Stage 18 SPOILER
Comments
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mz__jo wrote:Crankbrother wrote:FFS ... It's not hard to sort out ... Just don't allow anyone in either the points or mountains classification to keep ANY of their points if they miss the cut ... Cav can ride to Paris and win on TCE but not win green ... It's just plain cheating to be dq'd fair and square and then allowed to win a classification ...
I'm no Cav fan or hater ... Just looking for fair play to guys like Rojas who put in a shift ... Any less deserving of his jersey than TV?
+1.
Except that I think that they should finish the Tour to get anything at all and that the cut-offs should be inviolable - no repechage. It would make teams and Tour management face up to the reality of the somewhat farcical situation that exists at present. And if they have to change the delays to make the thing work, and end the reign of the sprinters' teams on the flat stages it will probably improve the quality of the race (although not everyone would agree with me)
Exactly, HTC had their fun and won when climbers et al could not ... The playing field was fair, not so much now ... A clean sport starts with sporting ethics ...0 -
To quote ianf72 from yesterday's stage:
'If I turn the argument on it's head, some people who've been bust say they used to not feel great the day after a transfusion and felt better the day after. Perhaps this is what happened to Andy? Or perhaps he didn't like the rain? Or is rubbish after a rest day'
If it looks too good to be true, it is too good to be true.0 -
Crankbrother wrote:FFS ... It's not hard to sort out ... Just don't allow anyone in either the points or mountains classification to keep ANY of their points if they miss the cut ... Cav can ride to Paris and win on TCE but not win green ... It's just plain cheating to be dq'd fair and square and then allowed to win a classification ...
Under your rules, would Rojas be allowed to get help from any of the four Movistar riders who were also in that group to beat the time cut tomorrow? Would he be allowed to follow the wheels of any other rider than was in that group? Wouldn't it be unfair if he did?
Why does the 9% cut of rule have to be enforced rigourously, while the 20% rule has to be ignored? You can't pick and choose the rules you like.Twitter: @RichN950 -
+1RichN95 wrote:Crankbrother wrote:FFS ... It's not hard to sort out ... Just don't allow anyone in either the points or mountains classification to keep ANY of their points if they miss the cut ... Cav can ride to Paris and win on TCE but not win green ... It's just plain cheating to be dq'd fair and square and then allowed to win a classification ...
Under your rules, would Rojas be allowed to get help from any of the four Movistar riders who were also in that group to beat the time cut tomorrow? Would he be allowed to follow the wheels of any other rider than was in that group? Wouldn't it be unfair if he did?
A fine comment.0 -
Crankbrother wrote:FFS ... It's not hard to sort out ... Just don't allow anyone in either the points or mountains classification to keep ANY of their points if they miss the cut ... Cav can ride to Paris and win on TCE but not win green ... It's just plain cheating to be dq'd fair and square and then allowed to win a classification ...
I'm no Cav fan or hater ... Just looking for fair play to guys like Rojas who put in a shift ... Any less deserving of his jersey than TV?
How is it cheating? The 20% rule was well known beforehand.0 -
Chris James wrote:To quote ianf72 from yesterday's stage:
'If I turn the argument on it's head, some people who've been bust say they used to not feel great the day after a transfusion and felt better the day after. Perhaps this is what happened to Andy? Or perhaps he didn't like the rain? Or is rubbish after a rest day'
If it looks too good to be true, it is too good to be true.
You do have to wonder how a bloke who got dropped on a cat 2, can then ride 60km solo up a Hors with a 4minute lead on the peloton, and almost without wincing. But hey, im happy to eat my hummble pie tonight, stranger things have happend than a clean rider winning a tour. Untill any evidence crops up, it remains a very positive, attacking and gutsy ride, more so for a shleck, and i congratulate him.0 -
After having made promising come-backs in the battle for general classification the last two days, Alberto Contador (Saxo Bank-Sungard) today probably lost every chance of taking the yellow jersey in stage 18 of this year's race.
Like the other race favourites, the Spaniard did not respond to Andy Schleck's attack on the penultimate climb of the Izoard, but then got dropped from the group of yellow jersey Thomas Voeckler with 1.5km still to go on the final climb of the Galibier.
"It wasn't a good day for me, I just didn't have the strength in the last 10 kilometres," he said in the finish. "I felt a terrible weakness. The last few kilometres were really hard. I don't know if I just blew up - I was able to follow wheels but in the end, I decided to climb at my own rhythm."
