tomorrow. I think we'll see Andy attacking early on the Alpe tomorrow to try and break Evans before Frank launches the big attack to try and win the tour. Even though Frank had a day off today and Evans buried himself it will still be tough for Frank to gain the time he needs before the TT though...think it will be another good day tomorrow.

Agree. Andy even said something to this effect earlier in the week:
"It's not if we can win it, it's how we can win it..........even if it means one of us sacrificing his chances"

I reckon Frank will need to be at least 1'30" clear of Cadel by close of play tomorrow to stand a chance in the TT.

Bronzie

Oh, and one final thing before I slope off to bed.............

Pierre Rolland...........what a domestique........the only one able to hang in there with the "heads of state"TM of the Tour de France.

AndySimpson

Thought I'd make my first post in the forum on some nice, non-contentious subject....
Re: Cavendish and being outside the cut-off, I think the rules are spot on; there's a consequence for those outside, while recognising that if enough people are outside it isn't about one rider 'taking it easy' or 'being weak' but that enough riders were at that level to make it acceptable in relation to the lead riders.
I agree with whoever suggested amendments to how the cut off time is worked out; either based on a halfway point, or on a lead group, 10th rider etc., rather than one lead exceptional rider.
There is to my mind an unfairness in someone being so good at their discipline that they can dq so many other riders from the race, sprinters and their lead outs can't do that to climbers just by the nature of the sport. The tour isn't just about climbers or the overall winner and complex rules that retain the complete spectacle and are fair, while still penalising 'slowness' and preventing out and out sandbagging, seem the best solution.
As for Shleck, he did really well, though I don't agree it was a big risk; with Frank behind and teammates ahead it was just good tactics that had strong plan B; if caught, Frank could go. The mistake I think Evans made was counting on Sanchez, Contador and Basso being strong enough to chase, as it turned out they weren't being lazy, they just weren't up to it. If he'd known that, he may have jumped straight away when Shleck went.
Once the gap stretched out he did the only thing he could, wait until the last 10km and then ride as fast as he could to close it down to a TT-catching gap. The difficulty for Evans being that he hasn't got a jump to get away and chase alone, he had to do it knowing he'd tow anyone who could follow behind him, which made it as brave as what Shleck did and pretty impressive as no-one apart from Frank S could go past him.
For tomorrow it seems likely that Frank might jump on Alpe D'Huez, and Evans might well be left to chase again, risking being jumped by the brother. As some have said, if Evans can keep both brothers within 1.30 ish he *should* be bale to take them on Saturday's TT.
Having said all that, what's the betting on Contador and Evans jumping away early on and two-upping it all the way to the summit, Contador getting the stage and Evans the jersey?!

cornoyemade

Neil McC wrote:

Cav loses 20 points

LOL!

cornoyemade

Crankbrother wrote:

FFS ... It's not hard to sort out ... Just don't allow anyone in either the points or mountains classification to keep ANY of their points if they miss the cut ... Cav can ride to Paris and win on TCE but not win green ... It's just plain cheating to be dq'd fair and square and then allowed to win a classification ...

I'm no Cav fan or hater ... Just looking for fair play to guys like Rojas who put in a shift ... Any less deserving of his jersey than TV?

+1

cornoyemade

Cavendishy.... do you see this *

That is one big Asterisk after your name if you win the green jersey this year.

BWAHHAHAHAHAHAHA

loving it. the only thing that would be better would be seeing Cavendishy lose the jersey by a few points and then hear his cries and excuses for the next year.

BWAHHAHAHAHAHAH! BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

ROFLMOA!

thank you and good night!

cornoyemade

cornoyemade

FJS wrote:

Alan Peiper agrees
the time limit on the Alpe d'Huez stage is Cav's main threat for green: http://www.sporza.be/cm/sporza/wielrenn ... raf_Peiper . Not necessarily being thrown out, but also points deduction if let back in after finishing outside the time limit. He says it was a 'hellish struggle' for Cav to finish within the time limit on the Plateau de Beille. He also absolutely denies any hanging from cars, and mentions there's constantly a commissaire near Cav on motor filming him. Peiper's Dutch is absolutely fluent btw

It was great yesterday to see Cav make a statement and come in solo just a minute or so behind the Schlecks, but in the end, if he made a big physical effort yesterday in reaction to a minor verbal effort of his competitors, they got what they wanted - saving the energy might have been smarter...

so true. well, you can always count of a Brit to do the dumb thing.

ddraver

sing_for_absolution wrote:

ddraver wrote:

sing_for_absolution wrote:

ddraver wrote:

.....and cue coronymede with another breathtakingly stupid comment!!

I'll be shocked if that's the case. His idol Thor finished in the same group mwahaha 8)

I'm sorry SfA, can you ever recall reality getting in the way of his posts?

I clung to the hope it might. Clearly this has never been the case?

Dude this is the guy that accused Cavo f being a sociopath, presumable he's picked up a few tips having spent so much time in Psych wards himself - reality to him is like Neverland is to us![/quote]

Bad form to quote myself but, @SfA - Yeah dude we called it!!

So much wrong/contradictory/absurd with the above I don't have the data allowance to post it all!! Is your country defaulting and being taken over by the Chinese cos you voted in a load of religious nutcases starting to depress you coronymede? You get used to not being a superpower quickly, don't worry your little head about it!

Jez mon

The posters who dislike Cavendish forget how many other green jersey rivals were in the group. It's not like Cav is the only sprinter who can't climb

The first 10 in the points as of yesterday...

1 Mark Cavendish (GBr) HTC-Highroad 300 pts
2 Jose Joaquin Rojas Gil (Spa) Movistar Team 285
3 Philippe Gilbert (Bel) Omega Pharma-Lotto 230
4 Thor Hushovd (Nor) Team Garmin-Cervelo 215
5 Cadel Evans (Aus) BMC Racing Team 180
6 Edvald Boasson Hagen (Nor) Sky Procycling 153
7 André Greipel (Ger) Omega Pharma-Lotto 150
8 Tyler Farrar (USA) Team Garmin-Cervelo 121
9 Mickaël Delage (Fra) FDJ 102
10 Jérémy Roy (Fra) FDJ 87

As far as I can see Rojas and Evans are the only guys who would have kept their points.

As far as Cav being stupid...well maybe what he did a few stages ago was bloody minded. But in stage 18 he finished WITHIN THE GRUPPETTO which is all you expect from him anyway...

Pokerface

If it was anyone else leading the Green Jersey competition and they got docked points, I doubt people here would be screaming for them to be kicked out of the race.

It's just because so many knobberz here hate Cav and can't bear to see him succeed.

Christ, didn't EBH miss the cut yesterday too? The rules are the rules and he was deducted points rightly. Why all the drama?!

Move on. Nothing to see here.

ddraver

Fun to wind the yanks up tho innit!

camerone

ddraver wrote:

Fun to wind the yanks up tho innit!

except this particular yank is clearly too stupid to be wound up.

its in the rules. clear as water. no ambiguity. not as if Cav was only one outside and they ignored the rules. anyone who thinks anything unfair or untoward has been done is a complete and utter idiot