Finally, Contador conceded 3:50 to stage winner Andy Schleck and another minute and a half on Voeckler. He is now 4:44 down on general classification and admitted that an overall victory was "practically impossible" for him at this point.
"It's going to be very difficult now to win the Tour for him, certainly," his team manager Bjarne Riis agreed. "Alberto wanted to try to attack, but he didn't have the legs today and he suffered from his knee."
In the beginning of the stage, the Spaniard had to get some anti-inflammatory treatment for his right knee from the race doctor.
Still, Contador was not overly upset with what happened today. "I am already used to experiencing a variety of situations and today was not the saddest day to me."
The Spaniard congratulated Andy Schleck on his stage-winning 60km raid and already turned the page. "Evans, too, did an incredible job and revealed himself. Now, it's important to recover and fill up our energy levels because we spent it all. We already have to think about tomorrow and rest."
Sports director Bradley McGee didn't exclude another bid by Contador to put his mark on this year's race after all. "There's still a few stages left of the Tour and we are here to be a part of it," he said. "Obviously, we have to accept today's defeat as true sportsmen. Andy (Schleck) took a big risk out there and he had the legs to back it up. But I really respect guys like Evans and Voeckler for their effort today. Alberto just didn't have it in him to keep up on the final kilometers."
Graceful in defeat. No moaning here.0 -
Crankbrother wrote:mz__jo wrote:Crankbrother wrote:FFS ... It's not hard to sort out ... Just don't allow anyone in either the points or mountains classification to keep ANY of their points if they miss the cut ... Cav can ride to Paris and win on TCE but not win green ... It's just plain cheating to be dq'd fair and square and then allowed to win a classification ...
I'm no Cav fan or hater ... Just looking for fair play to guys like Rojas who put in a shift ... Any less deserving of his jersey than TV?
+1.
Except that I think that they should finish the Tour to get anything at all and that the cut-offs should be inviolable - no repechage. It would make teams and Tour management face up to the reality of the somewhat farcical situation that exists at present. And if they have to change the delays to make the thing work, and end the reign of the sprinters' teams on the flat stages it will probably improve the quality of the race (although not everyone would agree with me)
Exactly, HTC had their fun and won when climbers et al could not ... The playing field was fair, not so much now ... A clean sport starts with sporting ethics ...
How is that fair?
How many sprinters stages have there been? What chance do "non-sprinters" have of missing the time cut off on flat stages? Its not like the GC riders lose time on these flat stages, it just gives others, ie non climbers, a chance to win and score points.
The difference in the mountains is. teams that win mountain stages can DQ teams/riders that dont.0 -
Pliggett talked about a "Douchy of Luxembourg" and I thought that wasn't a nice way to talk about AndyFckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
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Brilliant and very brave ride by AS could have all went tits up for him and dare i say it the ride of a true champion ©FF, speaking of whom where is he today anyway ? Yesterday as Bertie and his team mate Sanchez wasted energy on a fruitless downhill attack he was shouting about greatness and taking people to pain cave today his boy takes a packet and he strangely absent.Gasping - but somehow still alive !0
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LeicesterLad wrote:
+1RichN95 wrote:Crankbrother wrote:FFS ... It's not hard to sort out ... Just don't allow anyone in either the points or mountains classification to keep ANY of their points if they miss the cut ... Cav can ride to Paris and win on TCE but not win green ... It's just plain cheating to be dq'd fair and square and then allowed to win a classification ...
Under your rules, would Rojas be allowed to get help from any of the four Movistar riders who were also in that group to beat the time cut tomorrow? Would he be allowed to follow the wheels of any other rider than was in that group? Wouldn't it be unfair if he did?
A fine comment.
Under my rules they are EXCLUDED. I think the Tour management needs to address this problem by sticking to the rules they make and ultimately by reviewing the rules concerning high altitude stages so that the situation becomes fairer for all. If the idea is that everyone in the race needs to be capable of passing high altitude stages, then this should be reflected in rigid application of whatever delay they have announced beforehand. The only exception in my mind can be for riders showing exceptional courage after crashes (that are not due to their own stupidity!)0 -
davelakers wrote:Crankbrother wrote:mz__jo wrote:Crankbrother wrote:FFS ... It's not hard to sort out ... Just don't allow anyone in either the points or mountains classification to keep ANY of their points if they miss the cut ... Cav can ride to Paris and win on TCE but not win green ... It's just plain cheating to be dq'd fair and square and then allowed to win a classification ...
I'm no Cav fan or hater ... Just looking for fair play to guys like Rojas who put in a shift ... Any less deserving of his jersey than TV?
+1.
Except that I think that they should finish the Tour to get anything at all and that the cut-offs should be inviolable - no repechage. It would make teams and Tour management face up to the reality of the somewhat farcical situation that exists at present. And if they have to change the delays to make the thing work, and end the reign of the sprinters' teams on the flat stages it will probably improve the quality of the race (although not everyone would agree with me)
Exactly, HTC had their fun and won when climbers et al could not ... The playing field was fair, not so much now ... A clean sport starts with sporting ethics ...
How is that fair?
How many sprinters stages have there been? What chance do "non-sprinters" have of missing the time cut off on flat stages? Its not like the GC riders lose time on these flat stages, it just gives others, ie non climbers, a chance to win and score points.
The difference in the mountains is. teams that win mountain stages can DQ teams/riders that dont.
Yet tney speed to the line in team time trial mode dragging the peleton with them and a GT contender crashes at >3k and has no chance of getting back on and ruining his chance of winning the tour ... sound like something that happens???
Take off your Union Jack underpants and think of the whole picture before typing ...0 -
Dave_1 wrote:Blazing Saddles wrote:Dave_1 wrote:Basso without a blood transfusion=wheelsucker. He should have come to the front and had a go. It was so unfair to leave that to Evans. Still we will end up with a Fuentes client winning or a rider who has never been a half decent climber win the TDF. Today was a lousy day at TDF.
Always nice to get your alternative viewpoint, Dave.
Sorry Blaze..really want Evans to win. Was still trying not to throw something at the TV there. Basso just seemed to hang in there..CE did the graft. Have cooled down now. But who wants a Schlek win?
Then, we are in accord, but stuck with the fact that the tactically inept Schlecks confounded everyone and in the process, wrote this stage into the Tour history book.
I'm afraid Cadel will be feeling the spectre of Alp d'Huez 2008, tonight. He is alone, in being the only real thorn in the side of the Brothers, not quite so Grimm. (tonight)"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
You'd have to expand the time limit somewhat if you were going to knock people out of competitions, over half the race would have been eliminated today!!
On the other hand, the gruppetto times it's rides to just hit the time limit so you'd just have a slower grupeeto rolling in a bit later stopping people getting off the mountain and just generally causing delays. remember the grupetto is still climbing bloody fast, they re not just having a jolly!
Today they miscalculated at the bottom so they missed it by two mins. If you excluded everyone who missed the time cut because the bus driver miscalculated (one man!!) would the race really be any better? Teams could just kill the green jersey off in the first week by sending a 50kg climber up the hill to set a stupidly fast time and then send him home.
Everyone, including movistar, knows the rules and the consequences and they play to those rules. These rules seem to be the best of both worlds!We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
This probably means that I also think the present rules inappropriate to the current Tour. I hope that the direction will do something to improve the situation in the future.
This could well be Cav's last chance to do well in a Tour!0 -
I was impressed with the Shlecks today. Finally they do something. It's made the next few days very interesting.
Rider of the day - Cadel Evans for his charge in the last 10km
Moment of the day - Tommy crossing the line to hold on to his jersey.0 -
Crankbrother wrote:davelakers wrote:Crankbrother wrote:mz__jo wrote:Crankbrother wrote:FFS ... It's not hard to sort out ... Just don't allow anyone in either the points or mountains classification to keep ANY of their points if they miss the cut ... Cav can ride to Paris and win on TCE but not win green ... It's just plain cheating to be dq'd fair and square and then allowed to win a classification ...
I'm no Cav fan or hater ... Just looking for fair play to guys like Rojas who put in a shift ... Any less deserving of his jersey than TV?
+1.
Except that I think that they should finish the Tour to get anything at all and that the cut-offs should be inviolable - no repechage. It would make teams and Tour management face up to the reality of the somewhat farcical situation that exists at present. And if they have to change the delays to make the thing work, and end the reign of the sprinters' teams on the flat stages it will probably improve the quality of the race (although not everyone would agree with me)
Exactly, HTC had their fun and won when climbers et al could not ... The playing field was fair, not so much now ... A clean sport starts with sporting ethics ...
How is that fair?
How many sprinters stages have there been? What chance do "non-sprinters" have of missing the time cut off on flat stages? Its not like the GC riders lose time on these flat stages, it just gives others, ie non climbers, a chance to win and score points.
The difference in the mountains is. teams that win mountain stages can DQ teams/riders that dont.
Yet tney speed to the line in team time trial mode dragging the peloton with them and a GT contender crashes at >3k and has no chance of getting back on and ruining his chance of winning the tour ... sound like something that happens???
Take off your Union Jack underpants and think of the whole picture before typing ...
Wow. Bike riders in cycling really fast shocker?!?!?!?!
That is a ridiculous argument to make. Shall we just have 3 weeks of mountain tops finishes so as not to upset you? (or the Schlecks?)0 -
mz__jo wrote:This probably means that I also think the present rules inappropriate to the current Tour. I hope that the direction will do something to improve the situation in the future.
This could well be Cav's last chance to do well in a Tour!
Yes that's right, cos ASO and the UCI always set the rules according the the Pro Race forum on bikeradar!We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
mz__jo wrote:LeicesterLad wrote:
+1RichN95 wrote:Crankbrother wrote:FFS ... It's not hard to sort out ... Just don't allow anyone in either the points or mountains classification to keep ANY of their points if they miss the cut ... Cav can ride to Paris and win on TCE but not win green ... It's just plain cheating to be dq'd fair and square and then allowed to win a classification ...
Under your rules, would Rojas be allowed to get help from any of the four Movistar riders who were also in that group to beat the time cut tomorrow? Would he be allowed to follow the wheels of any other rider than was in that group? Wouldn't it be unfair if he did?
A fine comment.
Under my rules they are EXCLUDED. I think the Tour management needs to address this problem by sticking to the rules they make and ultimately by reviewing the rules concerning high altitude stages so that the situation becomes fairer for all. If the idea is that everyone in the race needs to be capable of passing high altitude stages, then this should be reflected in rigid application of whatever delay they have announced beforehand. The only exception in my mind can be for riders showing exceptional courage after crashes (that are not due to their own stupidity!)
OR, if half the field can;t make the cut off, then perhaps the cut off calculation should be made a bit less demanding...0 -
RichN95 wrote:Crankbrother wrote:FFS ... It's not hard to sort out ... Just don't allow anyone in either the points or mountains classification to keep ANY of their points if they miss the cut ... Cav can ride to Paris and win on TCE but not win green ... It's just plain cheating to be dq'd fair and square and then allowed to win a classification ...
Under your rules, would Rojas be allowed to get help from any of the four Movistar riders who were also in that group to beat the time cut tomorrow? Would he be allowed to follow the wheels of any other rider than was in that group? Wouldn't it be unfair if he did?
Why does the 9% cut of rule have to be enforced rigourously, while the 20% rule has to be ignored? You can't pick and choose the rules you like.
+ one hell of a lot.
A whole lot of inconsistent rubbish being posted against one man.
88 riders in that group, but lets pick a punishment that doesn't effect 87.
Plain daft."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
I think the point deduction rule is a good balance. It penalises riders so stops the sprinters taking the mick - Cav could lose the green jersey as a result - whilst acknowledging that many riders can't climb fast enough to stay within time. The alternatives are a very high drop out rate which would ruin the spectacle, increasing the cut off percentage or in the worst case more doping to help the riders through.0
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davelakers wrote:Crankbrother wrote:davelakers wrote:Crankbrother wrote:mz__jo wrote:Crankbrother wrote:FFS ... It's not hard to sort out ... Just don't allow anyone in either the points or mountains classification to keep ANY of their points if they miss the cut ... Cav can ride to Paris and win on TCE but not win green ... It's just plain cheating to be dq'd fair and square and then allowed to win a classification ...
I'm no Cav fan or hater ... Just looking for fair play to guys like Rojas who put in a shift ... Any less deserving of his jersey than TV?
+1.
Except that I think that they should finish the Tour to get anything at all and that the cut-offs should be inviolable - no repechage. It would make teams and Tour management face up to the reality of the somewhat farcical situation that exists at present. And if they have to change the delays to make the thing work, and end the reign of the sprinters' teams on the flat stages it will probably improve the quality of the race (although not everyone would agree with me)
Exactly, HTC had their fun and won when climbers et al could not ... The playing field was fair, not so much now ... A clean sport starts with sporting ethics ...
How is that fair?
How many sprinters stages have there been? What chance do "non-sprinters" have of missing the time cut off on flat stages? Its not like the GC riders lose time on these flat stages, it just gives others, ie non climbers, a chance to win and score points.
The difference in the mountains is. teams that win mountain stages can DQ teams/riders that dont.
Yet tney speed to the line in team time trial mode dragging the peloton with them and a GT contender crashes at >3k and has no chance of getting back on and ruining his chance of winning the tour ... sound like something that happens???
Take off your Union Jack underpants and think of the whole picture before typing ...
Wow. Bike riders in cycling really fast shocker?!?!?!?!
That is a ridiculous argument to make. Shall we just have 3 weeks of mountain tops finishes so as not to upset you? (or the Schlecks?)
Welll we ve had 5 or 6 flat stages (only 3 or 4 proper bunch gallop stages) and 6 Mountain stages so what's your point?!We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
in case it was in any doubt, those rules in full (from inrng) - i'm not sure why anyone would think it appropriate to apply the cut off without the exceptions?
http://twitpic.com/5tk0yi0 -
ddraver wrote:You'd have to expand the time limit somewhat if you were going to knock people out of competitions, over half the race would have been eliminated today!!
On the other hand, the gruppetto times it's rides to just hit the time limit so you'd just have a slower grupeeto rolling in a bit later stopping people getting off the mountain and just generally causing delays. remember the grupetto is still climbing bloody fast, they re not just having a jolly!
Today they miscalculated at the bottom so they missed it by two mins. If you excluded everyone who missed the time cut because the bus driver miscalculated (one man!!) would the race really be any better? Teams could just kill the green jersey off in the first week by sending a 50kg climber up the hill to set a stupidly fast time and then send him home.
Everyone, including movistar, knows the rules and the consequences and they play to those rules. These rules seem to be the best of both worlds!
If the rule is that you have an exclusion rule that doesn't exclude I don't see the reason for having an exclusion rule. Either you extend it on altitude stages or you abandon it. Or you apply it and let the teams know that they will have to choose riders capable of passing the delay. However you look at it 88 riders "hors delai" is farcical. Perhaps the direction of the course should clearly communicate a cut-off time based on the bunch time at the half-way mark rather than as a percentage of the winning time (and give the intermediate times) to allow the distanced riders to get in inside an appropriate limit.0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:RichN95 wrote:Crankbrother wrote:FFS ... It's not hard to sort out ... Just don't allow anyone in either the points or mountains classification to keep ANY of their points if they miss the cut ... Cav can ride to Paris and win on TCE but not win green ... It's just plain cheating to be dq'd fair and square and then allowed to win a classification ...
Under your rules, would Rojas be allowed to get help from any of the four Movistar riders who were also in that group to beat the time cut tomorrow? Would he be allowed to follow the wheels of any other rider than was in that group? Wouldn't it be unfair if he did?
Why does the 9% cut of rule have to be enforced rigourously, while the 20% rule has to be ignored? You can't pick and choose the rules you like.
+ one hell of a lot.
A whole lot of inconsistent rubbish being posted against one man.
88 riders in that group, but lets pick a punishment that doesn't effect 87.
Plain daft.
Against the only man in the race who will win a classification after missingthe time limit ... Don't confuse yourself with assumed Cav bashing ... I'm happy for him to race on along with Thor et al ... Just not at the expense of an actual,competition ...
MC himself spoke of 'tainted' wins ...
Btw Blazing, you come across as an asswipe ... my 'inconsistent rubbish' is merely an opinion shared to encourage debate ... Rather that than act like a snidey know it all ...0 -
Take that Andy haters! (Just finished watching it - I realise I'm in the middle of some boirng Cavendish-against-the-world chat and it won't get noticed, but nerrrr)0
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What a great stage. Andy from 60K, Cadel dragging the few up the final climb, Tommy V in agonised clinging on. Epic stuff. More tomorrow please.0
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It's been this way for decades, it's as much part of cycling as sticky bidons, buying races and, dare I say it, doping. And as far as it goes it's pretty minor, and more to the point, fully explained in the rules...
to quote Real Peloton - Only in cycling!We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
- @ddraver0 -
